Fromper |
This is for Pathfinder Society, so raw Paizo only sources, PFS legal, etc.
I'm making an inquisitor who will be mostly focused on skills. But even skill monkeys need to contribute in combat, so I'm planning to toss some points into dexterity, give him a crossbow, and pick up some of the archery feats.
I know composite longbows are best for a dedicated archer, but this isn't a dedicated archer. He needs to be able to contribute in battle, but he will never be the heavy hitter. I won't have any strength bonus, maybe even settling for 8 str as a halfling, which would hurt bow or sling damage, which is why I'm thinking crossbow.
But what type of crossbow? Repeating crossbow looks good for lower levels, when 5 shots before reloading means 5 rounds, which is plenty for any normal combat. But it seems like it would be worth trading out for a light crossbow and Rapid Reload for full attacks later.
What feats will I need? Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot are obviously mandatory. Again, Rapid Reload will be necessary if I'm doing a crossbow and want to full attack. And then there's other obvious archery feats like Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim, and Clustered Shot.
What else should I consider?
Wonderstell |
Okay, I believe you would be better of with a longbow instead of a light crossbow.
You'll deal 1 damage less per arrow due to the str penalty, but you don't need to worry about Rapid Reload, and you'll be able to take Manyshot.
Deadly Aim only becomes relevant at mid-levels, so I discourage you to choose it early on, especially since you won't have a great dex bonus.
*****
What level is this character? If you're about mid levels, then focus on getting as many attacks as possible.
If you're starting out as a level 1, then you could use Focused Shot to add INT to damage, then retrain that feat into one viable as the campaign progresses. (Since you won't get any bonus combat feats, you'll get this feat rather late, but still before your second BAB attack.)
Depending on your INT bonus, a Focused Shot standard attack could deal more dmg than two attacks with Rapid Shot.
*****
And with Solo Tactics, you should use some teamwork archer feats, such as Target of Opportunity (if there is another archer in your group).
You might also want Friendly Fire Maneuvers to negate the cover which often is applied when melee allies unwittingly aids the enemy.
(FFM would also be of use when casting target spells on enemies, not just for ranged.)
Secret Wizard |
You NEED to be a Human to be a ranged inquisitor. The feats are just too important.
Here's a possible build:
1. PBS, Rapid Reload
3. Precise Shot
5. Deadly Aim
7. Rapid Shot
9. Crossbow Mastery
11. Improved Critical
Your main source of damage will be Bane (2+2d6 extra damage!) and Judgement, plus Divine Favor or whatever you choose to add through spells.
You'll deal 1 damage less per arrow due to the str penalty, but you don't need to worry about Rapid Reload, and you'll be able to take Manyshot.
Manyshot isn't great for Inquisitors. Bane doesn't apply twice if I'm not mistaken.
Wonderstell |
Manyshot isn't great for Inquisitors. Bane doesn't apply twice if I'm not mistaken.
I believe that weapon enhancements aren't precision-based damage, so bane should apply twice, since you are firing two arrows which both have the bane effect on them.
And even if it didn't, Rapid Reload/Crossbow Mastery is such a waste of feats. I would gladly choose an additional arrow per round instead of a +1 (Rapid Reload) or +2 (Crossbow Mastery) to Damage. Because that is the difference between bows and crossbows. The latter needs feats to be viable, whereas the higher damage die just isn't good enough for the feats used.
*****
@Fromper
I think I'll do as Secret Wizard and also give you an example of a build (without the bonus feat from being human, as you mentioned being a halfling.).
1. PBS
3. Precise Shot
3. Teamwork Feat: Friendly Fire Maneuvers
5. Rapid Shot
7. Weapon Focus, if you need that extra bonus to hit.
9. Manyshot
9. Teamwork Feat: Target of Opportunity.
As Secret Wizard said, your main source of damage will come from your Bane ability, so focus on getting as many arrows in the air as possible.
At level 9, with these feats and a Haste effect, you'll be firing up to 6 arrows per round. The Bane effect will then let you deal 3d6 + 1 damage per arrow with a mundane longbow (since you're small sized).
Fromper |
Thanks for the suggestions.
As I said, this is for Pathfinder Society, so starting at level 1 and working up from there. Society play pretty much ends with level 11, and I have a lot of PCs, so this isn't likely to be among the one or two I take past that.
And as I also said, this guy isn't an archer inquisitor: he'll be a skill monkey inquisitor, who just helps out some in combat with archery. But it's not his primary role, and I won't be too upset if he's never that great at it. But I've seen PCs that use a crossbow when they have nothing better to do who don't have any archery feats, so they rarely hit, and only do the typical 1d8 damage when they do. That might be fine at levels 1-3, but I've seen it at level 8 or 9. Even a non-optimized inquisitor should be doing better than that.
Thinking about the one thing you both agreed on: The inquisitor's biggest damage comes from the Bane feature. But that's only one round per level, so I'll only have 5 rounds per day when I first get it at level 5. Heck, even at level 10, it might not be enough to use every round of combat for the day. So I'm thinking instead of trying for extra shots per round, which won't happen until level 5 or 7 anyhow, I may as well go for Extended Bane at level 5 to get 4 more rounds per day.
As for the longbow vs crossbow controversy, I figure the heavy repeating crossbow is my best bet at low levels when I'm only firing one shot per round, anyway. As a repeater, it takes cartridges of 5 bolts, so I only have to reload after 5 rounds of combat, and I'll always switch to a fresh cartridge between battles. Once I can start getting more shots, I'll worry about either taking Rapid Reload and switching to a light crossbow, or else switching to a longbow.
So here's what I'm thinking if I go halfling:
str: 8 (-2 racial)
dex: 16 (5) (+2 racial)
con: 10
int: 14 (5)
wis: 16 (10)
cha: 12 (+2 racial)
Feats:
1: Point Blank Shot
3: Precise Shot
3: Friendly Fire Maneuvers (teamwork bonus feat)
5: Extended Bane
6: Enfilading Fire (teamwork bonus feat)
7: ?
9: ?
9: Target of Opportunity (teamwork bonus feat)
11: ?
The question marks at 7, 9, and 11 could go down 3 paths:
1. Longbow: Rapid Shot, Many Shot, Deadly Aim (not necessarily in that order)
2. Light Crossbow: Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot, Crossbow Mastery
3. Or I can just stick to the heavy repeating crossbow for only one shot per round, and try to make each attack hit for a lot of damage with Deadly Aim, Focused Shot, Vital Strike, and/or Improved Critical, not necessarily in that order.
Of course, I could still go human, which bumps Precise Shot to level 1, and makes a lot of other stuff happen sooner. But I'm really leaning towards halfling for the skill monkey stuff. The stats work out a little better, due to boosting two of them instead of just one like a human, and I can get racial bonuses like +4 stealth, +2 perception, and +2 bluff right from level 1.
Cavall |
Inquisitors get it because of Van Helsing.
You don't need all that deadly aim crap if you really want to just occasionally shoot. Precise shot and rapid reload are pretty much your only requirements.
If I had to suggest something there's 2 teamwork feats, one that allows you a ranged shot when others make one and another that allows you to retreat through allied spaces with no AoO. Stick close to a friend and retreat through him to make quick escapes.
That's all you really need, you can focus on your skills from there.
Wonderstell |
The question marks at 7, 9, and 11 could go down 3 paths:1. Longbow: Rapid Shot, Many Shot, Deadly Aim (not necessarily in that order)
2. Light Crossbow: Rapid Reload, Rapid Shot, Crossbow Mastery
3. Or I can just stick to the heavy repeating crossbow for only one shot per round, and try to make each attack hit for a lot of damage with Deadly Aim, Focused Shot, Vital Strike, and/or Improved Critical, not necessarily in that order.
1. Longbow: Since you are a 3/4 BAB class, you might not even want Deadly Aim at all, since you will be struggling with your Attack bonus.
2. Light Crossbow: You won't need Crossbow Mastery since Rapid Reload will let you reload a Light Crossbow as a free action anyway.
3. Focused Shot and Vital Strike are both standard actions, so you won't be able to use both at the same time. And since your INT isn't that great, I don't recommend Focused Shot at all. And improved critical won't be useful with Focused Shot/Vital Strike/Bane. I strongly discourage you to go with option 3.
*****
Comparison between option 1 and 2:
You'll need Rapid Reload to fire more than once per round with a Light Crossbow, and the only thing you'll gain from using a Light Crossbow instead of a Longbow is being able to ignore your STR penalty. You already don't have any bonus combat feats, so wasting feats on the crossbow path is just crippling your potential.
Furthermore, you are losing out on the reason bows are superior to crossbows; Manyshot.
*****
And taking Extended Bane at level 5 isn't something I recommend. You might get 3-4 more rounds of your Bane ability, but you'll still only fire once per round. If the choice is between Rapid Shot and Extend Bane, then they should be about equal in power at that level since you'll probably hit with the same amount of Bane arrows per day.
Then as you gain more attacks per round and more uses of your Bane ability from level progression, the Extend Bane feat loses even more of its worth. You'll be better off with a Bane Baldric instead.
*****
You should be fine with a Repeating Crossbow before level 5, but when you can gain more attacks per round, switch to the longbow.
The Heavy Repeating Crossbow will have a d8 damage die since you're small, while a small Longbow will deal d6-1 damage. At level 5, with Bane, the original damage of the weapon doesn't really matter that much.
Heavy Repeating Crossbow with Bane: (d8+2d6+2)= ca 13.5 damage per round.
Longbow with Bane: (3d6+1)x2*= ca 23 damage per round**.
*Rapid Shot
**Even with the Attack penalty of -2, you'll deal much more damage with the Longbow.
Fromper |
He'll be doing more than firing occasionally. He'll probably toss out a spell in the first round of combat, then fire arrows/bolts the rest of the time.
When I said he won't be a dedicated archer, I meant that he's built for non-combat more than combat. But in combat, archery will be his main activity. Which is why I'm not worried about totally optimizing the archery stuff, but I want to be good enough to at least be helpful to the group.
I may still tweak the stats I gave above. With the halfling size bonus to hit on attack rolls, I can lower my dex to 14 and still have the same hit chance as a human with 16 dex. So I'm thinking of doing that to get higher mental stats for skills, or boost my con to 12.
Wonderstell |
He'll be doing more than firing occasionally. He'll probably toss out a spell in the first round of combat, then fire arrows/bolts the rest of the time.
When I said he won't be a dedicated archer, I meant that he's built for non-combat more than combat. But in combat, archery will be his main activity. Which is why I'm not worried about totally optimizing the archery stuff, but I want to be good enough to at least be helpful to the group.
I may still tweak the stats I gave above. With the halfling size bonus to hit on attack rolls, I can lower my dex to 14 and still have the same hit chance as a human with 16 dex. So I'm thinking of doing that to get higher mental stats for skills, or boost my con to 12.
Well, as for the optimizing archery stuff.
If you focus on crossbows, then you'll need atleast one extra feat just to be equal to bows in firing potential. It's not even about optimizing. If you take up the Crossbow path, then you will waste feats and deal less damage. Crossbows are only good for the levels before your second attack.And your Strength isn't that important either, so feel free to lower that one for more points.
Mysterious Stranger |
First of all having any character that is going to be using armor and carrying a weapon should not have that low of strength. Even if you are focusing on skill you need enough STR to carry your gear. With an 8 STR you will be at medium load once you go over 19.5 lbs., and at heavy once you go over 39.75 lbs.. I would suggest at least a 10 STR after racial adjustment, or better yet 12. Taking a -3 or even worse -6 on climb, ride, stealth and swim is going to really hurt.
Second bane is an enchantment on the weapon not precision damage so it applies to all attacks in the round including AoO. Combine this with judgements and a few buff spells and this is the source of an inquisitors damage.
Another option to go for a DEX based inquisitor is weapon finesse and fencing/slashing grace to get DEX to damage. If your deity has an appropriate melee favored weapon this could work out quite well. This would also allow you to use a ranged weapon when needed.
Wonderstell |
First of all having any character that is going to be using armor and carrying a weapon should not have that low of strength. Even if you are focusing on skill you need enough STR to carry your gear. With an 8 STR you will be at medium load once you go over 19.5 lbs., and at heavy once you go over 39.75 lbs.. I would suggest at least a 10 STR after racial adjustment, or better yet 12. Taking a -3 or even worse -6 on climb, ride, stealth and swim is going to really hurt.
Second bane is an enchantment on the weapon not precision damage so it applies to all attacks in the round including AoO. Combine this with judgements and a few buff spells and this is the source of an inquisitors damage.
Another option to go for a DEX based inquisitor is weapon finesse and fencing/slashing grace to get DEX to damage. If your deity has an appropriate melee favored weapon this could work out quite well. This would also allow you to use a ranged weapon when needed.
Very true.
The weight will add up, so strength will be an important aspect.
Even so, 19.5 lb might be enough.
Small special material armor will only have a fourth of its original weight, while Pathfinder Pouches/Efficient Quiver will help overcoming the carried weight.
The question is if the carried weight from the item slots will exceed the limit or not.
I don't know how Pathfinder Society treats fractions of pounds, so this could easily be bypassed or a great hurdle. A slotted wondrous item would weigh about 0.5 lb for a small creature. So for a fully slotted player that's about 6 lb.
1.5 from the bow, 6 from slotted items, and 5-10 (10-20 at lower levels) from a medium armor. Seems like it would work.
If you buy a MWK Backpack then you can drop your strength with one point and still have the effective light load of 19.5 lb.
Edit: Right, almost forgot about the weight from Efficient Quiver/Pathfinder Pouch. Add 1.5 lb to the carried weight.
Mysterious Stranger |
19.5 was based on an 8 STR. Chances are you are going to be in medium encumbrance with just basic gear at 1st level. If you upgrade your armor to a medium armor without special materials you will be at medium encumbrance from just weapons and armor. This does not include any other gear which and inquisitor should have. The masterwork backpack and latter handy haversack does not take care of weapons and armor. Spending 2 points to get a 10 STR bumps that up to 24.75 lbs..
Small characters do have an advantage that they can actually carry more size appropriate gear, but not all gear is size appropriate. A 50’ rope is a 50’ rope no matter who carries it. Also treasure is a fixed weight so being small does not help with this. Having to leave behind loot because the party cannot carry it is going to upset people. You should be able to carry at least your own share of the loot.
Also keep in mind that encumbrance also limits your maximum DEX bonus to AC. If you are relying on DEX for your AC being encumbered is going to kill that, especially heavy encumbrance.
Fromper |
I hadn't decided for sure what armor I was doing, but I might go medium armor, in which case medium encumbrance doesn't add any additional penalties.
As for things like rope and grappling hook being heavy, that's what mules are for. I believe they're 5gp in the Core Rulebook. Or hand that stuff to the big strong fighter in the group. Or ask if anyone else has that stuff, and leave yours at home. I never carry misc gear that I don't need in combat with low str characters. I have it, but I'm not carrying it in battle.
I haven't done the full math, but I'm pretty sure I can get away with 8 str on this guy. It would be tough, especially at low levels before I can afford mithral chain shirt, if I were trying to do light encumbrance. But if I go medium armor and medium encumbrance, then it's easy.