Let's end the martial vs. caster debate... Arena Style!


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

51 to 100 of 288 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | next > last >>
Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

3 people marked this as a favorite.
MendedWall12 wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
MendedWall12 wrote:
My imagined arena would never end the martial caster disparity debate, nor should it!
Your thread title wrote:
Let's End the Martial vs. Caster Debate... Arena Style!
Come on Jiggy, you know that was written with tongue firmly planted in cheek. You've seen enough of my stuff to know that, haven't you?

Clearly not. I mean, you said it pretty straightforwardly. Heck, you even asked in your post if it was a good idea or not. Why would anyone interpret it as a joke?

Quote:
I know, let's settle this by you creating a character, let's say, a wizard, and I'll create a character, let's say, a fighter. They'll both be seventh level, and then we could make those characters fight in an arena!

So you're just after spectacle, eh?

Okay.

You make a Fighter7, I'll make a Wizard7.
• No multiclassing.
• CRB only (which, remember, also means no traits, so I can't even get metamagic reducers).
• Just yourself (no Leadership, no purchased critters, but also no summons).
• Standard WBL, spent as you see fit.
• Prior to the event, we're both considered to know it's coming up and can prepare as much as we want, as long as we don't interact (I can't scry on you, you can't have people spy on me, and so forth).
• We both start in "waiting rooms" where we both have three rounds to drink potions/cast buffs. We are then teleported onto the floor of a colosseum. The floor is a 100ft-diameter circle.
• When we're teleported in, we're 60 feet apart, with the center of the arena being halfway between us.
• We then roll initiative and go from there.

Sound like a plan?


MendedWall12 wrote:
Bob Bob Bob wrote:
No, this wouldn't be fun to watch.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion.

Also, you obviously failed to note the post where I said, let's have multiple level fights, not just jump right to the 20th level. If people want me to actually start a PbP recruitment thread for this and "GM" it, I'd be happy to do that. Since GMing it really just means watching two characters go at it and occasionally arbitrating rules debates. Though, if the people showed up that I hope would show up, they'd know the rules better than I would.

It's an opinion formed after seeing several of them. They're mind-numbingly dull or over in a single post (well, usually two, but only because the first post is the actual character). Lower level arena combat isn't actually any better. It's usually much worse, in fact, because characters will be missing vital equipment (whether by user error or they can't afford it yet). Fighter can't fly and only has a masterwork longbow? Better hope the wizard isn't a Strix with protection from arrows. At higher levels both of those would cease to be a problem.

Again, what are you actually bringing to this? I'm not seeing anything. The only thing you've contributed is "caster versus martial", which everyone has already told you is a forgone conclusion at level 20.

If you actually want someone to do an arena make it interesting. Do the naked level 20 Fighter versus a party of lower levels. Have people "bid" with parties and take the low bidder. Or better yet, naked level 20 Magus. I think the Magus would still be effective offensively but lose a lot defensively. Balor with 20 levels versus Solar with 20 levels. CR 10 whatever they can make versus CR 10 whatever the other person can make.


Jiggy wrote:


So you're just after spectacle, eh?

Okay.

You make a Fighter7, I'll make a Wizard7.
• No multiclassing.
• CRB only (which, remember, also means no traits, so I can't even get metamagic reducers).
• Just yourself (no Leadership, no purchased critters, but also no summons).
• Standard WBL, spent as you see fit.
• Prior to the event, we're both considered to know it's coming up and can prepare as much as we want, as long as we don't interact (I can't scry on you, you can't have people spy on me, and so forth).
• We both start in "waiting rooms" where we both have three rounds to drink potions/cast buffs. We are then teleported onto the floor of a colosseum. The floor is a 100ft-diameter circle.
• When we're teleported in, we're 60 feet apart, with the center of the arena being halfway between us.
• We then roll initiative and go from there.

Sound like a plan?

Oh man! That sounds like so much fun. Even though I'm pretty sure my character would lose (but I'd win, because I'd be having fun); I'd still be super willing to do it, just to see what happens. Can I have some time to put together my character? Say 24 hours?

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'll probably need more than 24 hours myself (job, Christmas shopping, etc), so take as long as you need.

Any candidates for GM?

EDIT: Almost forgot, hit points will be max HD at 1st level and average (rounded up) thereafter. So you get 10/6/6/6/6/6/6 and I get 6/4/4/4/4/4/4. Stats are standard 15 point buy.


deinol wrote:

Supposing someone wanted to step into the arena, what are the ground rules? How far apart do they start before rolling initiative? How big is the arena? Do they get to chug potions or cast spells beforehand?

There are a lot of details that need to be sorted out. And very few choices will help the fighter.

Edit: How can I forget, what level? ;)

It seems to depend on the arena. In Klara's arena above, the caster got to do things without even using rules mechanics, since she lives in a world where Wizards Are Gods.

More to the point though, not even in First Edition have the classes EVER been balanced on who can kill who in arena duels. It's never been a design goal to work that way, again.. that's the game we have.

The other fallacy is in expecting high level games to run the same way as low level ones do. By their nature High level games vary tremendously from table to table, especially if the DM is running his own game as opposed to an Adventure Path which channels resources and time at a fairly limited rate.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Remember Jiggy, embrace the dark side.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Wizards, as written in the rules, should have it much harder than a lot of pfsrd-surfers would have us believe. When every wizard has every spell then they are very-very good - if prepared. Otherwise if it isn't one of their two spells per level then they have to hunt for it.

“That's what's so stupid about the whole magic thing, you know. You spend twenty years learning the spell that makes nude virgins appear in your bedroom, and then you're so poisoned by quicksilver fumes and half-blind from reading old grimoires that you can't remember what happens next.”
― Terry Pratchett, The Color of Magic

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
The Sword wrote:
Wizards, as written in the rules, should have it much harder than a lot of pfsrd-surfers would have us believe. When every wizard has every spell then they are very-very good - if prepared. Otherwise if it isn't one of their two spells per level then they have to hunt for it.

This would work if mages didn't also have spells to ask the universe what was going to happen next, reading the future like a large print book. Sure, it starts off small enough, but when you're able to play 20 questions with reality, picking the right spell isn't hard.

That's even ignoring how many spells are just universally useful for most situations. Know you'll be facing humanoids (not a stretch for most people to be aware of), dominate person. Facing enemies with eyes, grab some glitterdust. Need to avoid being seen, you can turn invisible. There's tons of examples like this, as the best spells are the most all purpose (summon spells have tons of versatility and are highly regarded, same with polymorph spells and others), meaning that most people aren't preparing "defeat the tyrant ted if he rolls a 14 on his second attack roll of the day", they're preparing simulacrum to investigate a copy of tyrant ted to learn everything about him before destroying him with other omni purpose spells.

Spells are about versatility, and most of a wizard's list gives them a painful amount of versatility for the best spells, which is what makes them so powerful.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Jiggy wrote:
MendedWall12 wrote:
The idea that a lot of the martial vs. caster disparity argument is coming from an analysis of the numbers, and theory-craft, but not necessarily from actual game play experience.
Well, there's your first mistake. There have been entire threads created by those who don't believe in the disparity specifically to ask "Have people really seen this, or is it all just theory?" (and then dismiss every post in the deluge of examples as being the result of playing the game wrong rather than any issues with the ruleset).

This is more-or-less exactly correct.

To be honest, I don't expect this to resolve anything whatsoever. The only sound argument I've really heard against the disparity is that characters like Arkalion never get used, making the "disparity" really a consequence of powergaming wizards taking the system past its breaking point: The epitome of theorycrafting. This is the argument the devs stand behind. Now, I totally disagree (even the worst-built wizard still gets some meaningful narrative options), but at least that argument is worth exploring. Of course a wizard will beat a fighter. Maybe a duel at low levels could be interesting (see at what level the wizard starts beating the fighter over the head with his own sword), but otherwise this thread seems pointless.

That said, I may just be biased because of my job on these forums. Speaking of which, this thread has been added to the Martial-Caster Disparity Index, linked above. Are there any other major threads I'm missing? I've fallen behind, I know.


Jiggy wrote:

So you're just after spectacle, eh?

Okay.

You make a Fighter7, I'll make a Wizard7.
No multiclassing.
• CRB only (which, remember, also means no traits, so I can't even get metamagic reducers).
• Just yourself (no Leadership, no purchased critters, but also no summons).
• Standard WBL, spent as you see fit.
• Prior to the event, we're both considered to know it's coming up and can prepare as much as we want, as long as we don't interact (I can't scry on you, you can't have people spy on me, and so forth).
• We both start in "waiting rooms" where we both have three rounds to drink potions/cast buffs. We are then teleported onto the floor of a colosseum. The floor is a 100ft-diameter circle.
• When we're teleported in, we're 60 feet apart, with the center of the arena being halfway between us.
• We then roll initiative and go from there.

Sound like a plan?

Just curious.

Why the restriction on multiclassing?


N. Jolly wrote:
Spells are about versatility, and most of a wizard's list gives them a painful amount of versatility for the best spells, which is what makes them so powerful.

Very often I see the expectation that wizards have access to every spell on the list. Thats my point. They don't. For that to work there has to be unlimited access to spells and that isnt the case. If you are designing a 17th level wizard, great you can pick what you like, but most characters are grown not built. You are assuming that every wizard has simulacrum and 4,000 gp of rubies to burn.

Terry Pratchett wrote:

'Can’t you wizards do something?’

'Yes,’ said Ponder. 'We can do practically anything, but we can’t change people’s minds. We can’t magic them sensible. Believe me, if it were possible to do that, we would have done it a long time ago. We can stop people fighting by magic and then what do we do? We have to go on using magic to stop them fighting. We have to go on using magic to stop them being stupid. And where does all that end? So we make certain that it doesn’t begin. That’s why the university is here. That’s what we do. We have to sit around not doing things because of the hundreds of times in the past it’s been proved that once you get beyond the abracadabra, hey presto, changing-the-pigeons-into-ping-pong-balls style of magic you start getting more problems than you’ve solved. It was bad enough finding ping-pong balls nesting in the attics.

- Unseen Academicals


The Sword wrote:
N. Jolly wrote:
Spells are about versatility, and most of a wizard's list gives them a painful amount of versatility for the best spells, which is what makes them so powerful.

Very often I see the expectation that wizards have access to every spell on the list. Thats my point. They don't. For that to work there has to be unlimited access to spells and that isnt the case.

If you are designing a 17th level wizard, great you can pick what you like, but most characters are grown not built. You are assuming that every wizard has simulacrum and 4,000 gp of rubies to burn.

No we're assuming every 17th level Wizard has Simulacrum (or better yet Wish) and Blood Money. Because any half decent one will.


6 people marked this as a favorite.
The Sword wrote:
Very often I see the expectation that wizards have access to every spell on the list. Thats my point. They don't. For that to work there has to be unlimited access to spells and that isnt the case. If you are designing a 17th level wizard, great you can pick what you like, but most characters are grown not built. You are assuming that every wizard has simulacrum and 4,000 gp of rubies to burn.

You just don't understand.

Anzyr wrote:

Arkalion, Ruler of the Grand Cycle

N Half-Elf Foresight Diviner Wizard 20 (Prohibited Schools: Evocation, Enchantment)

Harbinger Daemon Body -
NE Large outsider (daemon, evil, extraplanar, fire)
Initiative: 78 (20 +10 (D1) +13 (Dex) +2 Trait +4 (II) +4 (F) +4 (HA)* +5 Insight* (AP) + 3 Luck + 1 Competence (FPGIS)
+4 (GH+C(+8 MoG))* Morale +4 Enhancement (Dueling))

Senses: Low-Light Vision, Darkvision 60 ft., scent, true seeing
Aura - Unholy Aura, Protective Aura
DR 10/evil

Defense:

AC: 63 (10 + 6 Armor + 13 Dex + 7 Shield* (MV) +5 Deflection* (SoF), +2 Luck* (US) +20 Natural +1 Insight -1 Size)
HP: 540 (24d10+408)
Fortitude: +37(39) (6 +17 Stat +4(6) Resistance +6 Morale +3 Luck +1 Competence)
Reflex: 33(35) (6 +13 Stat, +4(6) Resistance +6 Morale +3 Luck +1 Competence)
Will: 42(44) (12 +9 Stat, +4(6) Resistance + 6 Morale +3 Luck +1 Competence +2 DM +4 Insight)
Immune: Magic Sleep, Fear, ability damage, acid, blindness, critcal hits, charm and compulsion effects, deafness, death effects, disease, drowning, electricity, fire, acid, cold, petrification, poison, stunning, all spells or attacks that affect your physiology or respiration; Resist cold 30, electricity 30; SR 32
+2 v. enchantment spells and effects

Str: 44 (33 +6 Enhancement +5 Inherent)
Dex: 36 (21 +6 Enhancement +5 Inherent +4 Profane)
Con: 45 (32 +6 Enhancement +5 Inherent +2 Profane)
Int: 43 (18 +2 Race +3 Age +5 Level +6 Enhancement +5 Inherent +4 Profane)
Wis: 30 (14 +3 Age +6 Enhancement +5 Inherent +2 Profane)
Cha: 21 (7 +3 Age +6 Enhancement +5 Inherent)

BAB: +10; CMB: 27; CMD: 40

Active Spells, Greater Angelic Aspect, Magic Vestments x2 (Solars), Shield of Faith (Solar),
Unwilling Shield (linked to 1 Solar), True Seeing, Extended Aroden's Spellbane
(2 days ago, 56 hour duration), Extended Aroden's Spellbane (1 day ago, 56 Hour duration)
Spellbane spells: Antimagic Field, Aroden's Spellbane, Mage's Disjunction, Greater Dispel Magic, Mage's Magnificent Enclosure.
Extended Magic Jar (Cast 2 days ago 56 hour duration), Extended Magic Jar (cast 1 day ago 56 hour duration)
Extended Ice Body, Greater Heroism, Moment of Greatness (Efreet), Heightened Awareness, Anticipate Peril,
Extended Fickle Winds, Invisibility Purge (Solar), Death Knell (Duplicated with Limited Wish) on a failed spawn.

Speed: 30 ft. 60 Ft. Fly (Perfect)

Traits: Reactionary, Fate's Favored

Feats: Scribe Scroll (W1), Improved Initiative (1), Spell Focus (Evocation) (3), Fast Study (W5),
Craft Wondrous Item (5), Sacred Geometry (Quicken, Dazing) (7), Extend Spell (9), Quicken Spell (W10),
Spell Penetration (11), Greater Spell Penetration (13), Sacred Geometry (Persistent, Empower) (15),
Opposition Research (Evocation) (W15), Greater Spell Focus (Evocation) (17), Maximize Spell (19), Immortality (W20)

Skills: 20 Ranks in:
Acrobatics +40 / Bluff +32 / Disguise +32 / Diplomacy +32 / Escape Artist +40 Fly +40
Knowledge (Arcana), (Dungeoneering), (Engineering), (Local), (Nature), (Planes), (Religion) +43
(20 +16 Int +3 CS +3 Morale +3 Luck +1 COmpetence) / Perception +44
Sense Motive + 37 / Stealth +33 / Spellcraft +43 / Use Magic Device +32

Languages: Common, Elven, Celestial, Infernal, Abyssal, Draconic, Undercommon

Special Qualities: Dual-Minded
Permanent Spells: Arcane Sight, Tongues, Darkvision, See Invisibiliy, Read Magic, Telepathic Bond (Tzitzimitlx5)
Telepathic Bond (Solar)

Weapons: +1 Courageous, Dueling Living Steel Large Spiked Gauntlet (22,010 GP)
Staff of the Master (Necromancy) x2

Armor: +1 Deathless, Ghost Touch, Heavy Fortification Living Steel Haramaki (100,506 GP)
Clawhand Shield

Items: Headband of Mental Superiority +6, Belt Of Physical Perfection +6, Otherworldly Kimono, Handy Haversack,
Orange Prism Ioun Stone, Flawed Orange Prism Ioun Stone, Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone, Flawed Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone,
Wayfinder (Clear Spindle Ioun Stone), Iridescent Spindle Ioun Stone, Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone,
Cracked Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone, Greater Ring of Inner Fortititude, Ring of Freedom of Movement,
Lens of Figment Piercing, Quick Runner's Shirt, Necklace of Adaption, Goz Mask, Eversmoking Bottle,
Minor Cloak of Displacement, Glove of Storing, Bead of Karma x2, Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend x3, Blessed Book x2
Rod of Absorption (0/50 stored levels), Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess, Spellguard Bracers, Featherstep Slippers,
Spirit Jars, Amulet of Natural Armor, Stone of Alliance, Lantern of Revealing, Eyes of the Eagle, Bag of Holding I,
Concealing Pocket, Pearl of Power 9th x2

Greensting Scorpion Familiar. In Concealing Pocket.

Spell Component Pouch x 30
10,000 Sheets of Paper
100 Vials of Ink
100 Vials of Glowing Ink
100 GP worth of Sacks (for Rune storage)

Gold: 3,371

Spells Known (Level Up): Starting Spell Book (Up to 6th level) (Also in both Blessed Books)

1st: Anticipate Peril, Snow Ball, Ear-Piercing Scream, Blood Money, Blood Rage, Alarm, Heighten Awareness,
Infernal Healing, Ant Haul, Shield
2nd: Rope Trick, Create Pit, Summoner Monster II, Mirror Image
3rd: Haste, Summon Monster III, Tongues, Paragon Surge
4th: Summon Monster IV, Black Tentacles, Animate Dead, Eyes of the Void
5th: Teleport, Summon Monster V, Magic Jar, Permanency
6th: Planar Binding, Summon Monster VI, True Seeing, Greater Dispel Magic
7th: Greater Teleport, Summon Monster VII, Simulacrum, Limited Wish
8th: Greater Planar Binding, Summoner Monster VIII, Maze, Clone
9th: Greater Create Demiplane, Wish, Time Stop, Gate, Aroden's Spellbane, Mage's Disjunction

Spellbooks:
Book of Harms (900 GP): (Also in both Blessed Books)

3rd—fireball, lightning bolt

2nd—acid arrow, darkness, ghoul touch, gust of wind

1st—burning hands, color spray, corrosive touch, hydraulic push, hypnotism, magic missile, ray of enfeeblement,
shocking grasp

Tome of the Transmuter (2,635) (Also in both Blessed Books)

4th—beast shape II, calcific touch, confusion, dimension door, stone shape

3rd—arcane sight, dispel magic, explosive runes, lightning bolt, greater magic weapon, slow

2nd—alter self, flaming sphere, knock, pyrotechnics, resist energy, see invisibility, whispering wind

1st—animate rope, charm person, color spray, erase, floating disk, mage armor, magic missile, protection from chaos,
unseen servant

0—standard plus drench, spark

Blessed Book(s): All Above, in addition to:

1st (100 GP): Air Bubble, Identify, Grease, Obscuring Mist, Mount, Summoner Monster I, Comprehend Langauges,
Detect Secret Doors, See Alignment, True Strike, Disguise Self, Magic Aura, Silent Image,
Vanish, Crafter's Fortune, Expeditious Retreat, Gravity bow, Liberating Command, Feather Fall, Reduce Person

2nd (500 GP): Arcane Lock, Protection from Arrows, Glitterdust, Stone Call, Detect Thoughts, Locate Object,
Continual Flame, Contingent Action, Shatter, Blur, Invisibility, Command Undead, False Life, Spectral Hand,
Limp Lash, Make Wole, Masterwork Transformation, Sculpt Simulacrum, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Owl's Wisdom,
Bear's Endurance, Eagle's Splendor, Fox's Cunning, Aram Zey's Focus

3rd (1035 GP): Magic Circle Against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Nondetection, Protection from Energy, Aqueous Orb,
Mad Monkeys, Phantom Steed, Stinking Cloud, Seek Thoughts, Heroism, Wind Wall, Displacement, Deathwine,
Marionette Possession, Vampiric Touch, Beast Shape I, Blink, Fly, Monstrous Physique I, Shrink Item,
Undead Anatomy

4th (1040 GP): Dimensional Anchor, Stoneskin, Solid Fog, Scrying, Locate Creature, Charm Monster, Terrible Remorse,
Contingent Scroll, Greater Invisibility, Enervation, Symbol of Slowing, Emergency Force Sphere, Ball Lightning

5th (2125 GP): Mage's Private Sanctum, Siphon Magic, Cloudkill, Lesser Planar Binding, Contact Other Plane,
Telepathic Bond, Geyser, Symbol of Sleep, Symbol of Pain, Waves of Fatigue, Angelic Aspect, Fabricate, Fickle Winds,
Overland Flight, Planar Adaption, Absorb Toxicity, Echolocation

6th (1620 GP): Greater Heroism, Symbol of Persuasion, Chain Lightning, Contingency, Symbol of Fear, Flesh to Stone
Battlemind Link, Unwilling Shield, Sonic Form

7th (3610 GP): Spell Turning, Plane Shift, Greater Arcane Sight, Greater Scrying, Vision, Symbol of Stunning,
Waves of Ecstasy, Hungry Darkness, Project Image, Symbol of Weakness, Waves of Exhaustion, Ethereal Jaunt,
Ice Body, Circle of Clarity

8th (2880 GP): Mind Blank, Protection from Spells, Trap the Soul, Discern Location, Moment of Prescience,
Symbol of Insanity, Symbol of Death, Greater Angelic Aspect, Polymorph Any Object

9th (4860 GP): Symbol of Vulnerability, Summoner Monster IX, Teleportation Circle, Foresight, Winds of Vengeance,
Astral Projection, Energy Drain, Soul Bind, Mass Suffocation, Etherealness, Shapechange, Dominate Monster

Components & Focuses x2 (10420):
1,000 GP Diamond - Protection from Spells
1,000 GP Cold Iron SCepter - Aroden' Spellbane
500 GP Forked Metal Rod - Greater Create Demiplane
100 GP Crytal Lens - Circle of Clarity
1,500 GP Ivory Statuette of Self - Contingency
1000 GP Silver Mirror - Scrying
100 GP Platinum Quill - Contingent Scroll
10 GP Minature Shovel - Create Pit

That is a full caster played to its potential.


N. Jolly wrote:

This would work if mages didn't also have spells to ask the universe what was going to happen next, reading the future like a large print book. Sure, it starts off small enough, but when you're able to play 20 questions with reality, picking the right spell isn't hard.

That's a bit of an exaggeration. Contact Other Plane, which I assume is the spell you're referring to is very high level, and carries significant risks of either mistruth or caster insanity with each question asked. It's not really the kind of spell you cast as routine.

Commune, the arcane version, has it's own downside with the powers questioned either frequently obtuse with their answers or not answering at all.


The Sword wrote:
N. Jolly wrote:
Spells are about versatility, and most of a wizard's list gives them a painful amount of versatility for the best spells, which is what makes them so powerful.
Very often I see the expectation that wizards have access to every spell on the list. Thats my point. They don't. For that to work there has to be unlimited access to spells and that isnt the case. If you are designing a 17th level wizard, great you can pick what you like, but most characters are grown not built. You are assuming that every wizard has simulacrum and 4,000 gp of rubies to burn.

The shorthand for this argument is "Schrodinger's Wizard", and the easy counter is that far more, and greater, assumptions are made for "Schrodinger's Fighter". Foremost among them being "The problem can be solved by applying hit point damage" or "The problem can be solved with a skill that the Fighter has, and that no one else took, and that a spell can't also accomplish more quickly and reliably".


Lol, I'd not seen Arkalion...

What an extraordinary confluence of events to create that fellow. Luckliy he must be too busy beating up Elminster to worry about my little 9th level caster.

This thread is a question of whether the most powerful wizard build can beat the most powerful martial build. I'm not sure that is the problem at the heart of a Martial-Caster disparity. Anyway - I'm sure it will be very diverting.


The Sword wrote:
Very often I see the expectation that wizards have access to every spell on the list.

To be clear I am referring to the expectation that wizards have every one of the 1085 on the wizards spell list. Not that they can't access the spells in their spellbook.

Silver Crusade

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
N. Jolly wrote:

This would work if mages didn't also have spells to ask the universe what was going to happen next, reading the future like a large print book. Sure, it starts off small enough, but when you're able to play 20 questions with reality, picking the right spell isn't hard.

That's a bit of an exaggeration. Contact Other Plane, which I assume is the spell you're referring to is very high level, and carries significant risks of either mistruth or caster insanity with each question asked. It's not really the kind of spell you cast as routine.

Commune, the arcane version, has it's own downside with the powers questioned either frequently obtuse with their answers or not answering at all.

No one's saying there aren't risk, but they are still able to help divine the future, and general questions like 'will I encounter a creature tomorrow who has an innate resistance to magic?' isn't easy to twist (sure, they may encounter 1 that they don't fight, but that's presumed when asking), and the risk aren't really that high for a caster of that level.

It's an exaggeration, but not by that large an amount since being able to just find out the future is powerful, even if it isn't 100% accurate. With Commune, your GM can screw you out of it, and with contact other plane, you can take precautions towards not failing the save to make sure you get a solid answer, so it isn't really all that dangerous.

Both of these are helpful enough for knowing what you're up against, even if they're not 100% accurate, at least compared to what mundanes can do.

wrote:
The shorthand for this argument is "Schrodinger's Wizard", and the easy counter is that far more, and greater, assumptions are made for "Schrodinger's Fighter". Foremost among them being "The problem can be solved by applying hit point damage" or "The problem can be solved with a skill that the Fighter has, and that no one else took, and that a spell can't also accomplish more quickly and reliably".

The box is open, and while people want to talk about Schrodinger wizard, the truth is that most top tier wizard spells are that way because they do EVERYTHING. People always point out wizards won't have certain corner case spell, but most wizards pick big picture spells so that doesn't really matter.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
The Sword wrote:

Lol, I'd not seen Arkalion...

What an extraordinary confluence of events to create that fellow. Luckliy he must be too busy beating up Elminster to worry about my little 9th level caster.

This thread is a question of whether the most powerful wizard build can beat the most powerful martial build. I'm not sure that is the problem at the heart of a Martial-Caster disparity. Anyway - I'm sure it will be very diverting.

Arkalion dislikes the present management of the afterlife system so he is going around to Prime material planes so he can incorporate them in what he calls the "Grand Cycle". The Grand Cycle is endless loop of reincarnation governed by Arkalion himself. The main upside (in his opinion) is that by keeping souls endlessly within the cycle, it deprives the planes, outsiders (like devils and demons) and gods from gaining any power from those souls.

There is no one beneath his notice if they do not comply with or worse yet oppose the Grand Cycle.


Jiggy wrote:

I'll probably need more than 24 hours myself (job, Christmas shopping, etc), so take as long as you need.

Any candidates for GM?

EDIT: Almost forgot, hit points will be max HD at 1st level and average (rounded up) thereafter. So you get 10/6/6/6/6/6/6 and I get 6/4/4/4/4/4/4. Stats are standard 15 point buy.

Ha ha! I remembered that after I left work, and was just coming back in to ask. Thanks! Also, yeah, I realized I'll need more than 24 hours too, we're leaving town for early holiday celebrations this weekend so I'll be without books and computer starting Friday afternoon till next week. We can just keep each other apprised of progress through PMs if not in this thread.

Sweet!


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
The Sword wrote:

Wizards, as written in the rules, should have it much harder than a lot of pfsrd-surfers would have us believe. When every wizard has every spell then they are very-very good - if prepared. Otherwise if it isn't one of their two spells per level then they have to hunt for it.

You are forgetting that they can also spend all their wealth to supplement that via wands, scrolls, and staves, since besides the basic stat improvement items and defensive items all characters need, they don't have to spend nearly so much on weapons and armor.

A wizard doesn't need every spell. They just need enough spells. Most high level wizard vs fighter fights end fairly quickly when the caster flies and is invisible, and cripple's the fighter's magic items (which might counter that) with a nice disjunction.


The Sword wrote:
The Sword wrote:
Very often I see the expectation that wizards have access to every spell on the list.
To be clear I am referring to the expectation that wizards have every one of the 1085 on the wizards spell list. Not that they can't access the spells in their spellbook.

Between Scrolls, Wands, Staves, and a Wizard's Arcane Bond it's not hard to have to have most if not all things accounted for.

Limited Wish, Wish, and Summoning add even spells to access.

Pearls of Power.

Then toss in the various divination spells to help narrow down what is or isn't needed.

The Wizard won't have 100% every spell at once. But they won't need all of them at once either.

It's not hard to do in actually play.

Edit: Also Simulacrum. Because nothing says full caster like using and abusing Simulacrum.


The Sword wrote:
To be clear I am referring to the expectation that wizards have every one of the 1085 on the wizards spell list. Not that they can't access the spells in their spellbook.

Most of those 1085 aren't really worth it. Of the remainder, some aren't CL-dependent and you can get away with a wand. When it comes to preparing spells, the 2/level that you get for free -- and that you get to pick -- are enough to compile a pretty good selection of spells that you can be pretty sure are going to get used. (This again assumes that the DM is a dick, totally ignores the settlement value rules, and refuses to allow you to purchase scrolls at all -- i.e., actively fights against the rules in order to get the game to work.)

Silver Crusade

Anzyr wrote:

Arkalion dislikes the present management of the afterlife system so he is going around to Prime material planes so he can incorporate them in what he calls the "Grand Cycle". The Grand Cycle is endless loop of reincarnation governed by Arkalion himself. The main upside (in his opinion) is that by keeping souls endlessly within the cycle, it deprives the planes, outsiders (like devils and demons) and gods from gaining any power from those souls.

There is no one beneath his notice if they do not comply with or worse yet oppose the Grand Cycle.

Can I say as an even larger diversion to this conversation that this is all a rules legal character, nothing about the master of the grand cycle is outside what anyone else can do. Like none of this is 'custom items' or anything like that, Arkalion for all their power hasn't custom researched and created any spells (which would be pretty fitting for a mage of such power), or anything like that, things you'd expect of a character of this power.

Most of all, this is all PRE MYTHIC, meaning that even in paizo's realms of power, there's a higher ceiling.

Sorry Anyzr, I just conceptually love this character.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Brain in a Jar wrote:
Jiggy wrote:

So you're just after spectacle, eh?

Okay.

You make a Fighter7, I'll make a Wizard7.
No multiclassing.
• CRB only (which, remember, also means no traits, so I can't even get metamagic reducers).
• Just yourself (no Leadership, no purchased critters, but also no summons).
• Standard WBL, spent as you see fit.
• Prior to the event, we're both considered to know it's coming up and can prepare as much as we want, as long as we don't interact (I can't scry on you, you can't have people spy on me, and so forth).
• We both start in "waiting rooms" where we both have three rounds to drink potions/cast buffs. We are then teleported onto the floor of a colosseum. The floor is a 100ft-diameter circle.
• When we're teleported in, we're 60 feet apart, with the center of the arena being halfway between us.
• We then roll initiative and go from there.

Sound like a plan?

Just curious.

Why the restriction on multiclassing?

So neither of us does something like dipping cleric for certain wands or whatever. Plus, the idea is supposed to be "fighter vs wizard" rather than "dude with at least some fighter levels vs dude with at least some wizard levels".


Spending all your money on disposable items is not how you get on the property ladder - even if you can find them all for sale.

Lirth Gersen wrote:
(This again assumes that the DM is a dick, totally ignores the settlement value rules, and refuses to allow you to purchase scrolls at all -- i.e., actively fights against the rules in order to get the game to work.)

You're assuming that every small city has 813 spell scrolls (75% of the total) ranging from 1st to 9th level, despite these being one use items and the settlment (if not the world) not containing a caster even close to that level required to scribe the scroll - and by refusing this the DM is being unreasonable?

CRB wrote:

Most major cities have at least one or two purveyors of magic items, from a simple potion merchant to a weapon smith who specialises in swords, Of course, not every item in this book is available in every town.

The following guidelines are presented to help GMs determine what items are available in a given community.
(emphasis mine)

These are guidelines for dms not "settlement values rules" for players to abuse. Unlimited, unrestrained magic supermarket is not Core Pathfinder. The assumption that it is only exacerbates the divide.


The Sword wrote:
You're assuming that every small city has 813 spell scrolls (75% of the total) ranging from 1st to 9th level, despite these being one use items and the settlment (if not the world) not containing a caster even close to that level required to scribe the scroll - and by refusing this the DM is being unreasonable?

Why are we confined to one settlement?

And why do we need 813 scrolls in every small city?
I have no idea what you're even talking about.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

1 person marked this as a favorite.
The Sword wrote:
You're assuming that every small city has 813 spell scrolls (75% of the total) ranging from 1st to 9th level, despite these being one use items and the settlment (if not the world) not containing a caster even close to that level required to scribe the scroll - and by refusing this the DM is being unreasonable?

You're assuming ridiculous things about what other people are assuming.

Nobody's looking for hundreds of spells. The 2/level that you get to pick plus just a small handful of 1st-3rd-level scrolls are all that's really needed for the wizard to be nuts.

Your idea of people assuming they've got all the spells and can buy 9th-level scrolls is so far removed from reality that you're clearly not actually paying attention to people's complaints about the C/MD.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
The Sword wrote:

Spending all your money on disposable items is not how you get on the property ladder - even if you can find them all for sale.

Lirth Gersen wrote:
(This again assumes that the DM is a dick, totally ignores the settlement value rules, and refuses to allow you to purchase scrolls at all -- i.e., actively fights against the rules in order to get the game to work.)

You're assuming that every small city has 813 spell scrolls (75% of the total) ranging from 1st to 9th level, despite these being one use items and the settlment (if not the world) not containing a caster even close to that level required to scribe the scroll - and by refusing this the DM is being unreasonable?

CRB wrote:

Most major cities have at least one or two purveyors of magic items, from a simple potion merchant to a weapon smith who specialises in swords, Of course, not every item in this book is available in every town.

The following guidelines are presented to help GMs determine what items are available in a given community.
(emphasis mine)

These are guidelines for dms not "settlement values rules" for players to abuse. Unlimited, unrestrained magic supermarket is not Core Pathfinder. The assumption that it is only exacerbates the divide.

They give city statblocks in APs for a reason. But no, we don't expect every small town to have all the scrolls. At a certain point we start using greater teleport to go shopping in the biggest city around. Or planeshift + greater teleport to go shopping in major planar metropolises.

I can't remember the last time I had a campaign that didn't follow the city statblock rules by the book. On the other hand, we also tend to have our mage craft a lot of custom gear. I certainly didn't find my +4 Holy, Evil Outsider Bane, Dory of the Gargoyle or my +4 acid, cold, electricity, and fire resist Mithral Tower Shield in a shop or on a monster.

Ok, actually I think I found the base items, but they've been improved over time.

On the other hand, I know the sorcerer in my group could teleport circles around my phalanx soldier.


The Sword wrote:

Spending all your money on disposable items is not how you get on the property ladder - even if you can find them all for sale.

Lirth Gersen wrote:
(This again assumes that the DM is a dick, totally ignores the settlement value rules, and refuses to allow you to purchase scrolls at all -- i.e., actively fights against the rules in order to get the game to work.)

You're assuming that every small city has 813 spell scrolls (75% of the total) ranging from 1st to 9th level, despite these being one use items and the settlment (if not the world) not containing a caster even close to that level required to scribe the scroll - and by refusing this the DM is being unreasonable?

CRB wrote:

Most major cities have at least one or two purveyors of magic items, from a simple potion merchant to a weapon smith who specialises in swords, Of course, not every item in this book is available in every town.

The following guidelines are presented to help GMs determine what items are available in a given community.
(emphasis mine)

These are guidelines for dms not "settlement values rules" for players to abuse. Unlimited, unrestrained magic supermarket is not Core Pathfinder. The assumption that it is only exacerbates the divide.

Whatever you decide the Wizard's chances of having the solution are, they are far higher than the Fighter's.


The Sword wrote:
These are guidelines for dms not "settlement values rules" for players to abuse.

Read: "These are guidelines for DMs to ignore as they continue to work against the written rules just to get the game to function at all."


The Sword wrote:

The following guidelines are presented to help GMs determine what items are available in a given community.

(emphasis mine)
These are guidelines for dms not "settlement values rules" for players to abuse. Unlimited, unrestrained magic supermarket is not Core Pathfinder. The assumption that it is only exacerbates the divide.

When you can travel the world as fast as a wizard who can summon or gate things in that can travel the world as fast as a wizard. You can find anything you want by brute force pretty easily. If you're a wizard, and it's in a city in the world, you can find it.

Plus the wizard can more easily do crafting than a fighter.


I'll play in the tournament because I want to see what will happen. And to those of you who say it is pointless because casters win: think of it as an opportunity to prove yourselves right and watch epic combat. Or, you never know, you could be wrong.

Fair rules would be (Open to debate of course):
1. There would be several tournaments of different levels and party sizes for proper results.

2. The Caster Team would only be allowed to pick from classes that have full 9 level casting and prestige classes that boost casting.

3. The Melee Team must only choose from classes (or archetypes) that do not provide any spell casting. If a class like paladin grants spell casting at 4th, then you may take up to 3 levels of it. Prestige classes you qualify for may be taken freely.

4. Full WBL for both teams. Assume you can buy any item in any book, but no crafting "special" items.

5. The arena should be a circle with a 200 foot radius. Each team starts at opposite ends.

6. Neither team will see it's opponents character sheets before battle.

7. A neutral bystander/judge will be on hand to arbitrate disputes and monitor character sheets.

8. You win when everyone on your opponents team is dead, or outside the arena by choice. If you do end up outside the arena, you have one turn to get back inside it.

9. The arenas walls are considered to be indestructible.

10. Another plane counts as outside the arena.


If these are seen as hardline rules as some people are claiming (Kirth Gersen) and not the guidelines for DMs they are specifically describe as in the core rulebook then the following applies:

If in a settlement there is a 75% chance of finding an item below the base value then small cities contain (or have fast access to) ...

- 75% of all spells on scrolls
- 75% of all spells capable of being stored in potions
- 75% of all 1st or 2nd level spells in wand form
- 75% of the other few hundred magic items 4,000 GP or less.

Clearly the situation is preposterous. Which is fine because these are guidelines for DM selection not hard lines for the pathfinder games.

The point Jiggy is that two spells per level are your choice and after that the DM decides according to the core rulebook. If you want to use one of your four 7th level spells for simulacrum then fine - but there is an opportunity cost to chat that choice.


Once did this with someone who didn't believe that wizards were better at combat than fighters (they thought that wizards were only better at everything except combat). Level 15 single class wizard vs. level 15 single class fighter. My first action was using Truenaming to call in a Planetar angel that he could not defeat (17 HD, Full BAB, 16th level cleric, SLA's, dr he couldn't bypass, regeneration that the fighter couldn't bypass, faster flight), and then I just left the area.


The Sword wrote:

Lol, I'd not seen Arkalion...

What an extraordinary confluence of events to create that fellow. Luckliy he must be too busy beating up Elminster to worry about my little 9th level caster.

It's pretty easy to get a character like Arkalion. You just need to be your own GM.

When you throw in his motivation and plans, his Neutral alignment becomes a bad joke. He's a comic book supervillain, and a badly written one at that.


It is actually possible to create Arkalion according to the game rules. It is not necessary to cheat, as you seem to be implying, to build the character. Now, common house rules and gentleman agreements mean that characters like Arkalion don't normally show up in the game, but again that is like saying Rule 0 absolves Paizo of any responsibility to write worthwhile or balanced material for their game.


A lot of the stuff may be allowable in a strictly RAW manner, but there's a ton of stuff that is RAW-legal that any GM who is even halfway competent isn't going to allow.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

You can't teleport somewhere if you don't know where you are going. You can't scry someone unless you have at least heard of them - plus they get a save. If every wizard you run spent his youth as an urchin on the streets of Waterdeep then good for you. Most haven't.

So many of the discussions about wizard are undertaken in a vacuum. I get that, you need to have controlled environments to test or compare anything. However a game world is not a vacuum. Just look at some of the adventure paths. There are built-in limitations that get forgotten or ignored because they are a pain to track/wing on the fly. Please don't act as if the limitations aren't there in the core rules. Yes crafting exists but there is still a requirement for the appropriate materials, equipment, time and suitable environment.

There was a recent post about what is great about pathfinder... Poster after poster mentioned the choice available the hundreds of options available. Time and time again I see the same people on here write about the same combinations as if that was all people ever play.

There are some people who play pathfinder and will read an optimisation guide and select the best options from the guide. Then there is everyone else. Every class has Race + Class + Archetype + feats + equipment is 'the most powerful Xxx" combinations. So why aren't these the only options people play?

Arkelion sounds cool. It sounds like a character the creator had an absolute ball playing. If other people play Arkelion clones because they read it in a thread then I feel very sorry for them, they should find the joy in their own characters. There are thousands of spells to chose from. In 25 years of roleplaying I have never once fought other PCs in an arena. Live outside the box and pick something other than simulacrum - I've never needed the damn spell.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Norman Osborne wrote:
A lot of the stuff may be allowable in a strictly RAW manner, but there's a ton of stuff that is RAW-legal that any GM who is even halfway competent isn't going to allow.

Okay, then that is saying that there is lots of material in the game which will trip up any new GM and thus newer players/GMs should either find another game or expect to have lots of problems until they have stepped on all the landmines.


If you want to play Thyanthraxus and magic jar your way around the brains of intelligent creatures then you can do that. But slavery is generally considered an evil act and core rules certainly do not advise evil characters.

The rule for True name summoning come built in with limitations to prevent their abuse by trigger happy God-Wizards. As described in the text the planetars superiors are well within their rights to destroy you for contaminating their holy servant in this way.

Another Pratchett quote I liked was effectively "summoning creatures to gain power is like bludgeoning mice to death with a rattlesnake"


1 person marked this as a favorite.

A "real" wizard can approach Arkelion far more closely than a "real" fighter can approach a similarly optimized level 20 fighter.

For example, yes, limitations on crafting exist. They are much, much harsher for non-casters. Whether through crafting or purchase, it is far easier to get the exact magic item you want as a Wizard than as a Fighter.

Again, Teleport doesn't work 100% of the time, but it works 0% of the time for someone who doesn't have it. The Wizard might even be limited to just his two free spells per level, but the Fighter is limited to zero spells per level. His choice of class is, in itself, an opportunity cost and one with a poor ROI.


As others have said, once teleport is a thing (so 9th level), it isn't that difficult to teleport to Absalom (or a metropolis of your choice) and visit a wizard college to fill up on all your extra spellbook needs. Apart from that, evil wizards are quite common in paizo APs and scrolls are frequently used as loot.

As for Arkalion, he has a 20% or so chance of becoming a normal wizard after a Disjunction (which honestly only is a slight improvement). Mind Blank + Invisibility has a fair chance of keeping your location well enough hidden for you to cook up a plot to make that stick (I suggest wishing in an army of gated Pleroma Aeons or alternatively Simulacrum of those if gating them is inconvenient, 21 simulacrum have a 90% or so chance of dropping his spellbane and thus ALL the buffs).

If you want, you may play around with this typical 10th level Wizard who is much more interested in adventuring with her friends than fighting 1v1 duels. She has +25% Wealth but Scribe Scroll and Craft Wondrous Item should cover that. In a typical in game setting, the idea is to just tag along with the group and solve the problems they ask you to solve (and not any other, BMX Bandit should feel free to show off with his awesome BMX skills as long as he is convinced his plan will work). Spell Slots marked with ? are left open so that Lirya can fill them with 1 minute of study when she needs something specific or after a combat to fill up on spells that seem useful.

Lirya:

-------------------
Lirya
-------------------
Female Human Wizard [Foresight] 10
NG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +10; Perception +11
-------------------
Defense
-------------------
AC 16, Touch 12, Flat-Footed 14 (+1 Dex, +4 Armor, +1 Luck)
Hp 77/77 (10d6+40)
Fort +9, Ref +7, Will +11
May always act in surprise rounds.
-------------------
Offense
-------------------
Speed 30 ft.

Prescience (11; 11/day; Roll a d20, use the result in place of any d20 roll you make before the start of your next turn.)

Foretell (10/10 rounds per day; 30 ft. radius; +/- 2 Luck to ability checks, attack rolls, caster level checks, saving throws, and skill checks.)

Spells Prepared (CL 10th; +14 vs. SR - Concentration +18)
Bonded Ring (1; 1/day; Cast any spell from spellbook)
5th- Phantasmal Web (DC 23), Overland Flight, ?, Telepathic Link
4th- Emergency Force Sphere, Greater Invisibility, Telekinetic Charge, ?, ?, Scrying
3rd- Fireball, Fly, Haste, ?, ?, Arcane Sight
2nd- Glitterdust (DC 20), Flaming Sphere (DC 20), Invisibility, Mirror Image, ?, ?, See Invisibility
1st- Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Enlarge Person, Liberating Command, ?, ?, Heightened Awareness
0 - Detect Magic, Prestidigitation, Read Magic, ?
-------------------
Statistics
-------------------
Str 7 Dex 12 Con 16 Int 26 Wis 12 Cha 8
Base Atk +5; CMB +3; CMD 15
Feats: Spell Penetration, Scribe Scroll, Improved Initiative, Reach Spell, Craft Wonderous Item, Persistent Spell, Greater Spell Penetration
Wizard Discoveries: Fast Study, Opposition Research [Necromancy]
Skills: Appraise [1] +12, Craft (Armor, Carpentry, Clothing, Jewelry, Stonemasonry, Traps, Weapons)[1] +12, Escape Artist [10] +11, Fly [10] +14, Knowledge (Arcane, Planes, Religion)[10] +21, Knowledge (Nature)[3] +14, Knowledge (Dungeoneering, Local)[2] +13, Linguistics [1] +12, Perception [10] +11, Knowledge (Engineering, Geography, History, Nobility)[1] +12 Spellcraft [10] +21, Stealth [10] +11, Use Magic Device [10] +9
-------------------
Equipment
-------------------
+3 Cloak of Resistance
+4 Headband of Vast Intelligence [Fly, Use Magic Device]
+2 Belt of Mighty Constitution
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier
Lesser Rod of Dazing Spell
Lesser Rod of Extend Spell
Ring of Sustenance
Handy Haversack
Wand of Cure Light Wounds (50/50 charges)

Scrolls worth 8 750 gp
Teleport

Dimensional Anchor
Greater Invisibility

Dispel Magic
Communal Resist Energy
Sleet Storm
Tongues
Heroism
Tiny Hut
Wind Wall
Invisibility Sphere
Fly
Shrink Item
Water Breathing

Communal Protection from Evil
Protection from Arrows
Fog Cloud
Glitterdust
Invisibility x2
Mirror Image x3
Darkvision
Knock
Levitate

Alarm
Endure Elements
Shield
Grease
Mount
Unseen Servant
Comprehend Languages
Magic Missile
Ant Haul
Crafter's Fortune
Enlarge Person
Monkey Fish

Silver Mirror (1 000 gp)
Diamond Dust (200 gp)

280 gp in Spell Component Pouches and mundane gear.
-------------------
Spellbook 80/100 pages; 4 500 gp
-------------------
5th- Break Enchantment, Contact Other Plane, Telepathic Link, Teleport, Wall of Stone, Dominate Person, Feeblemind, Icy Priosn, Sending, Mirage Arcana, Phantasmal Web, Animal Growth, Fabricate, Fickle Winds, Overland Flight, Permanency
-------------------
Spellbook 68/100 pages; 3 120 gp
-------------------
4th- Dimensional Anchor, Remove Curse, Dimensional Door, Phantom Chariot, Summon Monster IV, Arcane Eye, Detect Scrying, Named Bullet, Scrying, Charm Monster, Confusion, Emergency Force Sphere, Ice Storm, Resilient Sphere, Telekinetic Charge, Greater Invisibility, Stone Shape
-------------------
Spellbook 93/100 pages; 3 780 gp
-------------------
3rd- Dispel Magic, Magic Circle Against Alignment', Communal Resist Energy, Nondetection, Aqueous Orb, Phantom Steed, Sleet Storm, Stinking Cloud, Spiked Pit, Arcane Sight, Aura Sight, Seek Thoughts, Tongues, Heroism, Suggestion, Blacklight, Contigent Action, Fireball, Tiny Hut, Wind Wall, Invisibility Sphere, Major Image, Communal Darkvision, Fly, Haste, Greater Magic Weapon, Shrink Item, Slow, Water Breathing
-------------------
Spellbook 100/100 pages; 1 620 gp
-------------------
2nd- Communal Endure Elements, Communal Protection from Alignment, Protection from Arrows, Resist Energy, Create Pit, Fog Cloud, Glitterdust, Stone Call, Web, Detect Thoughts, See Invisibility, Bestow Insight, Opressive Boredom, Burning Gaze, Flaming Sphere, Blur, Invisibility, Mirror Image, Darkvision, Knock, Levitate, Pyrotechnics, Rope Trick
1st- Alarm, Endure Elements, Protection from Alignment, Shield, Grease, Mage Armor, Mount, Unseen Servant, Comprehend Languages, Heightened Awareness, Identify, True Strike, Charm Person, Ear Piercing Scream, Magic Missile, Color Spray, Disguise Self, Silent Image, Vanish, Ant Haul, Crafter's Fortune, Enlarge Person, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Liberating Command, Magic Weapon, Monkey Fish
0 - Resistance, Acid Splash, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Read Magic, Daze, Dancing Lights, Flare, Light, Ray of Frost, Spark, Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Open/Close, Arcane Mark, Prestidigitation
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------
-------------------
Tactics 101
-------------------
Lirya casts Overland Flight and Mage Armor at the beginning of each day. During downtime she uses Heroism + Contact Other Plane (demigod) to learn answers for useful questions. She crafts during typical rests as she has lots of free time each day due to her ring of sustenance.

If she expects that combat might happen, she buffs up with Heightened Awareness, and if combat seems imminent then she will cast either Greater Invisibility or Mirror Image.

In combat, she will usually rely on Flight + Mirror Images/Invisibility to keep her safe. If archers happen, then Fickle Winds is a good defense, and Emergency Force Sphere is always there for emergencies. If there is a major threat (or she can't rely on allies to deal with the enemy), then Dazing Flaming Sphere is a good cast against single targets while Dazing Fireball is good against multiple targets. Phantasmal Web is both hilarious and effective if friendly fire is a problem. If she knows she is going up against Giants, Humanoid Fighters, or other persons with bad Will Save, then Dominate Person is a classic, while against other arcane casters Feeblemind tends to be surprisingly effective.


... And yet people still play fighters... It is almost as if people were looking for something else.

[edit]

Silver Crusade

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Norman Osborne wrote:
A lot of the stuff may be allowable in a strictly RAW manner, but there's a ton of stuff that is RAW-legal that any GM who is even halfway competent isn't going to allow.

Funny, didn't know you were the arbiter of everything that a halfway competent GM would allow.

Arkelion is the top end of the optimization spectrum, or what back at the GITP optimization boards would be considered "TO", or "theoretical optimization." TO characters don't exist to be played, they're just a fun experiment in the limits of the system. Pun-pun or the omnificer are both TO characters, there's no reason for them to be played, but they're cool for those of us who like seeing the mechanics work together in interesting ways.

The Sword wrote:

There are some people who play pathfinder and will read an optimisation guide and select the best options from the guide. Then there is everyone else. Every class has Race + Class + Archetype + feats + equipment is 'the most powerful Xxx" combinations. So why aren't these the only options people play?

Arkelion sounds cool. It sounds like a character the creator had an absolute ball playing. If other people play Arkelion clones because they read it in a thread then I feel very sorry for them, they should find the joy in their own characters. There are thousands of spells to chose from. In 25 years of roleplaying I have never once fought other PCs in an arena. Live outside the box and pick something other than simulacrum - I've never needed the damn spell.

I wonder how often you've actually looked at an up to date optimization guide, as speaking as an authority on them (google my name), I can clearly state that my guides don't have a 'best combination', even if there are certain options that stand above others. Generally it's less of a "One True Build" and more of a "these options will help 99% of characters", although to be fair, PF had those LONG before I started guide writing.

Hell, check any ranged build past 5th level and tell me if you don't generally see point-blank shot and precise shot. TWF builds always take two weapon fighting, and 90% of THF builds take power attack. Sorry these people aren't "breaking the mold", but there's just some options that work better for certain ideas, they're pretty universal when needed to complete a character concept.

Optimization guides (at least mine) are made for the purpose of helping someone reach their design goals, whatever those may be. If that design goal is to be impossibly strong, pick all the highest options you can. If that design goal is to instead have an interesting and suboptimal character that needs more powerful options to overcome their base mechanical shortcomings, ace. Hell, if someone wants to say "I'll make a character out of all the worst options!", an optimization guide can help with that as well, since we do all the work of pointing out things that may not be valuable. We also note when an option that seems good isn't, helping people avoid having to rebuild characters for failing to meet their design goals.

I'll agree that taking templated characters like the above is generally a poor idea (although I dislike it because I prefer people understand the mechanics of their own character rather than snagging something that they may not understand.) It's actually why I loathe including sample builds in my guides, I like for people to take all the pieces and make their own character instead of just using a template. But in the same way you're trying to tell people to 'live outside the box', the box itself is as valid a playstyle as your own, really no reason to get annoyed at people for enjoying their box.


The Sword wrote:
But slavery is generally considered an evil act and core rules certainly do not advise evil characters.

Who cares? No reason to not play evil as long as it doesn't disrupt the group.

Quote:
The rule for True name summoning come built in with limitations to prevent their abuse by trigger happy God-Wizards.

I don't think telling to to attack this neutral one guy who is in battle with me will be enough to get the Angel to go out of his way to try a kill me on his own time.

Quote:

... And yet people still play fighters... It is almost as if people were looking for something else.

Strangely I've never seen someone play a fighter before. Whenever I've seen someone play a martial it's been more barbarian, monk, slayer, PoW or my homebrew.

Still, I think if this arena was meant to be accurate, it should be highest tier vs. lowest tier. Wizard vs. Commoner.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
The Sword wrote:

... And yet people still play fighters... It is almost as if people were looking for something else.

[edit]

And that's not what was being argued.


To be clear N. Jolly I have read several of your guides and found them very interesting. Pathfinder is a complex game with so many options it is hard to see the wood for the trees and your guides allow some form of decision making in what would be otherwise be an at least partly random process to a newcomer.

Let's not pretend though that some people don't cherry pick the most powerful combinations and ignore the flavour. They seek what they see as the best choices and use guides to find those choices. It is a bit like school league tables, skewing the system.

I think suboptimal is a very dangerous word because optimal does not just mean best it also means favourite. While we could debate 'best' till we are blue in the face 'favourite' is entirely down to personal preference. The very phrase suboptimal suggests there is a right way to play and a less than right way to play.

In my opinion your guides are great and useful because they lay out the pros and cons of the options not because I'm looking for someone to tell me what to take or not take.

Scarab Sages

Let's just not HAVE the "caster VS martial debate," - arena-style, town hall-style, potlatch-style, Indian-style, crane-style, doggie-style, or Nacho Cheesier-style. I know I've gotten caught up in it myself sometimes, but my real stance is simply that this just should never have been considered an issue worth arguing/complaining about in the first place. So what? This all seems like, at most, a cure that's worse than the disease.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

There really is no "debate" about the caster martial disparity. Casters have the narrative advantage later in the game. I have never heard anyone imply otherwise.

You can debate how it affects the game, what to do about it, etc., but it's existence is not really a subject of controversy.

51 to 100 of 288 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / General Discussion / Let's end the martial vs. caster debate... Arena Style! All Messageboards