It appears in recent posts that we've moved a bit from giving more narrative control and/or more to do than just hit things into removing the need for spell casters at all. I cannot say I'd be any more for that than I would the current state of affairs where spell casters don't need martials.
I'm not sure the answer to all of this is to give martials the exact same abilities or the ability to solve every problem without the other. The game was designed to be somewhat cooperative.
What if we did the opposite and list things casters can't do or can't do well and give materials better options to do that stuff. That way class depency is more even.
Now book rat is in here doing the same thing to sword.
What was I doing?
I questioned about the accusation of lying and was shown to be wrong. I admitted my error as well. I then posted a follow up question for clarity and was shown to be wrong there as well. Sword provided citations and/or quotes in both instances.
I am entirely uncertain how that qualifies as heckling or insulting in any way, shape, or form.
I was trying to form a list of things that non-casters couldn't contribute to. This was more for DMs choosing the challenges for adventures rather than home brewing new rules because this thread was about keeping the game essentially the same.
As usual the discussion polarised between people convinced their own opinion is the only valid one and determined to belittle other posters. It became incredibly confrontational and yes a bit offensive. I disagree with Ashiel's assessment of some of things on his list - several unresolved rules debates are presented by him as cold fact. "Either gross ignorance or dishonesty"...? That's not how I was taught to talk to people. I don't have an axe to grind in this thread so instead I will let you guys crack on.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
What if we did the opposite and list things casters can't do or can't do well and give materials better options to do that stuff. That way class depency is more even.It appears in recent posts that we've moved a bit from giving more narrative control and/or more to do than just hit things into removing the need for spell casters at all. I cannot say I'd be any more for that than I would the current state of affairs where spell casters don't need martials.
I'm not sure the answer to all of this is to give martials the exact same abilities or the ability to solve every problem without the other. The game was designed to be somewhat cooperative.
Sure. Here you go:
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Sure. Here you go:What if we did the opposite and list things casters can't do or can't do well and give materials better options to do that stuff. That way class depency is more even.It appears in recent posts that we've moved a bit from giving more narrative control and/or more to do than just hit things into removing the need for spell casters at all. I cannot say I'd be any more for that than I would the current state of affairs where spell casters don't need martials.
I'm not sure the answer to all of this is to give martials the exact same abilities or the ability to solve every problem without the other. The game was designed to be somewhat cooperative.
And therein is the problem. Casters are generally seen as being able to do most anything, given summons, wishes, basic spells and so on. A step I tend to favor is to start subtracting from them while looking for things to bolster non-casters to smooth out the issues.
Of course, this can lead to complaints that one is nerfing the caster. I don't have a problem with that; casters could use some nerfing.
Everyone talks about it but truthfully in practice I've rarely seen this problem...
Anecdote.
More likely I'm dealing with Paladin disparity, where the Paladin pops Smite Evil and wrecks what could have otherwise been an epic encounter.
Martials are good at combat; that's not the issue.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
By sharing your ideas, you're no longer insulting others ideas, but instead enlightening us on what you think is best for "your" game, you will be contributing in a far better way than now.Oh, wow. You're complaining about Ashiel not "contributing".
If you want to see Ashiel's work, check out the Ask Ashiel thread. Ashiel has created a skill-based magic system from scratch, and is redesigning the pathfinder class structure from the ground up. Is that your idea of "not contributing"?But it goes back to what I said upthread
It's not going to stop people from whining, though. No matter what, the of the world will always complain that "no one every proposes solutions" to C/M disparity. No matter how often people not only propose solutions, but write, publish, and make a living off of those solutions.All solutions are met with complaints of "no one ever posts solutions":|
The willful ignorance you need to exercise astounding.
Perhaps he could link that to this thread then? Shouldn't be too hard I believe. Because in this thread He's contributed nothing but problems then attacked other people's solutions.
I'm not here bringing up other threads, especially since Chris Lambertz specifically asked to avoid that when this thread got moved. If some one has written extensive rewrites in then off topic section, and wants to contribute to the home brew section, then they can link threads.
Now L37ben, do you have ideas you'd like to contribute, or are you going to call me wilfully ignorant some more?
Okay, 400 posts, screw that. What'd I miss? Is this still a productive thread? This looks arguey.
|
|
Everyone talks about it but truthfully in practice I've rarely seen this problem...Anecdote.
More likely I'm dealing with Paladin disparity, where the Paladin pops Smite Evil and wrecks what could have otherwise been an epic encounter.Martials are good at combat; that's not the issue.
Everyone's opinions in this thread are just anecdotes.
However this thread isn't about if the problem exists, it's about proposing options for people who do think it exists.
Liegence and I seem to have similar experience in disparity issue. Either it doesn't exist, or it exists but we've already found ways that means it's not a problem for us.
Let's work on the second assumption for this thread.
Of all the ones in the list earlier posted by Sword, and Ashiel as well, the only narrative one I would have to work hard at resolving would probably be the well played Succubi. If that is the narrative you're after, coming up with campaign reasonable solution for non casters isn't coming to me easily.
All the others "I" could handle happily using my method, but my method doesn't suit everyone. Quotations used instead of italics, cos using that formatting on iPad is painful.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Sure. Here you go:What if we did the opposite and list things casters can't do or can't do well and give materials better options to do that stuff. That way class depency is more even.It appears in recent posts that we've moved a bit from giving more narrative control and/or more to do than just hit things into removing the need for spell casters at all. I cannot say I'd be any more for that than I would the current state of affairs where spell casters don't need martials.
I'm not sure the answer to all of this is to give martials the exact same abilities or the ability to solve every problem without the other. The game was designed to be somewhat cooperative.
And therein is the problem. Casters are generally seen as being able to do most anything, given summons, wishes, basic spells and so on. A step I tend to favor is to start subtracting from them while looking for things to bolster non-casters to smooth out the issues.
Of course, this can lead to complaints that one is nerfing the caster. I don't have a problem with that; casters could use some nerfing.
I concur. The tools that martials have available are also available to casters. The tools that casters have available are not available to martials. Fighting? Available to both (martials through their own skill, casters through summons or their own skill or their own buffs). Skills? Freely available to all and often more available to casters. Magical equipment? Available to all, but cheaper for casters and typically requires a caster to make them available to begin with. And now we're out of tools for martials. From there, we have tools available to casters, which is the last tool is we have: spells. And not only are those spells available, but they increase in power drastically as casters level up.
Each of these should be addressed.
For spells, There are two key components of 5e and PF Psionics that I really enjoy that needs casters: 1) Stop auto-power increase by leveling. In order to gain a more powerful version of a Spell, you either have to use a higher level spell slot (5e) or spend more points (PF Psionics). 2) Prevent more than one buff/debuff at a time by making many spells have concentration, and you can't hold more than one concentration spell at a time. This curbs a lot of the drastic power increase. From there, one could ban specific problem spells.
For skills, I like to start wth giving martials more skill points. I also greatly enjoy using the Unchained skill options, but make them more available to other martial classes instead of just the rogue. I've also heard that Ashiel made a good skill system, but i haven't read t yet. By making skills simply *better* for martials, such as the swim skill eventually granting a swim speed, etc, we could increase martial power. I also saw a good response to Ashiel's list on the last page that proposed improved skills.
Fighting? I think I'll include feats in this, because a fighter's power comes from the feats. Other martials, too, but rogue and barb have their own thing (which could be improved; especially the rogue). One major change I'd like to see do me feats is auto power increase, like Power Attack. A simple fix would be to give a martial classes more feats. I've seen one proposal that ups the feats to 2-3 per level for the fighter and 1-2 for other martials. Or give the next feat in the chain automatically when they'd gain a new feat (and also the new feat choice); this could simulate auto power increases for feats (which aren't as powerful as spells). I think a weaker quadratic progression of feats could be a good pairing with a stronger linear progression of spells.
Lastly, magical equipment. We could simply make the Master Crafstman feat use Spellcraft so martials could make magical items - they'd just need a scroll or assistance from a caster for the specific spells to make the item - but the martial class could be the one driving the Forge. I've also made a suggestion for martial classes to directly acquire magic items as if they crafted them, but it didn't go over to well in the comments.
Okay, 400 posts, screw that. What'd I miss? Is this still a productive thread? This looks arguey.
There has been a good deal of back and forth, but also some interesting ideas. Not a lot of solutions, mind you, but some good jumping off points to work with.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Everyone's opinions in this thread are just anecdotes.Everyone talks about it but truthfully in practice I've rarely seen this problem...Anecdote.
More likely I'm dealing with Paladin disparity, where the Paladin pops Smite Evil and wrecks what could have otherwise been an epic encounter.Martials are good at combat; that's not the issue.
That's not what anecdote means.
Pointing out things like "Martials have no equivalent to this list of spells", or "Martials have a much harder time with this set of challenges" and showing it using the system rules is not an anecdote. Saying "I've never had a problem with it" (or for that matter, "Wizards ruin my campaigns") is.
|
|
Okay, 400 posts, screw that. What'd I miss? Is this still a productive thread? This looks arguey.There has been a good deal of back and forth, but also some interesting ideas. Not a lot of solutions, mind you, but some good jumping off points to work with.
The two like the most so far are
- create a feat for ritual magic that anyone can take. Convert many problem spells to rituals. Teleport, commune like ones, gate, wish etc. remove selected rituals from spell lists.
- change skills to be based off main stat rather than just intelligence. Make spells that replace skills buff the trained skill instead. So eg, fighters get 2+str mod skills. Str mod gets spent on appropriate skills and the +2 can be spent anywhere. Wizards get 2+int mod, same deal for where they can be spent etc. if you haven't trained a skill, you can't benefit from a magic buff for it. (This is one Jiggy and I came up with so I'm biased, but I do really like it)
I like them because they make minimal change compared to some other ideas. They also add a new set of options for magic gear in terms of ritual books etc and skill buffing items or potions.
The first one allows powerful stuff to be accessed by anyone. The second one allows niches to be still present in a group and prevents magic from negating skill use at all.
|
|
Everyone's opinions in this thread are just anecdotes.Everyone talks about it but truthfully in practice I've rarely seen this problem...Anecdote.
More likely I'm dealing with Paladin disparity, where the Paladin pops Smite Evil and wrecks what could have otherwise been an epic encounter.Martials are good at combat; that's not the issue.That's not what anecdote means.
Pointing out things like "Martials have no equivalent to this list of spells", or "Martials have a much harder time with this set of challenges" and showing it using the system rules is not an anecdote. Saying "I've never had a problem with it" (or for that matter, "Wizards ruin my campaigns") is.
Except that for any of the scenarios presented so far, my groups have never had an issue with solving them. So, your anecdote is these are problems, my anecdote is these are not.
You point at rules, I point at published settings and adventures and APs to show how these situations have been dealt with on a number of occasions.
I stated above the only one I personally would struggle with without making it look ridiculous. But maybe to someone else that's not a problem.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ooooh, and something from the back and forth with Ashiel.
I think master craftsman should allow Martials to make all weapons and armour ignoring the requisite skill check. It becomes its own check, like a casters spellcraft.
Before this thread I hadn't realised how restrictive that feat was.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You point at rules, I point at published settings and adventures and APs to show how these situations have been dealt with on a number of occasions.
I'm still amazed about the ouija board thing. I mean god. That's so stupid. I sincerely hope that it's actually done by a mage hiding the shadows using mage hand.
Okay, 400 posts, screw that. What'd I miss? Is this still a productive thread? This looks arguey.There has been a good deal of back and forth, but also some interesting ideas. Not a lot of solutions, mind you, but some good jumping off points to work with.The two like the most so far are
- create a feat for ritual magic that anyone can take. Convert many problem spells to rituals. Teleport, commune like ones, gate, wish etc. remove selected rituals from spell lists.
- change skills to be based off main stat rather than just intelligence. Make spells that replace skills buff the trained skill instead. So eg, fighters get 2+str mod skills. Str mod gets spent on appropriate skills and the +2 can be spent anywhere. Wizards get 2+int mod, same deal for where they can be spent etc. if you haven't trained a skill, you can't benefit from a magic buff for it. (This is one Jiggy and I came up with so I'm biased, but I do really like it)
I like them because they make minimal change compared to some other ideas. They also add a new set of options for magic gear in terms of ritual books etc and skill buffing items or potions.
The first one allows powerful stuff to be accessed by anyone. The second one allows niches to be still present in a group and prevents magic from negating skill use at all.
Interesting idea with skills. My one problem with it: Why bother? If you base it off of the highest ability, basically everyone gets the same bonus—except, of course, for MAD PCs, who inevitably end up with fewer since they don't put it all in one ability. So it's a needless moving part that still benefits casters.
It seems like it might be better to base the bonus off of something else, but I can't think of what. Maybe just give classes a constant skill point number? So, rogues get 12, fighters get 6, wizards get 6, etc. Basically just assume they all have a +4.
|
|
yeah, but if we group the skills into
strength skills
dex skills
con skills
int skills
wis
char
Then certain classes can only dip into those without using the bonus 2 points. You remove the class skill lists and just give each class a main stat that they get stats from.
So fighter gets str, barbarian con, ranger dex, wiz int, sorc char etc.
This plays to their strengths, but they can only choose the majority of skills from the list in their range.
This helps keep it niche.
I would remove endurance as a feat, for example, and add an endurance skill based of Con that allows for miraculous stuff to happen in extreme environments.
For all I know this could already have been done somewhere else.
|
|
You point at rules, I point at published settings and adventures and APs to show how these situations have been dealt with on a number of occasions.I'm still amazed about the ouija board thing. I mean god. That's so stupid. I sincerely hope that it's actually done by a mage hiding the shadows using mage hand.
its a magic stone actually. Can be used on any board. They also had jars to absorb hauntings, which you could then throw as necrotic bombs. Anyone could use them.
I understand you don't like those fixes, but the APs are filled with stuff like this. I suspect it comes from the design premise that I've read so often.
yeah, but if we group the skills into
strength skills
dex skills
con skills
int skills
wis
charThen certain classes can only dip into those without using the bonus 2 points. You remove the class skill lists and just give each class a main stat that they get stats from.
So fighter gets str, barbarian con, ranger dex, wiz int, sorc char etc.
This plays to their strengths, but they can only choose the majority of skills from the list in their range.This helps keep it niche.
I would remove endurance as a feat, for example, and add an endurance skill based of Con that allows for miraculous stuff to happen in extreme environments.
For all I know this could already have been done somewhere else.
I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing, and I can't tell what you're saying (I may be tired). Can you restate this somehow?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
its a magic stone actually. Can be used on any board. They also had jars to absorb hauntings, which you could then throw as necrotic bombs. Anyone could use them.
....
So the way to speak to dead non-magically through the oujia board.... is through magic. Yeah... that's not a martial option then.
its a magic stone actually. Can be used on any board. They also had jars to absorb hauntings, which you could then throw as necrotic bombs. Anyone could use them.....
So the way to speak to dead non-magically through the oujia board.... is through magic. Yeah... that's not a martial option then.
What non-magical way would you suggest?
As an aside to all of this: I'm reminded of the DC Crisis story from a few years back where Superboy punched his way through time and space and the fans lost their minds about it. There is a certain level of expectation, it seems, even from fans of the fantastic that there are certain ways to do things and when you go outside of that, people tend to freak.
You've all forgotten the thing that makes Martials so much better then caster! Simple thing called sleep. if you can't rest, you can't get spells back.No one forgot that. It's just that everyone except you is aware of spells like rope trick, magnificent mansion, and plane shift.
Or we remember that fatigue screws over martials rather heavily. -2 to Str and Dex is nothing to laugh at. That becomes -1 to hit, -1 or 2 to damage, -1 to CMB, -1 to initiative, -1 to AC, and -2 to CMD.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I find the constant disparity calls to be incredibly bad for the community to be honest Wheezy. It annoys people, instead of you saying, "Disparity, disparity, disparity" all the time it might be better to focus on the positives or simply accept that all iterations of this game system have these kinds of problems.
To hear people constantly complain about this, over and over again, is well... Pointless... This has been complained about for decades Wheezy. DECADES. X class is better than Y class. X class levels faster than Y class. There has never, and will never, be a fix that makes everything 1:1 paired.
So how about this... I'm just bowing out. You can complain about this until the end of time, because it's not going to change, because any change to it would just make people more angry.
Actually, this and the thread that spawned it were fairly constructive until people showed up going (and I paraphrase) "Blah, blah, blah, you're all stupid and there is no martial/caster disparity stop trying to fix it and just play the game like I tell you to". This is not only not helpful, it is actively harmful and breeds negativity. If you don't have issues with martial/caster disparity, then stay out of the threads addressing it. The vast majority of the martial/caster disparity threads started by those who see it as an issue are generally very amicable and constructive, at least until someone comes along with their "You're doing it wrong" rant and derail the thread, turning constructive and helpful conversation into a flame war.
You want to part of the reason so many of these threads exist? Because people like you, often specifically you come in with a holier and wiser than thou attitude and ruin it, so people wait a while, then sneak back in with a new thread to try and restart helpful conversation whilr quietly crossing their fingers and praying that you or someone like you doesn't show up and ruin things again, sadly a futile hope if history is any example....
HWalsh does actually believe in the disparity. He has commented that he likes having some classes that are decidedly inferior.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
He seems to be drawing a line between magic and magical items.
And Ashiel, I think Oils of Bless Weapon are like standard issue in PFS. I'm not sure about the other alignments, but getting a DR puncher for x/good isn't that hard.
And actually I believe alchemical fire is considered an AoE attack on a swarm, thus doing double damage if it hits the square a swarm occupies. If the swarm occupies more then one square, then ALL that splash damage it takes gets doubled, too...one of the rare instances where occupying multiple squares could mean you take more damage from an attack! (the interpretation gets a bit hazy here)
More to the point, alchemical fire stacks, so if you've got a bunch of it, yeah, you can certainly deal with most landbound swarms.
Now, flying ones...good luck. At least swimming ones you can use alchemical frost or lightning against...I suppose you could dump alchemical fire on yourself and let the swarm burn itself to death on you, if you've got some fire resistance...
==Aelryinth
What non-magical way would you suggest?
1. Either accept that there isn't a non-magical way.
2. Go to the afterlife and ask them directly (this is generally rather difficult since most settings do not have non-magical planar travel, but some do so it is possible in some settings).3. Superscience.
What non-magical way would you suggest?1. Either accept that there isn't a non-magical way.
2. Go to the afterlife and ask them directly (this is generally rather difficult since most settings do not have non-magical planar travel, but some do so it is possible in some settings).
Ah cool. #1 is what I would usually go with, although #2 works if you can pull it off ala Hercules I suppose.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Some of back and forth is getting pretty bad guys, maybe a few people need to take some time away or just read and not comment?
I like the expansion of the skill system, skills should have better uses the more points you put into them. The skill unlocks are a great start and should be expanded upon further. Skills would make a huge difference for some of the martial's in the narrative power.
Fighters should have a renown that works like bardic knowledge and it allows them to use their Profession: Solider to gain intel as per knowledge: local.
or just read and not comment?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
yeah, but if we group the skills into
strength skills
dex skills
con skills
int skills
wis
charThen certain classes can only dip into those without using the bonus 2 points. You remove the class skill lists and just give each class a main stat that they get stats from.
So fighter gets str, barbarian con, ranger dex, wiz int, sorc char etc.
This plays to their strengths, but they can only choose the majority of skills from the list in their range.This helps keep it niche.
I would remove endurance as a feat, for example, and add an endurance skill based of Con that allows for miraculous stuff to happen in extreme environments.
For all I know this could already have been done somewhere else.
There are no skills that use Constitution. If you added a skill that used Constitution, that would bring the total to 1. An endurance skill would also be very passive and really step on the toes of of all the rules that already exist about hazardous environments and even hedge into the area of Fortitude Saves. It also is something that is partially covered by Survival already.
A more elegant solution would be the Barbarian (and maybe Ranger) to have class specific abilities tied to things like Survival and Athletics, basically class only skill unlocks.
|
|
Kobold,
Str skills - athletics, climb, swim, intimidate,
Wis - perception, sense motive etc,
Int- knowledge skills
Cha - diplomacy, intimidate
So there's a sample.
Mr fighter has a strength mod of 4. Using these points he maxes the skills chosen.
He has athletics, climb, swim, intimidate.
He uses the +2 points and sinks one into perception and one sense motive.
So, let's add an addendum here and suggest that skills chosen at level 1 get the proficiency bonus.
Now spells can buff these skills so that things like you get a bonus to perception and maybe even further vision. Or a bonus to climbing skill and you can climb at half speed rather than 1/4. However, the skill has to be trained in order for the magic to work.
So now we have a chance for characters to choose how they want their class to work. If you have a fighter who wants to contribute to social stuff more, he can now choose to do so at first level and be more proficient than before. It also means that the magic that previously replaced the need for skill checks just enhances the people who have the skill instead.
It's a rough idea that needs to be fleshed out more than I can be bothered to put time into, but it sounds simpler to me than some of the other fixes I've seen suggested.
I won't be using it myself, but that's because I use narrative stuff to make this whole thing a non issue for me. Maybe others will like it though.
Edit - oooooh, yeah I like that idea too irontruth. A bit more rewriting but it still works. I was thinking something like climb and swim could be strength or con to be honest, but your idea works just as well.
|
|
its a magic stone actually. Can be used on any board. They also had jars to absorb hauntings, which you could then throw as necrotic bombs. Anyone could use them.....
So the way to speak to dead non-magically through the oujia board.... is through magic. Yeah... that's not a martial option then.
This is our disconnect Milo,
I'm not looking for non magical means to do anything.
I'm looking at it from the perspective of "can my party do this without a caster". For me, the APs provide that sort of stuff all the time.
You don't like those because you effectively want something non magical to the things magic can do too. I understand that, but I'll never come up with ways to solve it.
My concern with that is if you give non magical methods to solve magic problems, it's as bad as giving magic solutions to solve mundane problems. I feel it bloats the system rather than streamlines it. I also feel it would make DMing and writing plots harder, not easier. Now everyone has methods to completely negate large amounts of plot stuff and setting stuff.
I'd prefer to have a situation where as a DM I can write my narrative in a cool setting knowing that people will have challenges. If prepared it might be easier, but it still needs to be a challenge. Giving too many tools out makes writing those things much miuch harder.
I guess if it comes down to it, I'd rather nerd the magic side of things than buff the martial side of things. But all of that is just my opinion and explains why I keep giving my suggestions and you keep disagreeing with them.
|
|
Something else for the skills.
Have a crafting skills section. It isn't specialised, just covers craft and profession.
Split spellcraft into - magic law ( identify spells etc), crafting law(crafting magic items)
Magic law goes into intelligence, crafting law goes into the craft section. This now opens up crafting of magical items to far more groups of classes if they want to go that way as spellcraft no longer exists. It acts to both free up crafting for all classes, and restrict crafting to more specialised areas. No more casters able to craft everything. Now a character may be able to craft one or two types of items at best, forcing parties to specialise more if they want to craft everything.
Alternately, just get rid of spell craft and roll the identifying spells bit part of knowledge arcana.
Then create the crafting law skill.
So now, a crafter needs craft jewellery and crafting law to make magic rings and amulets etc. no need for meta magic feats.
They need craft armour and crating law to make magical armour and shields, no need for meta magic feats or master craftsman.
This forces players to really choose if they want to craft in their career, rather than have it as just an addendum that casters can do as well if they feel like it.
|
|
What non-magical way would you suggest?1. Either accept that there isn't a non-magical way.
2. Go to the afterlife and ask them directly (this is generally rather difficult since most settings do not have non-magical planar travel, but some do so it is possible in some settings).
3. Superscience.
Would you accept something like smoking a fungus to allow visions of the dead in the realm of the dead. Like a means of unshackling your soul to commune with spirits.
A bit like the Navaho payohti rituals to find their spirit totems. (Spelled some words deliberately incorrect there to get around stupid iPad trying to constantly use auto correct).
Again, just nerfing casters because its easier and making no one capable of changing the game dynamic destroys pen and paper. Your just playing a super linear story with worse writing and dialogue than a triple a videogame. I'd rather play the game at that point.
Not to mention that it just sounds like another low magic tabletop clone. How many of those are there now? Pretty sure the lord of the rings niche is covered in Spades.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm not looking for non magical means to do anything.
I'm looking at it from the perspective of "can my party do this without a caster". For me, the APs provide that sort of stuff all the time.
You don't like those because you effectively want something non magical to the things magic can do too. I understand that, but I'll never come up with ways to solve it.
My concern with that is if you give non magical methods to solve magic problems, it's as bad as giving magic solutions to solve mundane problems. I feel it bloats the system rather than streamlines it. I also feel it would make DMing and writing plots harder, not easier. Now everyone has methods to completely negate large amounts of plot stuff and setting stuff.
I'd prefer to have a situation where as a DM I can write my narrative in a cool setting knowing that people will have challenges. If prepared it might be easier, but it still needs to be a challenge. Giving too many tools out makes writing those things much miuch harder.
I guess if it comes down to it, I'd rather nerd the magic side of things than buff the martial side of things. But all of that is just my opinion and explains why I keep giving my suggestions and you keep disagreeing with them.
To me, the reason why I'm searching for a non-magical answer is because the issue is "magic can do too much, while non-magic can only stab things better than casters". If a magic item is the answer to an issue, then that means the caster is till better since they have things like crafting feats and abilities to increase the effect of items (though I only remember one of those off the top of my head). Also the fact that it's relatively rare for the non-magical characters to have any chance of even knowing what item would help in the situation since Spellcraft and Knowledge (Arcana) are rather rare as skills for those characters.
Would you accept something like smoking a fungus to allow visions of the dead in the realm of the dead. Like a means of unshackling your soul to commune with spirits.
If alchemy is non-magical, then yeah I see that as viable. By default that'd be magical, but I personally houserule alchemy to be non-magical so I see that as fine... though it'd probably have an error chance like the divination spells have just to represent that sometimes hallucinations are just hallucinations.
edit:
Again, just nerfing casters because its easier and making no one capable of changing the game dynamic destroys pen and paper. Your just playing a super linear story with worse writing and dialogue than a triple a videogame. I'd rather play the game at that point.
There is a difference between nerfing wizards/druids/oracles/etc. and making no one capable of changing the game dynamic. I've heard of many people simply fixing the problem by banning the fullcasters.
|
|
Again, just nerfing casters because its easier and making no one capable of changing the game dynamic destroys pen and paper. Your just playing a super linear story with worse writing and dialogue than a triple a videogame. I'd rather play the game at that point.
Not to mention that it just sounds like another low magic tabletop clone. How many of those are there now? Pretty sure the lord of the rings niche is covered in Spades.
I haven't said that. I've allowed game changing through rituals that everyone can use
Edit - although I said I'd rather see casters merged than Martials buffed, that's true. However all the solutions I've come up with haven't been about that.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Wrath: The Phantom Solution
Because in this thread He's contributed nothing but problems then attacked other people's solutions.
I haven't attacked anyone's solutions. I have, however, pointed out when someone hasn't actually provided a solution. Or explained why that solution was not a solution.
Sword: Attack of the Fire
As usual the discussion polarised between people convinced their own opinion is the only valid one and determined to belittle other posters. It became incredibly confrontational and yes a bit offensive. I disagree with Ashiel's assessment of some of things on his list - several unresolved rules debates are presented by him as cold fact. "Either gross ignorance or dishonesty"...? That's not how I was taught to talk to people. I don't have an axe to grind in this thread so instead I will let you guys crack on.
I'm not convinced my opinion is the only valid one but I do expect someone to actually give a reason to believe otherwise, especially since everything that I have said is grounded in the actual rules of the game and cross comparisons made.
Especially when the "answers" without house ruling aren't answers at all and just spread misinformation and/or bad advice that could ruin the fun of someone who is inexperienced and reading the boards when they try to make an "effective" martial character by loading up on alchemist fire, the blind fight feat, skill focus Perception + Alertness, Master Craftsman, etc; only to end up failing utterly as they are dismembered by monsters and NPCs who casually foil those tactics by doing things like...standing a few feet to the left.
Pointing out what you cannot rely on is IMHO is the most important step in understanding what you CAN rely on. It's not about us, it's about the readers who are going to be taking notes and trying to learn something about the game. It's best that they not be misinformed.
By the way, energy drain and ability drain are permanent. That's what qualifies them as "drain". It notes this in the actual entries to those game effects.
As to the issue of swarms and alchemist fire, here are the relevant pieces of text.
A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is immune to all weapon damage.
...
A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind. A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.
Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn't designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn't have a numeric entry in the Range column on Table: Weapons), and a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
...
Acid: You can throw a flask of acid as a splash weapon. Treat this attack as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet. A direct hit deals 1d6 points of acid damage. Every creature within 5 feet of the point where the acid hits takes 1 point of acid damage from the splash.
Alchemist's Fire: You can throw a flask of alchemist's fire as a splash weapon. Treat this attack as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet.
A direct hit deals 1d6 points of fire damage. Every creature within 5 feet of the point where the flask hits takes 1 point of fire damage from the splash. On the round following a direct hit, the target takes an additional 1d6 points of damage. If desired, the target can use a full-round action to attempt to extinguish the flames before taking this additional damage. Extinguishing the flames requires a DC 15 Reflex save. Rolling on the ground provides the target a +2 bonus on the save. Leaping into a lake or magically extinguishing the flames automatically smothers the fire.
Holy Water: Holy water damages undead creatures and evil outsiders almost as if it were acid. A flask of holy water can be thrown as a splash weapon.
Treat this attack as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet. A flask breaks if thrown against the body of a corporeal creature, but to use it against an incorporeal creature, you must open the flask and pour the holy water out onto the target. Thus, you can douse an incorporeal creature with holy water only if you are adjacent to it. Doing so is a ranged touch attack that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
A direct hit by a flask of holy water deals 2d4 points of damage to an undead creature or an evil outsider. Each such creature within 5 feet of the point where the flask hits takes 1 point of damage from the splash.
A splash weapon is a ranged weapon that breaks on impact, splashing or scattering its contents over its target and nearby creatures or objects. To attack with a splash weapon, make a ranged touch attack against the target. Thrown splash weapons require no weapon proficiency, so you don't take the –4 nonproficiency penalty. A hit deals direct hit damage to the target, and splash damage to all creatures within 5 feet of the target.
...
You can instead target a specific grid intersection. Treat this as a ranged attack against AC 5. However, if you target a grid intersection, creatures in all adjacent squares are dealt the splash damage, and the direct hit damage is not dealt to any creature. You can't target a grid intersection occupied by a creature, such as a Large or larger creature; in this case, you're aiming at the creature.
So no, alchemist fire is a terrible weapon to use against swarms. Its primary damage is both a weapon and has a single target. The splash damage is only applied once to any creature affected, regardless of how many spaces it takes up (so hitting an ogre with a splash weapon doesn't deal damage for hitting it and then another +4 damage for it being 2x2 squares), and while it is an AOE, the +50% damage does nothing for the 1 damage since unless expressed otherwise it rounds down to 0.
There is no ambiguity here.
I apologize if I sound like I'm coming off harsh. Perhaps I shouldn't say someone is "lying if they say X" and should instead qualify it as "someone is severely misunderstanding how the rules work and is probably - unintentionally - spreading false information that is demonstrably false" but man that's a mouthful and honestly history on the Paizo forums has taught me that it doesn't lead to anyone being any less upset about it.
If my posting offends you, I sincerely apologize. When I first joined the Paizo forums, I tried more delicate attempts at reason. It never worked (much like alchemist fire vs swarms). I've learned it's a lot more effective to just lay it on the line even if it's not pretty and cut through the formalities.
Wrath: Revenge of the Malcontent
So then Ashiel, since this is the home brew area, and you feel everyone else's responses aren't good enough to fix "your" game, please propose the fixes to these conundrums of apparent disparity.
I gave what I was asked to give. Further, aside from "Here's a list of classes that have issues and some pitfalls to avoid" (which I've given to the chronic ire of certain posters), there's not a simple solution. The issues permeate the current incarnation of the d20-fantasy system and its two predecessors (3.5 and 3.0) and have shifted around with each retelling but there is no magic block (no pun intended).
Nor is it particularly reasonable to suggest that unless someone has a solution that they should hold their tongue if another proposed solution isn't a solution.
Thread: An Odd Hope
However...
By sharing your ideas, you're no longer insulting others ideas, but instead enlightening us on what you think is best for "your" game, you will be contributing in a far better way than now.
As a generic overview...
1. The entire skill system needs to be reworked to reward investiture in those skills that allow you to compete with magic in practical ways.Example: You've invested X ranks into SKILL. You can now do AMAZING THING.
2. Martial characters need methods of influencing the world and the narrative of the game. Ideally without resorting to magic.
Example: This one is difficult to define because in Pathfinder, martials have little way of acting on the world or adapting themselves to the world. I gave an example of a generic wizard who has a conjured minion stalk the party, spy on them, and collect stuff to further his schemes.
It's difficult to even begin thinking of equivalent things that martials can do. It's a struggle to find answers and there's no simple answer (it's something I'm still figuring out in detail myself and when I have a concrete answer I intend to share it). The closest answer in Pathfinder is giving martials reduced casting (like Paladins and Rangers) that can let them influence their worlds at least a little bit.
At the moment, I don't think there is a solution that won't be considered to "animu" or "wuXia" by people like the OP because some people won't be happy with martials that do amazing things. There are lots of people on the Paizo forums alone who get upset when you point out that a 10th level Fighter can pound his way through a stone wall with his fists (right down to immediately suggesting that the GMs should put a stop to that).
Frankly, I don't care. Cuchulain was a super saiyen before Goku and Grognard tears are really good at cleaning off rust.
3. Magic needs to be a bit more fair and well defined without destroying staples. The biggest issue here is that a lot of magic needs to be rewritten. Banning lots of spells just ends up killing staples. I posted a revision of simulacrum a while back on the forums (it's still floating around in a few threads) that I wrote simply because another poster I liked didn't like how powerful the normal simulacrum was, but I wrote it to have the same themes and tropes and be used for the same things without being so easily abused.
We need things like Teleporting, Summoning, Binding, Simulacrums, Wishes, Miracles, Wildshaping Druids, Mind Control, Animate Dead, Plane Hopping, Magic Jar, Trap the Soul, etc, etc, etc. These things are staples, they're classics, and they're fuel. However we could probably do without things like no-resistance Geas, or being able to make a Simulacrum of Cthulu, or snow-cone wish factories (okay, maybe we can keep this one *kidding*).
Finding a good balance is tricky but I'm actively working on it.
Jesting: The Facedesk Strikes Back
Who knows, maybe you'll even save your desk from further damage.
I find your lack of foresight disturbing.
Appreciation: Return of the Awesome
Oh, wow. You're complaining about Ashiel not "contributing".
Thanks! <(^-^)7
You're my only hope. :D
...
I might be anxious to see the new Star Wars... >_>
Thanks! <(^-^)7
You're my only hope. :D
...
I might be anxious to see the new Star Wars... >_>
No, there is another.
And another.:D
full casters are so powerful as to be literal gods. I think it's OK for PC classes to be nerfed slightly from literal god status.Again, just nerfing casters because its easier and making no one capable of changing the game dynamic destroys pen and paper. Your just playing a super linear story with worse writing and dialogue than a triple a videogame. I'd rather play the game at that point.
Not to mention that it just sounds like another low magic tabletop clone. How many of those are there now? Pretty sure the lord of the rings niche is covered in Spades.
I don't disagree. That said, the majority of this thread has been nerf nerf nerf. Can we have a solution that comes from the other side please. Please?
I play pathfinder because its high fantasy and all of the solutions proposed offer nothing in the way of a warrior who could plausibly survive the environment that they clearly live in.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hey, I also wanted to respond to Aelryinth! I try to not skip anyone if they're talking to me. :o
He seems to be drawing a line between magic and magical items.
And Ashiel, I think Oils of Bless Weapon are like standard issue in PFS. I'm not sure about the other alignments, but getting a DR puncher for x/good isn't that hard.
Yeah, I'm a huge proponent of cheap consumables. Bless weapon pots are one of my favorite ones. :D
The thing is, it goes back to that thing where no muggle can make them, which goes back to needing casters to function. You can buy them, thankfully, because being a level 1 spell at CL 1 (thanks Paladins, we love you) it's cheap.
Unfortunately for other alignments it costs about 300 gp / pop for 30 rounds. That gets pretty pricey really fast and when you reach higher levels where the minions have at-will dispels it also becomes really irritating to have to keep applying oils each round. :(
I still wish that a Fighter with Craft (Alchemy) could make potions. (Q_Q)
As far as balance metrics, where do you think class abilities should be on the spectrum of power? I was kind of thinking along the lines of class abilities being as strong as a spell two levels lower than the highest available for a full caster. So if a caster can fire off seventh level spells at level x, then a fighter would be able to access class abilities that are equivalent to a fifth level spell, just with fewer restrictions(uses per day etc.).