Again, you are mistaken in how you are approaching it, Cablop.
The ability to gain more hp from healing magic has its greatest effect on healing wands and potions. Specifically, doubling healing makes potions cost the same as wand charges per point of healing. A martial per-level bonus makes caster level 1 potions and wands far more powerful in the hands of martials, which REDUCES the need for casters, it doesn't enhance them, since the per-level bonus works on them, not on casters. (Incidentally, I would move this to instead giving martials with caster levels the effect at their effective caster level or BAB (whichever is worse), not their class level, allowing them to supersede the limits on spells, but leaving non-magical martials the biggest benefit).
And the same trope where all characters have levels of casting also REMOVES the choice of being a non-caster, and gaining other benefits...which is also a trope (heck, they built the darksword trilogy around it, and at least one anime mecha series). The guy without magic in a magical world should have alternatives, and being easier/faster to heal with 'items' as well as cast spells is how the direction usually goes (i.e. non-casters can just use 'gear' of various sorts better then casters because of who/what they are is the trope, esp. anti-magic stuff).
==Aelryinth
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So pure martials Fighter, Rogue and Caviler get their PURE MARTIAL LEVEL ONLY to all healing effects.
Seems resonable i guess, what if a Archetype gives them a Supernatural ability?
Anything according to how I am understanding your though process that has supernatural abilities or greater doesn't gain the bonus?
I think making healing just a flat amount is probably the best.
Most people say they don't heal in combat until the "Heal Spell" comes on line and that is because it is a flat amount and there is no chance of rolling poor.
Seems to be the easiest way of fixing healing right there. Then if you heal the Lvl 5 wizard with 5/40HP for 60 points your over healing by a lot and it seems less worth it because your wasting the healing potential of the spell.
Again, you are mistaken in how you are approaching it, Cablop.
The ability to gain more hp from healing magic has its greatest effect on healing wands and potions. Specifically, doubling healing makes potions cost the same as wand charges per point of healing. A martial per-level bonus makes caster level 1 potions and wands far more powerful in the hands of martials, which REDUCES the need for casters, it doesn't enhance them, since the per-level bonus works on them, not on casters. (Incidentally, I would move this to instead giving martials with caster levels the effect at their effective caster level or BAB (whichever is worse), not their class level, allowing them to supersede the limits on spells, but leaving non-magical martials the biggest benefit).
And the same trope where all characters have levels of casting also REMOVES the choice of being a non-caster, and gaining other benefits...which is also a trope (heck, they built the darksword trilogy around it, and at least one anime mecha series). The guy without magic in a magical world should have alternatives, and being easier/faster to heal with 'items' as well as cast spells is how the direction usually goes (i.e. non-casters can just use 'gear' of various sorts better then casters because of who/what they are is the trope, esp. anti-magic stuff).
==Aelryinth
Aelryinth, i'm realizing we are seeing the proposed rule (at least in concept) from opposite sides... and for solving different issues:
- You are (please correct me if i'm wrong) willing to give something extra to a character that cast no spells at all; this is her compensation for not using magic in a world with magic. You are removing that benefit if characters cast a single spell. Sounds drastic. But you are proposing rules to compensate that too.
- I'm willing to balance the cost of having HPs. Too many HPs should mean how hard is to kill a thing, not a currency, some sort of esoteric credits a character can spend in battle but have to work hard to get them back. Characters with too much and too few HPs spent the same amount of healing, just the frequency of healing varies. This is not directly related to combat/caster classes, just correlated.
Our interests are different, not opposite, but different. Some other people in the thread manifested one or the other position... well, except trolls, but cause they regenerate, i understand why they don't care to worry about HPs.
I can make a simple rule that solves my issue by making a rule that gives more points per healing thing (spell, potion, skill, etc) to people with a higher HP ratio. The stat for it would be the BAB, cause it is directly related to how many HPs you are expected to have; the % formulas are interesting too, cause they can include Con bonuses in the equation. That solves the HP as a currency rather than a measure in how hard is to take you down... or if you still want to see it as a currency; the more you have, the more you earn.
If i'm right about your intentions, i think it is an interesting thing to have some extra thing for a character who does not use magic at all. I like that idea.
The problem i see with your approach is it hurts characters like rogues and monks. Ok, monks have spell-like things, but they also deserve to not to depend on casters to survive. It penalizes too much the multiclasing[1]; some dislike it, but some others like it. I don't exactly understand how to balance classes like rangers and paladins that get casting at later levels, with magi[2], bards and alchemists who have caped spellcasting with full powerful casters able to cast the most powerful spells. Magi can't compare with druids and bards are in disadvantage with sorcerers.
Anyway, we can still workaround your approach, via creating drow fighters or gnome/svirfneblin barbarians.
The other bad thing of that approach is that it makes rogues even worse than they are now. How many play rogues in PF?
Back to my idea, i have to admit the BAB as a healing bonus/factor don't help to directly counter the casting ability; but as i said this was not my main intention from the beginning.
I'm not reaching conclusions in this point. I'm just trying to make things clear to help people understand the why of what we propose.
[1] I have to admit i like the multiclassing thing, it allows me to create interesting, challenging PCs and allowed me to create intriguing, really nice flavored NPCs. PF penalizes it too much, but it is doable enough. At least it is not, we are not back in AD&D painfully format.
[2] Is it the right plural form?
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Most people say they don't heal in combat until the "Heal Spell" comes on line and that is because it is a flat amount and there is no chance of rolling poor....
Actually, people don't heal in combat until Heal comes online because Cure spells heal a pitiful amount of HP for their action economy cost. Having to roll isn't really an issue beyond eating up table time rolling 30 times after each battle when wounded characters suck on a CLW wand. The variance is trivial compared to the other problems with in-combat healing.
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Cablop,
Point One: Your view of HP is somewhat at odds with the game. HP ARE a resource. HP are the main spendable resources of martials.
Spells + HP are the resource of casters.
In other words, a martial's adventuring day is done when his HP are low. A caster's adventuring day is done when his spells AND his HP are low.
Point Two: Thus, to keep the scales balanced, martials need not only to have more staying power then casters, to balance the spells, but also must recover them faster, since casters get spells AND some hp back over night.
For a ridiculous example, a fighter and wizard get into a brawl, and both are pounded unconscious. If they both get their level back in HP overnight, the fighter, who specializes in getting into fights and getting up the next day, hard-boiled, tough as iron, etc, will take TWO DAYS LONGER to get back to full health, compared to the bookish wizard who specializes in running away from fights, not enduring beatings.
AND...he has ALL his spells back the next day regardless.
Point Three: I would consider that any class that has access to healing magic has NO NEED for increased healing ability...they just cast a spell.
And EVERY CLASS has access to healing magic, because of the existence of Infernal Healing as an arcane spell (and really, it should be Celestial Healing and G alignment as well, don't you think?).
This is why I am leery of giving rangers, and paladins esp., any kind of bonus healing effect. Paladins can already cast spells and get Lay on Hands for a massive hit point buff...effectively, they have more HP then any martial in the game. They don't need a healing buff.
Rangers can cure wounds as well. If they are laid up, once they hit level 4, two CLW a day will get them on their feet and back to full health, and they can use CLW wands without UMD skill.
Point Four: I don't consider monks needing the benefit because of the existence of Qiggong. If a monk wants to be able to heal, then instead of Barkskin or True strike or whatever, they can choose Cure Moderate Wounds or a better variant, and cast it from a well-stocked ki pool every day, much like Lay On Hands.
Point Five: Supernatural effects are not spellcasting, per the rules, and I would ignore them. Else, the barb wouldn't get a healing bonus (Rage is effectively a supernatural power).
Point Six: It would only hurt Rogues in so far as their BAB is lower then a fighter...but a Rogue isn't a tank, and a slightly smaller bonus isn't punishment, it's a slightly smaller bonus.
Granted, they also can't take the Minor Magic Talent, but eh. If they want to, they can always choose Infernal Healing.
Point Seven: Without better recovery options, melees don't stand up to the trope of being tougher then casters. A martial should be able to recover the majority of his combat damage VERY quickly. Basically, all martials should have some sort of 'healing surge' type option, so they can, without using magic, get back into the fight at a speed which seems superhuman to less combative classes.
Getting more hit points out of healing magic is simply feeding the trope that Martials are quick on the mend.
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I personally worked it this way, for Fighters: A Fighter gets one use of Vigor/day per point of Bravery bonus, and can buy more. THe amount of HP gained = Fighter level + Fort save (including all bonuses). So, it's a slowly scaling amount which he can use in combat to extend his day, or recover very quickly over a few days if no magic is available.
Healing magic used on the fighter uses his fighter level if higher level then the caster level of the effect.
Potions drank by the fighter take place at his fighter level, also, if higher, and healing potions drunk by the fighter heal double the normal amount.
--This last means a Fighter drinks potions where Paladins and Rangers use CLW wands, and both spend the same amount of money. For Paladins adn Rangers, it's an invisible 'class benefit' tied to being able to cast spells. Just being a spellcaster with a list has some major benefits, after all, it's just not spelled out as a 'class benefit'.
And it's why I say casters don't need a buff from healing magic. They can cast it themselves without a UMD check for minimum cost, why would they need a buff from it?
==Aelryinth
Actually, people don't heal in combat until Heal comes online because Cure spells heal a pitiful amount of HP for their action economy cost. Having to roll isn't really an issue beyond eating up table time rolling 30 times after each battle when wounded characters suck on a CLW wand. The variance is trivial compared to the other problems with in-combat healing....
Most people say they don't heal in combat until the "Heal Spell" comes on line and that is because it is a flat amount and there is no chance of rolling poor....
Automatically maximized healing magic would actually be worth using in combat at the appropriate levels, since it would recover more HP then is normally inflicted. However, utility drops off for all lower spells at high levels, except for Heal, which scales evenly all the way to 20, whereas other spells just gain +1 HP/level, a clear difference.
==Aelryinth
Cablop,
Point One: Your view of HP is somewhat at odds with the game. HP ARE a resource. HP are the main spendable resources of martials.
Spells + HP are the resource of casters.In other words, a martial's adventuring day is done when his HP are low. A caster's adventuring day is done when his spells AND his HP are low.
It's not at odds with the game. It is just not obvious. I got this point of view from my first GM. You can think of HPs as a resource, or as a rate, so, you have an individual, A, with 50 HP and another, B, with 100 HP. Each one is a combat unit, no matter what role they play. Divide that unit in their total HPs, that way a HP represents 1/50 of A but just 1/100 of B. They start an adventure at full, A at 50/50 and B at 100/100. After losing 20 HP each, A lost 40% of her life while B lost only 20% of his life. The sad thing is a spell that heals 25 HP, heals 50% of A's life but the same magic only restores 25% of B. In Pokemon terms, "it's not very effective".
Point Two: Thus, to keep the scales balanced, martials need not only to have more staying power then casters, to balance the spells, but also must recover them faster, since casters get spells AND some hp back over night.
For a ridiculous example, a fighter and wizard get into a brawl, and both are pounded unconscious. If they both get their level back in HP overnight, the fighter, who specializes in getting into fights and getting up the next day, hard-boiled, tough as iron, etc, will take TWO DAYS LONGER to get back to full health, compared to the bookish wizard who specializes in running away from fights, not enduring beatings.
AND...he has ALL his spells back the next day regardless.
If you represent it as a rate, bring here A and B, and we are going to assume they're level 10 PCs. They're down. And spent a night and recovered their levels back in HPs, that mean, A heals 10/50, 20%, in a night while B recovers just 10/100, 10%, in the same night. You pointed it right; it is counter-logical, cause, as you said B has more HPs cause it is used to combat or as i say, is healthier (more Con). In either case, he should heal faster than her, not slower. Say B is a fighter so he heals 3xLvl% and A is caster so she heals 1xLvl% you can fix it: A heals 5 HPs, while B heals 30 HPs in the same night. In four nights B is more than done but "doctors" say A has to stay six days more.
Point Three: I would consider that any class that has access to healing magic has NO NEED for increased healing ability...they just cast a spell.
And EVERY CLASS has access to healing magic, because of the existence of Infernal Healing as an arcane spell (and really, it should be Celestial Healing and G alignment as well, don't you think?).
This is why I am leery of giving rangers, and paladins esp., any kind of bonus healing effect. Paladins can already cast spells and get Lay on Hands for a massive hit point buff...effectively, they have more HP then any martial in the game. They don't need a healing buff.
Rangers can cure wounds as well. If they are laid up, once they hit level 4, two CLW a day will get them on their feet and back to full health, and they can use CLW wands without UMD skill.
If i accept your point of view in a game - and i like to do it to test it - i have to agree with what you are saying. But for when i use my point of view on HPs i cannot do the same. I tend to give rare items to characters with no healing by magic[1].
Point Four: I don't consider monks needing the benefit because of the existence of Qiggong. If a monk wants to be able to heal, then instead of Barkskin or True strike or whatever, they can choose Cure Moderate Wounds or a better variant, and cast it from a well-stocked ki pool every day, much like Lay On Hands.
And what if they don't? They are not forced to use CMW. I cannot impose that on my players.
Point Five: Supernatural effects are not spellcasting, per the rules, and I would ignore them. Else, the barb wouldn't get a healing bonus (Rage is effectively a supernatural power).
Do you mean a Barbarian don't get the healing bonus you are giving to the fighter?
Point Six: It would only hurt Rogues in so far as their BAB is lower then a fighter...but a Rogue isn't a tank, and a slightly smaller bonus isn't punishment, it's a slightly smaller bonus.
Granted, they also can't take the Minor Magic Talent, but eh. If they want to, they can always choose Infernal Healing.
I disagree... a Rogue becoming a better trap finder/dis-abler is placing his life at risk all the time. If he becomes the spy, again, at risk. His "resource" are not the HPs, but his skills. So he is punished hard for not having a high BAB.
Point Seven: Without better recovery options, melees don't stand up to the trope of being tougher then casters. A martial should be able to recover the majority of his combat damage VERY quickly. Basically, all martials should have some sort of 'healing surge' type option, so they can, without using magic, get back into the fight at a speed which seems superhuman to less combative classes.
Getting more hit points out of healing magic is simply feeding the trope that Martials are quick on the mend.
I agree. But if someone multi-class and take some fighter levels i grant them that too, diminished, but too. A sorcerer that takes fighter levels is less effective in magic than a pure sorcerer but has magic the pure fighter don't have (same if he is a magus). So i'd give him some benefit too for not going the pure magic way. If i punish him for that, then he is simply not moving into Fighter class and i'm punishing him for willing to get fighter levels.
If you want you can give an additional feature to pure fighters, that 'healing surge', like the channel energy or sneak attack. Something that just improves as long as you level. Other classes can take it using a feat, so maybe a magus can take it, but must spent a costly feat on it, same a monk. Sadly a Wiz/Sor doesn't qualify for that feat.
[1] E.g., at one point the party traveled to other plane, more advanced, futuristic, yadayada. When they came back, the sword master just came back with one of the best first aid books ever and he spent enough time there to understand it; no one else understand the book so for that campaign he ended being one of the best healers of the party xD.
Guys... i'd suggest you to take a look at the 5e fighter. They gave him some interesting abilities that makes them scary guys at higher levels, like:
- Second Wind
You have a limited well of stamina that you can draw on to protect yourself from harm. On your turn, you can use a bonus action to regain hit points equal to 1d10 + your fighter level. Once you use this feature, you must finish a short or long rest before you can use it again.
- Action Surge
Starting at 2nd level, you can push yourself beyond your normal limits for a moment. On your turn, you can take one additional action on top of your regular action and a possible bonus action.
Once you use this feature, you must finish a short or long rest before you can use it again. Starting at 17th level, you can use it twice before a rest, but only once on the same turn.
- Indomitable
Beginning at 9th level, you can reroll a saving throw that you fail. If you do so, you must use the new roll, and you can’t use this feature again until you finish a long rest.
You can use this feature twice between long rests starting at 13th level and three times between long rests starting at 17th level.
- Ability Score Improvement
When you reach 4th level, and again at 6th, 8th, 12th, 14th, 16th, and 19th level, you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by 1. As normal, you can’t increase an ability score above 20 using this feature.
I think translating those things to PF would make them freaking badasses...
waaay before 5e came along, I was giving extra stat bonuses to martial characters. The additional training they do to make up for not studying spellcasting has to have some benefits, right?
I kept it under control by making the points assign to lowest stat instead of highest.
Fighters and monks get 3 bonus points - to lowest stat, to lowest physical and lowest mental. Train, train, train.
Rogues get lowest mental and lowest physical. Train, train, carouse.
Barbs get lowest physical. Train, rage, carouse.
Cablop, barbarians can pick Raging Vitality and other curing effects. So, no, I wouldn't give them the fighter bonus. I'd give them the +level martial bonus, tho. Supernatural means not a caster. Supernatural does NOT mean non-magical. Heck, if you use Unchained Barb, they get temporary HP, i.e. False Life, just for raging, and so taking identical damage as the fighter, they 'preemptively heal' a good chunk of it away.
Uh, the penalty to a Rogue for the martial bonus is +15 Hp vs +20 HP at level 20, and less at lower levels (1-3 hp behind pre-10th). They'll actually still get back to full HP faster then the fighter with the same amount of healing. Hardly a huge penalty.
And they'd get the double bonus if they don't have Minor Magic.
Re: Monks not taking healing - hey, rangers don't have to take healing magic, either. the option is there. If you want to give them the martial bonus by BAB or level, that's fine, it's your call and your option. But the no-magic doubling bonus...nope. Ki is very definitely a 'magical' power source, just like rage. Being able to dimension door pretty much seals that comparison.
I'm just not a fan of them having healing options AND getting more out of healing. One or the other, not both.
Also, Monks have Wholeness of Body. 1 hp/level may not seem like much, but when you can do it 5-10 times a day, it adds up. Giving them the martial bonus just doubles it to 2 hp/level.
==Aelryinth
Now the think is... How are we going to compile all the ideas thrown in this thread in an easy to navigate place?
Now the think is... How are we going to compile all the ideas thrown in this thread in an easy to navigate place?
Just copy down what Blaclwaltzomega said.
Now the think is... How are we going to compile all the ideas thrown in this thread in an easy to navigate place?Just copy down what Blaclwaltzomega said.
Well... That and Path of War...
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A smaller fix I came up with was introducing something similar to a Proficiency Bonus for Class Skills;
Under this system, rolling a check in a Class Skill would be handled like this;
1d20 + Ranks + Ability Modifier + Misc Bonuses + Proficiency
Proficiency would be calculated as so;
[Total Class Levels] / 2 - [Total Caster Level, from Classes Only]; minimum bonus being +2
So if you were a Level 1 character or a Level 4 character, your Proficiency Bonus would he the same. Once you are level 6 though, it would increase to +3, unless you have Caster Levels, then it would be +2. If you are a Level 10 Fighter, your Proficiency Bonus would be +5 on Class Skills, and if you were a Level 10 Wizard, you would be stuck at +2. If you were a Level 9 Fighter (Proficiency = +4) and a Level 1 Wizard, your total hit dice would be 10, so your Proficiency would be +5... Until you factored in your single Caster Level, then your total would be +4.
Okay, so it isn't perfect as of yet, but it is being worked on.