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So I am looking into Dark Sun as a potential successor setting for my current weekly Pathfinder game, and although there are numerous threads here and on the other RPG boards about converting Dark Sun to Pathfinder, I have yet to find something about incorporating the setting's extreme temperatures into the rules. Even the DS3_r7 document from athas.org doesn't seem to have anything about that (or I missed it).
The problem, for those who are unfamiliar with Dark Sun, is that in this burned desert world temperatures rise up tp 150° F (65° C) in the afternoon. This makes the core environment rules in the PRD all but useless since every single PC would die within an hour or so. Also, using the standard rules for heat and starvation never made a lot of sense to begin with since they involve an unreasonable amount of Fortitude saves and nothing else (e.g., every 10 minutes... really!?), so just using the standard rules as if Dark Sun's temperatures weren't that high doesn't solve my problem.
Does anyone have a good idea how to proceed here? Or a link to someplace where people already tackled this problem?
If I remember right this was one of the primary reasons that you were significantly more powerful in Darksun. 4d6 rolled for stats and starting at level 3 I think... As a simple solution don't make the rolls every 10 minutes but do them in the AM before the PCs start their day and then have the results affect the PCs through out the day time specifically in times of stress or activity.
If I remember in the books, they went out of their way to avoid being in the sun from midday to early evening. Not that that is extremely helpful to your cause.
But this is!
Dragon #315
Dragon #319
Dungeon #110
Dungeon #111
Paizo PDF's to the rescue!! Paizo did a "How to run Dark Sun for 3.5" awhile ago. I liked them, they were very useful.
I love me some dark sun Try this guy, he ran a great game
Thanks, will check it out!
If possible, try to find a copy of the 3.5 supplement Sandstorm. It had a lot of great stuff for this sort of thing.
I actually have Sandstorm, but to be honest it doesn't really help. The rules for extreme heat are basically the same as the ones found in the PRD and not designed to be used as standard weather. There is some neat stuff about quicksand and sunglare and so on, but regarding heatstrokes and thirst I've found Sandstorm to be remarkably unhelpful in this endeavor.
If I remember right this was one of the primary reasons that you were significantly more powerful in Darksun. 4d6 rolled for stats and starting at level 3 I think... As a simple solution don't make the rolls every 10 minutes but do them in the AM before the PCs start their day and then have the results affect the PCs through out the day time specifically in times of stress or activity.
I though about something along those lines, but neither do I want to generate tons of rolls (and take away the opportunity for my players to roll themselves), nor do I think the current rules are really compatible with adventuring. It's very binary, like so many things in the d20 ruleset, and I suspect using the rules as-is would be the main reason for a 15-minutes adventuring day in Dark Sun.
So if I understand your problem, you don't want the dessert to be so deadly. In that case, the solution seems to be to not make it so deadly.
Either handwave /ignore the heat rules, or assume dessert adaptation for everyone and drop everything down by a level or two, there are plenty of ways to nudge the mechanics of heat exposure to less lethal if that is what you want.
It has been a while since I read the setting, but I assume that just as in our real world desserts, during the hottest parts of the day people take cover from the heat.
I will note though that 'being doused in water' causes you to cool off according the environment rules, which presumably resets the clock on whatever periodic save you have to make (i.e. gives you another 10 minutes until you have to save) so any party with a character with the create water cantrip can pretty much survive even extreme heat. I personally would make sure that we had at least one water creator in any party I was in that was going to be in a dessert setting.
If I remember in the books, they went out of their way to avoid being in the sun from midday to early evening. Not that that is extremely helpful to your cause.
But this is!
Dragon #315
Dragon #319
Dungeon #110
Dungeon #111Paizo PDF's to the rescue!! Paizo did a "How to run Dark Sun for 3.5" awhile ago. I liked them, they were very useful.
I have Dragon #319 and Dungeon #110. I know that Dungeon #111 contains the rest of the 3.5 monster conversion, what's the deal with Dragon #315? Also, there is nothing about heat and dealing with desert environments, unless I missed it (but I am pretty sure, I've read my copies several times by now).
So if I understand your problem, you don't want the dessert to be so deadly. In that case, the solution seems to be to not make it so deadly.
Either handwave /ignore the heat rules, or assume dessert adaptation for everyone and drop everything down by a level or two, there are plenty of ways to nudge the mechanics of heat exposure to less lethal if that is what you want.
It has been a while since I read the setting, but I assume that just as in our real world desserts, during the hottest parts of the day people take cover from the heat.
What I am looking for are rules that consist of more than "make a DC 15 Fortitude check every 10 minutes, +1 per check", because that's seriously all there is in the PRD. I understand the reasoning, and they work fine in your average adventure, but in a desert world that is as harsh as Dark Sun you run into a problem because you either roll so many Fortitude checks that players will go mad or you handwave it away, which also is unsatisfactory.
I will note though that 'being doused in water' causes you to cool off according the environment rules, which presumably resets the clock on whatever periodic save you have to make (i.e. gives you another 10 minutes until you have to save) so any party with a character with the create water cantrip can pretty much survive even extreme heat. I personally would make sure that we had at least one water creator in any party I was in that was going to be in a dessert setting.
Well, harsh survival is one of the cornerstones of Dark Sun, so create water is obviously not a cantrip in this setting. A water-cleric is still a very useful asset to have (there are no regular dieties in Dark Sun), but PCs shouldn't circumvent that survival aspect so easily. At leeast that's how I feel about it.
So if I understand your problem, you don't want the dessert to be so deadly. In that case, the solution seems to be to not make it so deadly.
delicious but deadly :p
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Oh my god, she did!
I love me some dark sun Try this guy, he ran a great game
Yes, the game was an absolute blast!
Create Water as a cantrip works all right with a modification- the water disappears after 24 hours even if drunk. Have it delay the need for water by a day, but when it wears off, you suffer the effects of not having water unless you've gotten enough real water for the entire period. So it'll buy you an extra day, but that's it. (Just don't allow chaining, or add unavoidable ability damage or drain as parts of your body are broken down.)
The way our DM handled create water is like this:
Create water is a 1st level spell
It multiplies water already present at 1 gallon/caster level (no limit)
It worked well for us. However I fully admit that I took full advantage of the rare Breeze cantrip. A free +2 to your check against the heat is nothing to sneeze at.
I have Dragon #319 and Dungeon #110. I know that Dungeon #111 contains the rest of the 3.5 monster conversion, what's the deal with Dragon #315? Also, there is nothing about heat and dealing with desert environments, unless I missed it (but I am pretty sure, I've read my copies several times by now).If I remember in the books, they went out of their way to avoid being in the sun from midday to early evening. Not that that is extremely helpful to your cause.
But this is!
Dragon #315
Dragon #319
Dungeon #110
Dungeon #111Paizo PDF's to the rescue!! Paizo did a "How to run Dark Sun for 3.5" awhile ago. I liked them, they were very useful.
315 has Defiler Magic
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@Däina: reading through that campaign right now, that really seem to have been an awesome game. And cantrips helping against heat... well, that's probably really ok I guess? Its a game after all :)
315 has Defiler Magic
Ah, thanks. Seems I missed that one.
Cantrips helping against heat is absolutely fine. Breeze is nice, but not overpowered in any way for the setting.
I would definitely suggest nerfing create water though, otherwise a single divine caster gets rid of any need for water.
(this is Daina, posting with my default alias)
Reduce it to a single roll.
Each character makes a fort save at the beginning of the day (or make it for them), for every 1-2 points they beat the base DC (10 for a hot day, 15 for a very hot day?) they can survive one time period, once they run out of time periods they start taking the relevant negative effects.
The players don't need to know when they will fail until the first of them takes a penalty/damage and then they have to decide whether to carry on or seek shelter.
(I haven't looked at the maths of this, just a random thought as I wander past!)
Al-Qadim was an Arabian Adventures setting, placed in the far south of the Forgotten Realms. The guides for that setting presumed that if you needed water, you carried it, yourself or with a pack animal. For activity in temperatures over 100 degrees, the rules worked similarly to the Pathfinder rules. The common sense approach is -- don't do stupid things -- like run around in the heat. Travel at night or ride something. There were a lot of cool travel-relateds spells also.
I remember Dark Sun using a lot of vessels and beasties: giant turtles, giant beetles, undead giant beetles, sand skimmers, crodlu, and other things. The Dark Sun elves were the ones who ran around in the desert -- adapted no doubt -- that was their advantage.
Well I have some experience with heat and the impact on the body under stress, so I'll try to make some stuff up for you to match up with some reality and remain playable.
Lets start with the existing rules. The Fortitude Save every 10 minutes actually falls in line rather well real world heat safety guidelines when putting forth serious physical effort. If combat comes up, if you're doing a forced march, or heavy labor use that 10 minute Fortitude Save rule. If your combat only lasts a few rounds still make the roll because combat can take a lot out of you. This is not only realistic, but help to establish something of an economy of effort. The players will have to stop and seriously consider if it is worth doing something physically taxing.
Now for regular play and regular activity you don't need anything near as intensive. The Human body is actually remarkably well adapted to survive in the heat, the peoples of Athas significantly more so. So long as the players have sufficient supplies of water, take regular breaks, and other precautions against the heat, rolling a Fortitude Save once day is perfectly acceptable. I'd recommend the consequences be the fatigued condition, and further failed saves escalate to Exhausted. Recovery would require downtime to rest in a cool environment with water.
I'm not familiar with the PF rules for dehydration off hand, but if the players run out of water, or start having to ration water enforce those rules harshly, or make them stronger. The ability of a person to survive the heat is based largely the continuous intake of water and sweating it out. Death can follow dehydration very quickly in a hot environment. Similarly, rules for not eating should be strictly enforced or even tightened as well, with out food the body stops functioning properly. Under normal conditions you can go a long time without food, in a hot environment you need to maintain a Water/Electrolyte balance or your body will start shutting down as system stop working.
If you want heat stroke rules, I would say each failed Fortitude Save due to heat adds raises through Fatigue and then Exhaustion. After failing while Exhausted, the character enters into Heat Stroke. Each failed Heat Fortitude Save while in Heat Stroke inflicts Intelligence Drain. If Intelligence reaches zero the character dies.
So there you have it. You'll need to fill in the numbers and balance to taste, but that should give you a harsh and even deadly hot weather environment without overloading your game with unnecessary saves.
Does anybody else think the Hells Rebels path would make an excellent Dark Sun conversion?
Also check out the sandstorm 3.0 supplement it has ruled for levels of heat and how to protect against it. Not to complicated but a bit more ite resting than just the saves
Reduce it to a single roll.
TPK mentioned something like that further above, and I think it's not a bad hot-fix since I could just leave the rules intact, pretend that Athas is not really as hot as it is and just let people roll 1-2 Fortitude saves in the morning or something like that. That'll probably work but is still pretty dull. Ah well.
Al-Quadim [...] There were a lot of cool travel-relateds spells also.
That sounds interesting! Could you name the supplements where one finds these spells? I'm not really familiar with the AD&D settings, especially Al-Quadim.
Also check out the sandstorm 3.0 supplement it has ruled for levels of heat and how to protect against it. Not to complicated but a bit more ite resting than just the saves
Like I said above, I own Sandstorm but it really doesn't help because there aren't any sophisticated rules for heat. There is additional equipment and a few new desert hazards, yes, but they all work off the known regular intervals of Fortitude checks.
Well It does include dehydration, heat stroke and sunstroke. Plus methods of reducing and mitigating heat. At the end of the day you don't want a whole campaign where the PCs can't step outside.
Any creature in a dark suns environment is going to adapt to the extreme weather. Consider giving all creatures the equivalent to Desert Child trait. Then simply adjust the frequency of the checks to the next time frame. So what was a check per 10 minutes becomes a check per hour. Between the +4 save and the adjusted time you should be fine. This is simply a matter of evolution.
This is really hard... I'm trying to come up with something a bit more stylish than a Fortitude save, but nothing seems to have a real advantage both in terms of rules and in terms of fun and smooth gameplay.
The only thing I haven't dismissed so far is to introduce a new condition that kicks in before fatigue and doesn't inflict the whole range of penalties, just a minor penalty to warn the PCs (yet enough to matter). Worn? Labored? Something like that.
You could also throw in will saves against the delusions that come with extreme dehydration.
The job of any mechanic to that doesn't use a Fortitude Save is to provide a way to mitigate the heat. Your go to for this would be Survival skill giving this with a higher Wisdom the opportunity to shine some in the face of a largely Fortitude Save based obstacle. Beyond that clever characters might bring along heat mitigating gear or come up with clever tricks to beat the heat. Caster type characters obviously have an array of tricks to help with the issue.
The reality of Athas is that the population is largely contained in City-States because the heat is to much for most people to handle and the city is where they can go to survive it. Some characters are just not tough enough to survive the heat. In Athas you're either tough or you die.
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I'm running Mummys Mask 'Dark sun themed' and use a system of Heat levels.
Temperatures are assigned bands much as in sandstorm book to give initial level 0-5, then add levels for armour type/encumbrance or reduce for desert native trait/cool outfit without armour/endure elements spell etc. The resulting heat level for each character indicates the frequency of thier Fort saves.
They prepare by removing heavy armour, applying endure elements as required and stopping in shelter at mid day when the heal level bumps up one or two. If saves are required the Take10 rule for skills is applied for the Fort saves until extended travel indicates a fail. I can then easily see how long/far they get before one is fatigued and they then choose to stop/rest/adjust.
Players know its dangerous not just hand waived away so adds good setting feel while letting them plan to avoid.
Houseruled that Create water draws water from around the caster, rather like defiling. So out in harsh desert the spell will fail. Again keeps the desert dangerous.
I really like the create water variant!. Favourited!
I'm running Mummys Mask 'Dark sun themed' and use a system of Heat levels.
Temperatures are assigned bands much as in sandstorm book to give initial level 0-5, then add levels for armour type/encumbrance or reduce for desert native trait/cool outfit without armour/endure elements spell etc. The resulting heat level for each character indicates the frequency of thier Fort saves.
Nicely done, I really like that. What frequency are we talking about here?
Houseruled that Create water draws water from around the caster, rather like defiling. So out in harsh desert the spell will fail. Again keeps the desert dangerous.
Oh my, that's an interesting idea. But in that case I'd also change the spell's name because the standard title would be a bit misleading and probably also the school (necromancy seems a nice fit).
I don’t consider it fun to be rolling endless fort saves, but like it as the base mechanic, so as I mentioned I assume the take10 on fort saves for the travel ones, then have a rolled save after combat exertion in heat.
Heat level 0 = no effects
Level 1 = 1/hour DC15 +1per previous check, Fail 1d4nonL
Level 2 = 1/10mins DC15+1per prev, Fail 1d4nonL
Level 3 = 1/10min No save 1d6nonL
Level 4 = 1/min No save 1d6Lethal
Level 5 = 1/rnd No save 1d6Lethal
A further pc rolled save is called for after combat or other exerting encounter.
For Osirion I use base levels of 0, 1 and2 for warm60-85, hot85-110 and heat wave 95-120 respectively.
Then +1 for noon hour, +1 if hot winds, +1 below sea level, -1 at altitude, -1 at night. Then -1 if Native, -1 partial shade(eg covered wagon), -3 full shade(tent camp/cave), -1 Desert outfit without armour, -3 Endure elements, +1+2+3 for light/med/hvy armour.
For Fort saves you have the DC15survival check for bonuses (per CRB) and +4 with Endurance feat.
Any heat damage gives Fatigue. Any Lethal heat damage gives Exhaustion.
Reducing to level0 allows heat damage to cure and conditions to wear off. Also healing all heat damage will remove a condition.
Like any rules I found the players very quickly pre-calculate what armour to wear, who needs endure elements, how long the weakest can travel for and if they can stand the noon hour.
We also use lots of other Dark sun flavour items such as desert skiffs, giant beasts with howdahs etc