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So I'm going to say straigt up, that as a player, I enjoy it far more when the PCs overcome a challenge by working together than if I get to roflstomp something. Additionally, I don't have to be the hero, I like working together. I enjoy a group of people who are well balanced and can overcome a situation, than playing the character I want to play.
I guess that's a roundabout way of saying I'm a team player.
Recently, however, I've noticed that all of my spellcasters are basically debuff-removers. I've been in so many bad encounters that the party needed x spell or Y ability to overcome that my characters only have enough to plan for that.
I have an oracle that, by level 12, can do nothing in combat but damage control. He has surpress charms and compulsions, freedom of movement, liberating command, breath of life, communal align weapon, communal energy resist, communal air walk . . . he is basically useless in combat because I didn't have room for other attack spells or anything to do in combat (other than spear of purity, searing light, and for buffs: blessing of fervor.)
My other characters are following suit. I have an animist shaman who memorizes things like unbreakable heart, and so on.
I just don't know what to do. I'd like to contribute to combats but still be prepared for when BS tactics go down like half the party gets confused. Any suggestions?
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Carry scrolls, and grab a few offensive spells for combat. Align weapon and air walk are two spells that probably work well on scrolls, as well as less-common debuff removers.
A Mnemonic vestment will help if you need to use a scroll with limited actions, or abilities that only work with cast spells.
If you focus on a few versatile combat spells you can get away without taking too many. Something without SR, something non-mind-affecting, maybe a summon monster spell, etc.
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Carry scrolls, and grab a few offensive spells for combat. Align weapon and air walk are two spells that probably work well on scrolls, as well as less-common debuff removers.
A Mnemonic vestment will help if you need to use a scroll with limited actions, or abilities that only work with cast spells.
If you focus on a few versatile combat spells you can get away without taking too many. Something without SR, something non-mind-affecting, maybe a summon monster spell, etc.
Yeah, the thing is, I already do that. I have mnumonic vestments and scrolls of resto, daylight, unwanted halo, and a few others. I actually carried a communal align weapon scroll for a while before I picked it as a spell known.
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Buffs for your party members is contributing to combat. You're helping them defeat the encounter, because without those buffs or abilities, your party members would be screwed. It's fine to ask for other ways to contribute, but saying buffs aren't contributing is silly, especially when I'd need the Hundred Hand Monster from 3.X to count how many times a Bless spell would've caused a successful hit, which leads to damage, which leads to defeating monsters.
If you're lacking in the Spells department (sounds like you are), Pages of Spell Knowledge are your friend. For 1,000 gold, you can carry a Page of Spell Knowledge containing Divine Favor, and boom, that's a +3 to Attack and Damage for you in melee combat. Compared to the Bless spell, that's some really powerful stuff, and will keep you relevant in melee combat. Run around with a Two-Handed Weapon, pump your Strength, and go to town. I'd doubly recommend this if you're willing to dip a couple levels of Paladin, raising your BAB, Saves, and other goodies up. Providing Smite Evil, Lay on Hands, etc. Can be a real nice endeavor in keeping you relevant without really relying on spellpower.
4,000 gold provides you Spiritual Weapon. With a Toppling Metamagic Rod, you're dealing Force damage while causing Trip Attempts everytime the Spiritual Weapon does damage, meaning you're making enemies waste actions standing up instead of Full Attacking. The best part is that it can happen to creatures of any size, and you're saving the Martials a lot of chances of getting their face beaten in.
Consider going an Aid Another route, especially if you're low on spells. Providing bonuses to their lower iteratives to hit (such as by readying an Aid Another Action for their last attack), or providing a bonus to a High hit (or a mid-lower hit) might save them quite a bit of damage. Providing flanking (Spiritual Ally spell can accomplish this) and making battlefield control would also make your allies more powerful on top of the buffs that you've given them. With +5 Benevolent Armor (or +5 Benevolent Weapon), that's +7 to an attack roll or AC for a single attack, which can give them more hits, or prevent them from taking more hits.
Dividing and Conquering with spells like Dismissal, Suggestion, Command, Hold Person, etc. Are all really powerful effects that can remove your need to be a reactive caster by being a proactive caster.
I'd suggest more, but some more Build info would be needed, such as by what Mystery you chose, what Feats you have, your Saves, HP, etc. So as to help guide you forward.
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Pages of spell knowledge are a good idea. Otherwise, you'll just have to make sacrifices of which spells to take and leave. You only know so many spells, unless you're part human and can take the favored class bonus for tons of spells.
On scrolls, you can never have too many. My characters spend quite a bit on scrolls for emergency situations.
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The thing is that my Oracle is basically semi-retired now. I was fine for basically casting blessing of fervor and then leaving the rest to the party (unless they got in trouble) for one character, but now I've noticed that my other spellscasters are doing it too.
Buffs are fine, but these characters aren't buffers. They are debuff-removers.
I guess I've just been burned one too many times by the party taking chain lightnings to the face and the gm saying "Should have had communal resist energy" or being stuck in deeper darkness and the GM saying "should have had daylight" or the party's been unable to hurt the creature with DR 15/good and the GM saying "Should have had communal align weapon" or other things like that.
Keep in mind that these are all seperate instances with seperate GMs. This is not one GM being a dick.
Basically now whenever I make a spellcaster I IMMEDIATLY go for the debuff-removal spells because I don't like getting caught in situations where I can't do anything, remembering all those other times, and then my characters basically do nothing in 90% of combats if things are going well.
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Scrolls. Consumables like potions or minor wondrous items that give you an extra spell to cast. Also summoning spells; crowd up the battlefield with a couple "negative spell absorbers" which, if not targeted by Confusion instead provide a wall of flesh to keep you defended for a round while you buff up.
For that matter mundane tricks and tactics. A simple Smokestick for example removes line of sight. Maybe it only lasts a round at this level, but that's a round you can take prepping for an attack instead of playing on the defensive.
Basically you want to move from damage control/restoration to offense right? Well the only way you get there is consciously deciding to be offensive rather than reactionary. When the "BS" spells hit is it better to have dropped several D6 damage on your foe and then throw a scroll of Restoration on your friend or vice versa.
Lastly talk to your fellow players and GM. Let them know your concerns and ask what you can do as well as maybe asking them if they're willing to change.
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Gotta say, as a PFS player, it sounds like if you sat down at a table with me, I would be buying you a round of beers afterwards. The debuff remover role acts as a massive force multiplier that makes the whole party not implode when something goes slightly wrong.
I remember back in the days of 3.5, the raging leaping power attacking Barbarian build that could 1 shot anything as long as they could rage, charge, jump and hit. If any of these conditions weren't met, the entire build sort of fell apart. So many characters I play with fail to plan for common disruptive tactics. Confusion, as you mentioned. Melee characters with no way to reach something more than 5 feet in front of their face. Characters with terrible saves getting dazed, nauseated, dominated, entangled or blinded.
I can always rely on sitting down with at least one great big beat stick of a martial character, and I find with minimal effort, by keeping him on his feet and pointed at the enemy, I contribute more than another offensive character could.
I would be super keen to have you expand on the types of things your characters do to support the party.
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Gotta say, as a PFS player, it sounds like if you sat down at a table with
I would be super keen to have you expand on the types of things your characters do to support the party.
Rather than try and remember stuff off the top of my head:
My first debuff-remover: http://paizo.com/people/GrundersnuttMy newest debuff-remover: http://paizo.com/people/Taiicho#newPost
I have others, but their stats aren't up yet.
The problem is that I have nothing to do when that barb makes his save or when the enemies are nothing but big beatsticks, which happens surprisingly often.
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Play a martial character. :-P Mix it up a bit.
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Play a martial character. :-P Mix it up a bit.
I have martial characters, I do that. It's just whenever I play a spellcaster I end up doing THIS. Just. . . . something I gravitate towards because I have been in a situation where no one can deal with it and it wrecks the party, and then the GM turns to the spellcaster (me) and says "It's your fault, you should have had X)
(And yes, this happens with multiple different GMs, it's not just one GM at fault.)
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If you have nothing to do, you are Conserving party resources. From a team standpoint, that's a good thing.
Use a ranged weapon for Aid Another. A crossbow touch attack to the shoulder giving your melee friend +2 to hit is fine for a contribution. You can always do that to help out, or you can simply stand rear guard against surprises from another angle, which in real life is a very important job.
Your builds keep your team alive. You can find ways to contribute, even if its just piddly damage, being a flanking partner, or Aid Another touch attacks. They don't have to be significant, but they all add up.
Seriously, moving into flanking with another character, and doing an Aid Another is +4 to his chances to hit. That's as awesome as any buff spell, and every Sneak Attack Rogue will love you.
You're a great team player. Don't be down on yourself.
==Aelryinth
I don't understand how you have a problem if you have scrolls.
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I don't understand how you have a problem if you have scrolls.
Scrolls are pretty terrible in the 'oh crap' moments. Someone gets paralized, so you need to (move action) pull the scroll out, (move action) get to them (standard action) cast freedom of movement. In the time someone else could have five-foot stepped and coup de graced him.
Deeper darkness: It's okay guys! I have a scroll of daylight . . . that . . . I now can't . . . read.
Breath of life: move action (pull it out) move action (get to him) oop, he's dead and the one round time limit is up.
Bad things happened! Good thing I've got this scroll of dispel magic . . . caster level five, and here we are fighting caster level 13 stuff. Looks like I need to roll a 19 or 20 to dispel his effect.
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What about a blaster? They're not optimal, but they're fun! The Blockbuster guide is still pretty relevant, even though options have expanded.
Or be a druid. When there's nothing to remove, turn into a dinosaur and rip stuff to shreds!
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And get higher CL ones if it's not PFS.
Oils/potions for daylight and such.
Maybe get multiple mnemonic vestments if you use it frequently.
Or just play an arcane caster where you can't get a lot of those debuff removers, then it's not your fault.
Consider offensive wands. Ennervate is good, as is scorching ray with better CL.
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I don't understand how you have a problem if you have scrolls.Scrolls are pretty terrible in the 'oh crap' moments. Someone gets paralized, so you need to (move action) pull the scroll out, (move action) get to them (standard action) cast freedom of movement. In the time someone else could have five-foot stepped and coup de graced him.
Deeper darkness: It's okay guys! I have a scroll of daylight . . . that . . . I now can't . . . read.
Breath of life: move action (pull it out) move action (get to him) oop, he's dead and the one round time limit is up.
Bad things happened! Good thing I've got this scroll of dispel magic . . . caster level five, and here we are fighting caster level 13 stuff. Looks like I need to roll a 19 or 20 to dispel his effect.
If you had a Prehensile Tail of some sort, you could draw Scrolls as a Swift Action from your bags, freeing up a move action to get to them. Also consider investing in Quick Runner's Shirts, which provide you the ability to do so just for those moments.
To be fair, if you're being thrown Deeper Darkness, unless something has a See in Darkness ability, even characters with Darkvision or an up-scaled Ioun Torch are screwed, and that is perhaps one of the most ruthless GM moves ever, right behind sending level 1 PCs against a CR 3 Wraith.
That being said, I'd consider learning Braille as a language by putting points into Linguistics and having your scrolls made that way, so that you don't require sight to use them. Also, remember that spells like Darkness have a Fireball radius, so your character should be smart enough to try and walk backwards out of the Darkness, and then should have enough vision to cast the spell normally.
Breath of Life isn't a particularly useful spell anyway. Half of the time it doesn't work out the way you'd want it to, and even if it does, they're still right on the chopping block.
I seriously wonder why you wouldn't take Dispel Magic, especially when that is the de facto debuff remover spell. I'm not joking; why would you not take that spell as a spell to learn?
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From what I understand, it's not that you don't feel like you're contributing, but that you would like to mix it up by "doing" instead of only "undoing".
Your fear is that if you don't do this job, nobody will, then everyone will be screwed, and somehow you get the blame.
That's not fair. Everyone should contribute to the burdens of preparedness, so that everyone also gets to have a share of the fun part of "doing unto others". You have the right to (nicely) ask other people to share.
If you're playing with a constant party, tell them that you're feeling unfulfilled and that you want them to pick up some of the load, and in return you'll also be able to provide some extra firepower. After all, sometimes hitting hard fast can stop the bad guys from inflicting lots of nasty stuff later on.
If you're playing in shifting parties (like typical PFS), try clerics. You can prepare whatever is needed that nobody else can cover, but you can ask that other people also pull their weight with the stuff they can do, so that you'll have slots for "fireworks". Clerics are really ideal for this because they can adjust to differing parties by preparing different spells.
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seriously wonder why you wouldn't take Dispel Magic, especially when that is the de facto debuff remover spell. I'm not joking; why would you not take that spell as a spell to learn?
1) Dispel magic requires caster level checks, which I can fail, especially if going up against a boss. I'd rather have Surpress Charms and compulsions and FOR SURE get rid of that confusion on the barbarian
2) Dispel magic doesn't get rid of many debuff-removers. Feeblemind, ability damage/drain, fatigue, exhaustian, being grappled by some horrible death monster that's gonna eat you.
3) I always have dispel magic available, I just also have other debuff removers anyway.
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Forgive me, but do you actually want to solve the problem? It seems like you don't, or are at least unwilling to compromise your style to do so. The reason dispel was suggested, for example, is you can use it as a general catch all, so you don't have all your resources devoted to fixing debuffs. That's what you want to do, right? I mean, its a simple matter of resource allocation. If you want to be able to do something else, you're going to have to skimp on the status fixing a little. Anything more versatile is less effective than specialization. Look at shadow evocation or conjuration. You pay a higher slot level and it takes an extra save to do full power, but it's phenomenally versatile, saving a sorcerer many spells known, or letting a wizard effectively prepare multiple spells in a single slot.
Edit - Trying to find a nicer way yo get the point across.
1) Play a prepared caster. That way you can vary your spell loadout to match your expected challenge, even subtly. Leave some spell slots open too. Not perfect, because you may not have the exact right spell available DURING combat, but that is true for the spontaneous caster as well. If your spell slots are reactive, there's always the possibility the GM throws something you can't respond to.
2) So, load up most of your spell slots with debuff removers... but make 1 or 2 spells known of each level be a buff. Something which you can activate to help you wade into the fray and smash faces. Then tailor your entire build towards being a battle cleric/oracle/shaman. Debuff removal doesn't usually care what your casting score is, so start with a 14 in it, grab a mithral breastplate, a two handed reach weapon, pump STR and CON. Grab feats like Power Attack and Combat Reflexes, and pick Mysteries/Spirits like Battle.
You will be a respectable presence on the battlefield. Casting buffs like Blessing of Fervor and Prayer help your party by boosting damage, saves, and/or AC, but they also help you. If you are still having a hard time hitting or hurting the enemy, use a turn to cast Divine Power, Divine Favor, or Righteous Might and move into a better position to full attack next turn while flanking. Or place yourself where the enemy has to risk AoOs.
Oh, and make you are using a race with a favored class bonus to increase your spells known if spontaneous. If you follow this route, you should be able to have your cake and eat it too. :D
DON'T think of your character as a caster-caster. You're a warrior-caster that uses magic to alleviate the barriers to smashing faces.
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You have most or all of the options here now. At this point it's just deciding where you want to sacrifice.
But seriously, an arcane caster is a simple way to avoid a lot if it.