|
Just imagine a GM having to tell they your players, that their plan to raise all those fallen party members won't work. Suddenly that GM is in a very ugly situation, either he follows an interpretation of the rules (with all those other consequences the come from it) or he uses his best judgement... which might result in some very serious circumstances ...staying serious.There's a reason this is my GM alias. It's my way of staying confident in the face of such situations.
...also, because I am Law. Suck it, players.
Most likely this is a joke, but i find this attitude even n joke form offensive.
You are here to play together under an equal understanding of the rules. Players should understand why you rule a certain way. Saying you are the law and you do not respect that they should understand your ruling I find disgusting.
Now time constraints and communication skills prevent this often. I understand, but I am law is directing excusing poor behavior out of ego and that is not acceptable.
Okay.
|
And to add some more issues, can you use blood money while you are polymorphed ? Do oozes have blood ?
Actually if your BBEG manages to posses the party barbarian for a round (before the group uses their countermeasures) is there anything that prevents the cater from casting blood money to "waste" 24 points of strength damage ? ^^
Blood Money wrote:
For example, a sorcerer with the spell stoneskin prepared could cast blood money to create the 250 gp worth of diamond dust required by that spell, taking 1d6 points of damage and 1 point of Strength damage in the process.
How exactly does a sorcerer have stoneskin "prepaired"? Does he need wizard levels ?If you are capable of receiving strength damage, but the actually damage is prevented by another effect, does the spell even work ?
---
Some of those might be more unlikely than others, and frankly the possession trick is a rather nasty surprise, but yeah that is certainly the bad kind of table variation.
Oozes do not have blood. The bigger question with your example is... does someone who is polymorphed lose having blood if they change to something which does not have blood? As that is not an effect listed in the polymorph rules... Not a blood money specific issue. Any spell or ability which references blood will have an issue here.
If a BBEG posses a party barbarian and the possessed barbarian is hit with any effect that reduces his stats... whose stats are reduced, the possessed barbarian or the unconscious form of the BBEG? That is not a Blood Money question, but a general spell question.
Also, str damage does not happen until a spell with a material component is cast, and it conforms to the cost of that component. You can not simply choose a number."When you cast another spell in that same round, your blood transforms into one material component of your choice required by that second spell. "
The BBEG needs a spell that has a material cost for this to matter.
Editing fail on an Example but not the crunch of the spell is not an issue especially when it is obvious.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
|
And to add some more issues, can you use blood money while you are polymorphed ? Do oozes have blood ?
Actually if your BBEG manages to posses the party barbarian for a round (before the group uses their countermeasures) is there anything that prevents the cater from casting blood money to "waste" 24 points of strength damage ? ^^
Blood Money wrote:
For example, a sorcerer with the spell stoneskin prepared could cast blood money to create the 250 gp worth of diamond dust required by that spell, taking 1d6 points of damage and 1 point of Strength damage in the process.
How exactly does a sorcerer have stoneskin "prepaired"? Does he need wizard levels ?If you are capable of receiving strength damage, but the actually damage is prevented by another effect, does the spell even work ?
---
Some of those might be more unlikely than others, and frankly the possession trick is a rather nasty surprise, but yeah that is certainly the bad kind of table variation.
Oozes do not have blood. The bigger question with your example is... does someone who is polymorphed lose having blood if they change to something which does not have blood? As that is not an effect listed in the polymorph rules... Not a blood money specific issue. Any spell or ability which references blood will have an issue here.
If a BBEG posses a party barbarian and the possessed barbarian is hit with any effect that reduces his stats... whose stats are reduced, the possessed barbarian or the unconscious form of the BBEG? That is not a Blood Money question, but a general spell question.
Also, str damage does not happen until a spell with a material component is cast, and it conforms to the cost of that component. You can not simply choose a number."When you cast another spell in that same round, your blood transforms into one material component of your choice required by that second spell. "
The BBEG needs a spell that has a material cost for this to matter.Editing fail on an Example but not...
Whether or not oozes have blood, does actually matter for a certain rather popular kineticist archetype, so do you have a source for that ?
-Frankly it is not just a polymorph related issue, since blood money does interact weirdly with polymorph effects (since everything that loses contact to the polymorphed body returned to its original form (the question is if this ruins the blood for the blood money spell, since blood money is also a transmutation effect.)Probably will not ruin the spell, but adds another layer of complication.
-
First, the stats aren't reduced, it is straight ability damage, and when it comes to effects like magic jar and the new psychic one, that damage sticks to the host body, just like hp damage.
Secondly, that kind of reading of blood money is a bit messy, action wise, since blood money is an instantaneous effect, and while the blood might still morph into the required component.... in that case an instantaneous transmutation spell, would deal ability damage ...after the effect has ended. That kind of interpretation certainly makes blood money better (since the caster would only suffer the hit point damage, if casting a second spell was prevented by outside sources).
But I feel, that this part of the discussion will lead us nowhere. If you (or anybody else, not excluding myself here) think that an ability works as written, it is hard to change that point of view.
Good luck making the argument, that PFS is better with the spell, than without it. If said my piece already.
|
|
Whether or not oozes have blood, does actually matter for a certain rather popular kineticist archetype, so do you have a source for that ?
-
Frankly it is not just a polymorph related issue, since blood money does interact weirdly with polymorph effects (since everything that loses contact to the polymorphed body returned to its original form (the question is if this ruins the blood for the blood money spell, since blood money is also a transmutation effect.)Probably will not ruin the spell, but adds another layer of complication.
-
First, the stats aren't reduced, it is straight ability damage, and when it comes to effects like magic jar and the new psychic one, that damage sticks to the host body, just like hp damage.
Secondly, that kind of reading of blood money is a bit messy, action wise, since blood money is an instantaneous effect, and while the blood might still morph into the required component.... in that case an instantaneous transmutation spell, would deal ability damage ...after the effect has ended. That kind of interpretation certainly makes blood money better (since the caster would only suffer the hit point damage, if casting a second spell was prevented by outside sources).But I feel, that this part of the discussion will lead us nowhere. If you (or anybody else, not excluding myself here) think that an ability works as written, it is hard to change that point of view.
Good luck making the argument, that PFS is better with the spell, than without it. If said my piece already.
Oozes are usually described as being protoplasmic lifeforms. Large single-celled organisms would not have blood. If you are asking if there is some rule in the game that specifically says that oozes do not have blood? No. But then again could you quote me a rule that says a skeleton has no blood, or an iron golem? Basics of anatomy are quite often left up to the GM to adjudicate with usually between 1-6 sentences of descriptive text to guide them.
It could not 'ruin' the blood by any current rule in the game. A polymorph effect prevents a new polymorph effect from happening(though you can exchange effects by choice) and size effects never stack. But being polymorphed does not make you immune to transmutation effects. Thus no matter what you turn into, so long as you have blood and can take str damage, blood money will still function. No complication in the slightest, I think you were confusing transmutation effects with transmutation(polymorph) effects.
While it is not a 'true' reduction in the statistic like drain, damage does effectively reduce the ability for many statistics. I figured that would be understood.
Also, it is not a 'reading'. I quoted the spell directly, and it specifically says the blood does not transform until you cast the second spell.
You cast blood money just before casting another spell. As part of this spell's casting, you must cut one of your hands, releasing a stream of blood that causes you to take 1d6 points of damage. When you cast another spell in that same round, your blood transforms into one material component of your choice required by that second spell. Even valuable components worth more than 1 gp can be created, but creating such material components requires an additional cost of 1 point of Strength damage, plus a further point of damage for every full 500 gp of the component's value (so a component worth 500–999 gp costs a total of 2 points, 1,000–1,500 costs 3, etc.). You cannot create magic items with blood money.
You only take strength damage if the blood transforms into a material component with a non-negligible value. The blood does not transform into that component until you cast the second spell. Before casting the second spell, there is no value for the component to be and thus no transformation and no strength damage.
The spell prepares the blood, and the blood waits one round for a spell to be cast. If you do not cast a second spell, you only take the 1d6 damage as no transformation happens. I do not see how that is messy.(Also, if something were to interfere with a casting, such as as dispel or damage done, the material component would already be created and thus strength damage done. As the casting had already begun.)
I would hope that it would be hard to change the view on whether something works as it is written to work... otherwise you could literally do anything with any rule by saying it does something other than what it is written as doing. The GM can interpret rules with limited scope in PFS but can not change rules, only judge that which is unclear. The issue usually is belief on what the text means, not literal reading of the words.
I will also say again, I'm not really fighting to keep Blood Money. I don't see it as game breaking, but that is for campaign management to decide. I'm here more to combat misinformation about the spell so that if the spell is to be hated, it is hated for what it does not what people think it does.
|
Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
|
Also, if what you say is true, there would be a MASS pruning of what is allowed in the game. Seriously, like half the game would be banned if it were up to whether or not everyone agreed on how every rule works. A...
I was going to say that half the options in the game would go poof if table variation was the primary issue. Its really hard not to play something where the rules aren't incredibly wishy washy especially with how Pathfinder is written at times.
|
Having read through the thread I see 2 camps and I am personally in both:
1) It nerfs my Necromancer / Buff Wizard / Gish to the point of not being playable
2) It makes high level divine spells way overpowered.
I suggest the following for Campaign and Developer consideration:
Campaign - If Blood Money couldn't be made into a wand and everyone gets back 2pp, issue solved and can be done inside of PFS.
Developer - If Blood Money gets flavorfully errata'd that it can't be used on healing subschool spells, this keeps both with the spirit of the spell and eradicates virtually all of the second camp while preserving the first camp.
Campaign - Let necromancers track undead like other inventory. Then I don't mind paying for every Tom, Dick, and Sally I bring forth to destroy the ancient texts that killed my ancestors.
|
|
Having read through the thread I see 2 camps and I am personally in both:
1) It nerfs my Necromancer / Buff Wizard / Gish to the point of not being playable
2) It makes high level divine spells way overpowered.
I suggest the following for Campaign and Developer consideration:
Campaign - If Blood Money couldn't be made into a wand and everyone gets back 2pp, issue solved and can be done inside of PFS.
Developer - If Blood Money gets flavorfully errata'd that it can't be used on healing subschool spells, this keeps both with the spirit of the spell and eradicates virtually all of the second camp while preserving the first camp.
Campaign - Let necromancers track undead like other inventory. Then I don't mind paying for every Tom, Dick, and Sally I bring forth to destroy the ancient texts that killed my ancestors.
As has been said, Blood money does not work in a wand because it is no longer a swift action in a wand. Your next spell would have to be a swift action to work with Blood Money.
While I disagree that not working with healing spells is actually in the spirit of the spell and thematic... I do not think it is out of line to say that it can not function for select spells, such as resto or raise dead. If for no other reason than to protect the campaign.
Unfortunately undead really shouldn't be kept between sessions. For one, scenario developers would need to keep that in mind for each creature they put in scenarios. Two, because of tracking issue complications. I'm one of the pushers for animate dead being a viable spell in PFS, so there is some context to my words. There are other reasons, but those two are good enough.
Honestly, I think animates should take up your 'combat pet' slot and not be scenario transferable... and be free in PFS.
|
|
Blood money needs to go bye bye.
I have had some table issues where people knowing I had blood money and raise dead on my flame oracle / 1 sorcerer dip were heated beyond belief when I wouldn't free raise them.
The spell is op, everyone knows it's op. If it goes bye bye, than so be it. My Necromancer will just continue to keep on keeping on.
Things cost money for a reason. The entire economy shouldn't be messed over because of 1 first level spell.
|
Channeled Revival is free. Breath of Life is free. Ultimate Mercy is free. Twilight Transfer is free.
I'm sure there would be a heated debate when you intentionally lost someone over 5,000 gold but that is up to you and you don't have to do it.
Things are free for a reason. A spell shouldn't be banned because it can duplicate the effect with a lot of character build considerations.
|
|
Blood money needs to go bye bye.
I have had some table issues where people knowing I had blood money and raise dead on my flame oracle / 1 sorcerer dip were heated beyond belief when I wouldn't free raise them.
The spell is op, everyone knows it's op. If it goes bye bye, than so be it. My Necromancer will just continue to keep on keeping on.Things cost money for a reason. The entire economy shouldn't be messed over because of 1 first level spell.
Having a fight over that while unfortunate is a little understandable. Blood Money is not the only way to get free Raise Deads, and I can see someone thinking it a dick move to not utilize an ability for the party that you have with no cost to yourself.
But, I mean, if that is how your character is, uncharitable, then so be it. I have known druids who would never heal another member in the party.But it is a major exaggeration to say it messes over the entire economy. It saves coin on spells. But has no ability to make wealth nor make magic items.
It has been in the game for years and the economy isn't broken now. Maybe stoneskin or animate dead gets cast more often, or raise dead gets cast without coin cost in late PFS life(once again, not the only way to do this) but that is the extent of the 'damage' to the economy of the game.
|
|
Well, you do also have to have 11 strength (or a way to get 11 strength as a permanent bonus...bull's strength doesn't work for this) to be able to cast raise dead with blood money anyway. If you don't, then you can't do it anyway because you'll pass out before being able to start casting raise dead.
Even so, I do agree with the sentiment that blood money disrupts economy in the sense that people could just get raised all the time. Commoners even, and why don't NPCs just do that for PCs at the lowered cost? Of course, I also feel this way about Ultimate Mercy...
Channeled Revival is free. Breath of Life is free. Ultimate Mercy is free. Twilight Transfer is free.
I feel breath of life and abilities that behave similarly (like channeled revival and twilight transfer) are an exception in the sense that there is a very short time in which you can use these abilities and have the desired effect of revival from death.
|
|
I feel breath of life and abilities that behave similarly (like channeled revival and twilight transfer) are an exception in the sense that there is a very short time in which you can use these abilities and have the desired effect of revival from death.
There's a spell for that! (there is always a spell for that) Invigorating Repose lets you breathe of life within rounds equal to 1/2 caster level instead. Nice right?
|
|
I feel breath of life and abilities that behave similarly (like channeled revival and twilight transfer) are an exception in the sense that there is a very short time in which you can use these abilities and have the desired effect of revival from death.There's a spell for that! (there is always a spell for that) Invigorating Repose lets you breathe of life within rounds equal to 1/2 caster level instead. Nice right?
I am aware of this spell, and it is nice. But let's say that you have to abandon a comrade because a TPK is imminent and you don't want to be in the crossfire. Invigorating Repose isn't going to let them bypass anything.
Or another situation: More than one person dies and you only have one Invigorating Repose spell.
Rounds/level (or even less in this case) is very different than days/level.
|
|
Even so, I do agree with the sentiment that blood money disrupts economy in the sense that people could just get raised all the time. Commoners even, and why don't NPCs just do that for PCs at the lowered cost? Of course, I also feel this way about Ultimate Mercy...
For one, only a witch gets both raise dead and blood money naturally. And they cast raise dead as a 6th level spell, needing an 11th level witch NPC available to you at least, and would then need an 11 strength and a willingness to be weakened for a long period of time. You have to dip or have a class ability that lets you snag arcane spells otherwise. So, it is not something you'd see everywhere.
The paladin option, on the otherhand, has some interesting repercussions. It costs one negative level and 10 lay on hands, the negative level goes away automatically the next day. Now, imagine a Hospitaler Paladin with Meditation Crystals. They could conceivably raise someone, up to their level - 1 times per day, with a 10 minute wait between rezs, so long as they had enough channel energies(from worshipers of the same deity) available to them through their own ability and others.
Then! You throw a cleric/oracle with access to blood money who can cast restoration.... instantly double how many rezs that one paladin can do, for free, so long as there are enough channel energies available.(Or at the cost of 100gp per elimination of temporary negative levels)
One church on golarion with a high level cleric and paladin and a bunch of lower level clerics could rez half a small village, for free, once a day.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
|
I can't speak about Blood Money in regards to its use with Raise Dead, Limited Wish, etc. But I will humbly request the campaign leaders reconsider the ban in regards to it's interaction with Animate Dead because that is where I do have experience.
My primary character is a single class Necromancy Specialist Wizard. He is my first character for PFS and I've loved playing him so much that I've done all I can to stretch out my play time with him over the last three years (only 9th level thanks to slow advancement).
That said, Blood Money has been an incredible boon to playing my character considering how highly penalized he is as a necromancer in PFS.
To start, animations don't last between scenarios and depend upon finding an appropriate body to even cast the spell. Understandable limitations in PFS, but expensive ones considering the cost for material components. But a greater penalty to necromancer characters is the fact that none of the additional templates for animations are PFS legal, limiting the spell to vanilla zombies and skeletons. Already players enjoying a necromancer concept are triply penalized.
Then there's the OOC social limitations imposed upon the concept. I can't speak for other players but in my experience some people have an irrational problem with a player trying to use Animate Dead at their table. I enjoy making sure everyone I play with is having a good time and is comfortable but it does try my patience every time I have to table a large part of my character's concept when a vocal minority at a given table gets upset at the idea. And please, before anyone suggests I just play my character however I wish as long as its legal, I do not pretend to live in a bubble and do not go out of my way to build a reputation of being a difficult player. But that's beside the point.
Anyhow, taking the issues I presented, Blood Money helped balance them out to a small extent to allow me to play my concept. Please reconsider the ban or at least reconsider it in regards to Animate Dead.
|
|
Well, you do also have to have 11 strength (or a way to get 11 strength as a permanent bonus...bull's strength doesn't work for this)There is nothing in blood money to suggest that temporary strength bonuses don't work. All sorts of stuff lets you get round the strength requirements, polymorph, size increases, possession/magic jar.
Actually temporary bonuses/penalties are not added to your actual ability score. They modify certain things those abilities are applied to, though. Penalties do not cancel out bonuses. So, your 'actual' ability score(read:permanent score) sets how much ability damage you can take before falling unconcious/dying. Thus, a person with +4 strength bonus, 10 permanent strength and -10 strength damage would fall unconscious. But if they had a strength belt which after a time adds +2 permanent strength, they would not fall unconscious as their permanent score would be 12.
Also, spells that increase an ability but lasts less than a day are considered a temporary increase.
Interesting thing to note, the penalties/bonuses listed for strength do not mention being applied to carry capacity.
Another interesting thing, baleful polymorph bonuses would be considered permanent but not penalties, as penalties do not have the 24 hour proviso.
Ability Score Bonuses
Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses. For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.Strength: Temporary increases to your Strength score give you a bonus on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The bonus also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and to your Combat Maneuver Defense.
Dexterity: Temporary increases to your Dexterity score give you a bonus on Dexterity-based skill checks, ranged attack rolls, initiative checks, and Reflex saving throws. The bonus also applies to your Armor Class, your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Tiny or smaller), and your Combat Maneuver Defense.
Constitution: Temporary increases to your Constitution score give you a bonus on your Fortitude saving throws. In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by this bonus and add that amount to your current and total hit points. When the bonus ends, remove this total from your current and total hit points.
Intelligence: Temporary increases to your Intelligence score give you a bonus on Intelligence-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Intelligence.
Wisdom: Temporary increases to your Wisdom score give you a bonus on Wisdom-based skill checks and Will saving throws. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Wisdom.
Charisma: Temporary increases to your Charisma score give you a bonus on Charisma-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Charisma and the DC to resist your channeled energy.
Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.
Ability Score Damage, Penalty, and Drain
Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score. The only exception to this is your Constitution score. If the damage to your Constitution is equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you die. Unless otherwise noted, damage to your ability scores is healed at the rate of 1 per day to each ability score that has been damaged. Ability damage can be healed through the use of spells, such as lesser restoration.
Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die. In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1.
Strength: Damage to your Strength score causes you to take penalties on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The penalty also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and your Combat Maneuver Defense.
Dexterity: Damage to your Dexterity score causes you to take penalties on Dexterity-based skill checks, ranged attack rolls, initiative checks, and Reflex saving throws. The penalty also applies to your Armor Class, your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Tiny or smaller), and to your Combat Maneuver Defense.
Constitution: Damage to your Constitution score causes you to take penalties on your Fortitude saving throws. In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by this penalty and subtract that amount from your current and total hit points. Lost hit points are restored when the damage to your Constitution is healed.
Intelligence: Damage to your Intelligence score causes you to take penalties on Intelligence-based skill checks. This penalty also applies to any spell DCs based on Intelligence.
Wisdom: Damage to your Wisdom score causes you to take penalties on Wisdom-based skill checks and Will saving throws. This penalty also applies to any spell DCs based on Wisdom.
Charisma: Damage to your Charisma score causes you to take penalties on Charisma-based skill checks. This penalty also applies to any spell DCs based off Charisma and the DC to resist your channeled energy.
Ability Drain: Ability drain actually reduces the relevant ability score. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to lose skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. Ability drain can be healed through the use of spells such as restoration.
|
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
|
Actually temporary bonuses/penalties are not added to your actual ability score.That requires a very narrow reading of the rules.
Lets try a non blood money example.
Larry the Lucky Halfling with a base strength of 5 has bulls strength cast on him. Failing to live up to his name Larry is hit by a shadow for 6 points of strength damage. Is Larry alive or dead?
Lorewalker quoted the relevant passages, Larry is dead, and I can life with that.
This reminds me of the time, where the whole party was retreating behind my ranged hunter... all had dumped Charisma, and I was the 10 CHA tank ^^...against enemies with charisma damage/drain.
|
|
Actually temporary bonuses/penalties are not added to your actual ability score.That requires a very narrow reading of the rules.
Lets try a non blood money example.
Larry the Lucky Halfling with a base strength of 5 has bulls strength cast on him. Failing to live up to his name Larry is hit by a shadow for 6 points of strength damage. Is Larry alive or dead?
If a reading says that temporary ability score bonuses actually increased an ability score, gains to intelligence would give you new skills. They do not. Only permanent gains do that.
The difference between permanent and temporary gains are that permanent gains change your ability score and temporary ones give you specific bonuses to things that score applies to without increasing the score.
Thus the (un)lucky halfling Larry would wish he had a str belt, if he wasn't about to become a shadow himself anyway.
Unless there is a rule out there I have not read that says ability score bonuses cancel out penalties.
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well, you do also have to have 11 strength (or a way to get 11 strength as a permanent bonus...bull's strength doesn't work for this)There is nothing in blood money to suggest that temporary strength bonuses don't work. All sorts of stuff lets you get round the strength requirements, polymorph, size increases, possession/magic jar.Actually temporary bonuses/penalties are not added to your actual ability score. They modify certain things those abilities are applied to, though. Penalties do not cancel out bonuses. So, your 'actual' ability score(read:permanent score) sets how much ability damage you can take before falling unconcious/dying. Thus, a person with +4 strength bonus, 10 permanent strength and -10 strength damage would fall unconscious. But if they had a strength belt which after a time adds +2 permanent strength, they would not fall unconscious as their permanent score would be 12.
That is not actually accurate.
Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do. The section in the glossary was very tight on space and it was not possible to list every single ability score-related game effect that an ability score bones would affect.
The purpose of the temporary ability score ruling is to make it so you don't have to rebuild your character every time you get a bull's strength or similar spell; it just summarizes the most common game effects relative to that ability score.
For example, most of the time when you get bull's strength, you're using it for combat, so the glossary mentions Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, Strength-based weapon damage rolls, CMB, and CMD. It doesn't call out melee attack rolls that use Dex instead of Str (such as when using Weapon Finesse) or situations where your applied Str bonus should be halved or multiplied (such as whith off-hand or two-handed weapons). You're usually not using the spell for a 1 min./level increase in your carrying capacity, so that isn't mentioned there, but the bonus should still apply to that, as well as to Strength checks to break down doors.
Think of it in the same way that a simple template has "quick rules" and "rebuild rules;" they're supposed to create monsters which are roughly equivalent in terms of stats, but the quick rules are a short cut that misses some details compared to using the rebuild rules. Likewise, the temporary ability score rule is intended as a short cut to speed up gameplay, not as the most precise way of applying the bonus.
A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does.
And, as I said upthread: Blood reservoir (2K gold) + Bull strengh = Str + 4 for purposes of casting blood money. (as long as you use the reservoir before the bull strength runs out.)
|
|
Well, you do also have to have 11 strength (or a way to get 11 strength as a permanent bonus...bull's strength doesn't work for this)There is nothing in blood money to suggest that temporary strength bonuses don't work. All sorts of stuff lets you get round the strength requirements, polymorph, size increases, possession/magic jar.Actually temporary bonuses/penalties are not added to your actual ability score. They modify certain things those abilities are applied to, though. Penalties do not cancel out bonuses. So, your 'actual' ability score(read:permanent score) sets how much ability damage you can take before falling unconcious/dying. Thus, a person with +4 strength bonus, 10 permanent strength and -10 strength damage would fall unconscious. But if they had a strength belt which after a time adds +2 permanent strength, they would not fall unconscious as their permanent score would be 12.
That is not actually accurate.
...Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do. The section in the glossary was very tight on space and it was not possible to list every single ability score-related game effect that an ability score bones would affect.
The purpose of the temporary ability score ruling is to make it so you don't have to rebuild your character every time you get a bull's strength or similar spell; it just summarizes the most common game effects relative to that ability score.
For example, most of the time when you get bull's strength, you're using it for combat, so the glossary mentions Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, Strength-based weapon damage rolls, CMB, and CMD. It doesn't call out melee attack rolls that use Dex instead of Str (such as when using Weapon Finesse) or situations where your applied Str bonus
Iiiinteresting! That's what I love about the forums, you always find hidden gems like this one. In effect... this says you would actually gain skill points from a temporary int increase. Honestly, from this, is there an actual difference between a permanent and temporary increase?
Though, I will say, the FAQ does not mention it increases the stat like permanent increases do... only that it applies to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do .Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.
|
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
|
Well, you do also have to have 11 strength (or a way to get 11 strength as a permanent bonus...bull's strength doesn't work for this)There is nothing in blood money to suggest that temporary strength bonuses don't work. All sorts of stuff lets you get round the strength requirements, polymorph, size increases, possession/magic jar.Actually temporary bonuses/penalties are not added to your actual ability score. They modify certain things those abilities are applied to, though. Penalties do not cancel out bonuses. So, your 'actual' ability score(read:permanent score) sets how much ability damage you can take before falling unconcious/dying. Thus, a person with +4 strength bonus, 10 permanent strength and -10 strength damage would fall unconscious. But if they had a strength belt which after a time adds +2 permanent strength, they would not fall unconscious as their permanent score would be 12.
That is not actually accurate.
...Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do. The section in the glossary was very tight on space and it was not possible to list every single ability score-related game effect that an ability score bones would affect.
The purpose of the temporary ability score ruling is to make it so you don't have to rebuild your character every time you get a bull's strength or similar spell; it just summarizes the most common game effects relative to that ability score.
For example, most of the time when you get bull's strength, you're using it for combat, so the glossary mentions Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, Strength-based weapon damage rolls, CMB, and CMD. It doesn't call out melee attack rolls that use Dex instead of Str (such as when using Weapon Finesse) or situations where your applied Str bonus
This is getting confusing, especially considering the way ability damage is written (which mentions exactly the same things as temporary bonuses, as quoted by Lorewalker... )so considering the FAQ, does that mean, that ability damage does apply to way more things too?
Before reading that FAQ (thx btw I was not aware of that one) I was pretty confident that a Barbarian with 16 STR and 4 STR damage could still use power attack, since the damage gives a penalty (not unlike bull strength and other temporary bonus types).
So I guess, the question is does a temporary bonus/damage apply when the game checks if a character has a required ability score regarding feats and at which point the character becomes unconscious.
A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does.
|
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
|
iiinteresting! That's what I love about the forums, you always find hidden gems like this one. In effect... this says you would actually gain skill points from a temporary int increase. Honestly, from this, is there an actual difference between a permanent and temporary increase?
Though, I will say, the FAQ does not mention it increases the stat like permanent increases do... only that it affects all the same things.
Well, one of the things your strength score effects is how much strength damage you can take before passing out... :)
As far as I can tell, Temporary stat increase worked the way you described in D&D 3.5, and have more or less been phased out in PF. Note that the FAQ 2 above that one talks about how to treat uses per day granted by temporary effects.
That said, many of the "temporary" spells (fox cunning) do limit what they grant to act more like traditional "temporary" bonuses.
Thus an alchemist's "Cognatogen" mutagen would grant him extra skill points. But fox's cunning would not because the spell explicitly states it does not. (I would probably make the alchemist choose the skill points when he creates the mutagen, much like a headband of int does.)
I would also say that given that Fox's cunning does not grant skill points, it does not grant languages, but under the strict RAW, it technically does. Which makes it interesting...
|
|
...Well, you do also have to have 11 strength (or a way to get 11 strength as a permanent bonus...bull's strength doesn't work for this)There is nothing in blood money to suggest that temporary strength bonuses don't work. All sorts of stuff lets you get round the strength requirements, polymorph, size increases, possession/magic jar.Actually temporary bonuses/penalties are not added to your actual ability score. They modify certain things those abilities are applied to, though. Penalties do not cancel out bonuses. So, your 'actual' ability score(read:permanent score) sets how much ability damage you can take before falling unconcious/dying. Thus, a person with +4 strength bonus, 10 permanent strength and -10 strength damage would fall unconscious. But if they had a strength belt which after a time adds +2 permanent strength, they would not fall unconscious as their permanent score would be 12.
That is not actually accurate.
Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do. The section in the glossary was very tight on space and it was not possible to list every single ability score-related game effect that an ability score bones would affect.
The purpose of the temporary ability score ruling is to make it so you don't have to rebuild your character every time you get a bull's strength or similar spell; it just summarizes the most common game effects relative to that ability score.
For example, most of the time when you get bull's strength, you're using it for combat, so the glossary mentions Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, Strength-based weapon damage rolls, CMB, and CMD. It doesn't call out melee attack rolls that use Dex instead of Str (such as when using Weapon Finesse) or situations
Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.
For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score. The only exception to this is your Constitution score. If the damage to your Constitution is equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you die. Unless otherwise noted, damage to your ability scores is healed at the rate of 1 per day to each ability score that has been damaged. Ability damage can be healed through the use of spells, such as lesser restoration.
|
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
|
This is getting confusing, especially considering the way ability damage is written (which mentions exactly the same things as temporary bonuses, as quoted by Lorewalker... )so considering the FAQ, does that mean, that ability damage does apply to way more things too?
Before reading that FAQ (thx btw I was not aware of that one) I was pretty confident that a Barbarian with 16 STR and 4 STR damage could still use power attack, since the damage gives a penalty (not unlike bull strength and other temporary bonus types).
So I guess, the question is does a temporary bonus/damage apply when the game checks if a character has a required ability score regarding feats and at which point the character becomes unconscious.
I would have to double check rules forum threads to be sure, but here are the things I would consider:
Damage and bonuses are very different beasts. The FAQ just considers bonuses. People keep telling me the FAQs are meant to be very narrow. This one doesn't look narrow to me but ETV.
The temporary X rules are intended as "Quick template" rules. So if the barbarian unexpectedly took strength damage in the middle of combat, I would apply the "Quick template" rules and go on, maybe recalculate the full rules after combat ended. (Your adrenaline carried you through but...)
Damage is not Drain.
That said, my inclination would be to say that the barbarian cannot power attack, but I wouldn't rule that way against a player mid combat without confirming it in the forums.
Nevermind, Lore warden's bold convinced me that the barbarian can still power attack. I read that section three times looking for that line... Sigh.
|
|
Well, one of the things your strength score effects is how much strength damage you can take before passing out... :)
That's not actually true, it is not a separate stat thus can not be effected by something that affects things that an ability score affects. The stat that gives how much strength damage you can take until you pass out is your actual strength ability score. Anything equal to or over that and you pass out.
Now, ability damage says specifically that it does not actually decrease an ability score unless it is drain and ability score bonuses do not actually increase an ability score until they have passed 24 hours.let's add a quote to this...
If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score. The only exception to this is your Constitution score. If the damage to your Constitution is equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you die.
|
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
|
...Well, you do also have to have 11 strength (or a way to get 11 strength as a permanent bonus...bull's strength doesn't work for this)There is nothing in blood money to suggest that temporary strength bonuses don't work. All sorts of stuff lets you get round the strength requirements, polymorph, size increases, possession/magic jar.Actually temporary bonuses/penalties are not added to your actual ability score. They modify certain things those abilities are applied to, though. Penalties do not cancel out bonuses. So, your 'actual' ability score(read:permanent score) sets how much ability damage you can take before falling unconcious/dying. Thus, a person with +4 strength bonus, 10 permanent strength and -10 strength damage would fall unconscious. But if they had a strength belt which after a time adds +2 permanent strength, they would not fall unconscious as their permanent score would be 12.
That is not actually accurate.
Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do. The section in the glossary was very tight on space and it was not possible to list every single ability score-related game effect that an ability score bones would affect.
The purpose of the temporary ability score ruling is to make it so you don't have to rebuild your character every time you get a bull's strength or similar spell; it just summarizes the most common game effects relative to that ability score.
For example, most of the time when you get bull's strength, you're using it for combat, so the glossary mentions Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, Strength-based weapon damage rolls, CMB, and CMD. It doesn't call out melee attack rolls that use Dex instead of Str (such as when
Good, Barbarians everywhere are happy, but since
RD Glossary wrote:
Ability Score Bonuses
Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses. For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.
a temporary bonus will not help you with fulfilling feat prerequisites, and I am still dubious about the ability to take more ability damage.
Actually the glossary mentions " If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score. " and the shadow ability that actually kills poor halflings " Strength Damage (Su)
A shadow's touch deals 1d6 points of Strength damage to a living creature. This is a negative energy effect. A creature dies if this Strength damage equals or exceeds its actual Strength score. " I wonder if this is intentional, and what the word actual actually means in this context.
|
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
|
In this thread: An FAQ forces PFS players and GMs to debate the meaning of the term "actual".
It is quicker to assume, that is was a copy paste error from 3.5 or that at some point someone has confused how ability damage works with pathfinder. Maybe it was chosen the reiterate that the damage caused by a (single) shadow has to be as high as the score, and does not interact with other kinds of ability damage.
Words are tricky that way, especially considering outside factors like FAQs and developer commentary.
EDIT: Of course the word might just be redundant..
|
|
Good, Barbarians everywhere are happy, but since
Someone said wrote:
RD Glossary wrote:
Ability Score Bonuses
Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses. For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.
a temporary bonus will not help you with fulfilling feat prerequisites, and I am still dubious about the ability to take more ability damage.Actually the glossary mentions " If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score. " and the shadow ability that actually kills poor halflings " Strength Damage (Su)
A shadow's touch deals 1d6 points of Strength damage to a living creature. This is a negative energy effect. A creature dies if this Strength damage equals or exceeds its actual Strength score. " I wonder if this is intentional, and what the word actual actually means in this context.
That actual there is one of those extra reminders pathfinder Devs throw in to make things extra clear but usually just end up confusing people. Your 'actual ability score' is the score your character was stated with at creation plus any permanent bonuses and minus any permanent penalties. This is usually just shorted to 'ability score'.
|
Actually, this is a good point. The guide says nothing about what to do if a spell no longer becomes legal. I remember when blood transcription became illegal, the result was to trade ti out for another spell known/spell in your spellbook. I would assume that this is the same, but there's nothing in the guide for that.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Actually, this is a good point. The guide says nothing about what to do if a spell no longer becomes legal. I remember when blood transcription became illegal, the result was to trade ti out for another spell known/spell in your spellbook. I would assume that this is the same, but there's nothing in the guide for that.
I guess if a character has a trait/feat tied to a specific spell (e.g Wayang Spellhunter) then that would also be in scope of the rebuild.
I think a full PC rebuild for one removed spell is highly unlikely.
|
|
Personally I liked the spell. I felt that limiting it to standard action spells only made it much more reasonable, and it did provide a balance for aspiring necromancers due to the undead don't stick around clause. (in home games that could get a bit unbalanced, but pfs balanced better because of it)
I just never saw it as truly broken, just a boon of your class, that you sometimes had to work with to get cool things, like any other ability. People just get this weird vision of it being unbalanced because it deals with something called "expensive", when really most spells you can use it with aren't that pricey in the long run. You could really only use it on expensive things with considerable risk of unconsciousness if you run into strength damage. Removing that damage does cost money or resources as well (spells or time).
Really most of the broken things people come up with involve high level play in which you can often use other ways to achieve the same thing by that time anyway.
I'm more annoyed by the spell component tracking you have to do without it. Part of why I avoid those extra optional components and usually avoid expensive spells. I like just being self sufficient.
I too would like to see the ban reconsidered.
I don't believe that the wealth by level is affected much in the long run, that is over the course of a PFS characters playable levels.
As to the question about does Blood Money work with spells that take longer than a standard action to cast, I am going to rely on James Jacob's response. I am aware that he is not part of the design team, however he is the only Paizo employee to speak about the spell, and I believe that he was the original creator of the spell (so he would have a solid grasp of how the spell was/is supposed to work).
I may be wrong, but most of the issues being raised against blood money seem to be theory crafting and not related to actual play issues.
As to table variance, it is a subject that covers a lot of ground for all kinds of things, not just this spell. Spring-loaded wrist sheaths spring to mind and the variance on whether a dowel with a scroll wrapped around it would work or not. Table variance should not be a reason to ban an item or spell.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In a scenario late last year, my character willingly failed his save on a siphon might spell to provide a spellcaster the strength to cast a free raise dead using blood money. I saw it as both characters giving part of their lifeforce to the recently-deceased character to bring him back to life, and thought it was a cool trick to have.
