Other things that can help:
- summon monster with things that increase CL or duration
- obscuring mist to impair the goblins as well
- mount: Horses have scent
- knowing they have no dark-vision they could have taken blind-fight to compensate.veteran players should come up with more than scream with rage.
This seems like a good start to a "Creative Solutions" thread.
- Purchase a few gallons of oil. Use oil as grenades into unexplored rooms. Take note of surroundings with the resultant light.
- Purchase a Constrictor Snake. Take a 20 to push it to guard a room.
The spell text, unfortunately!
What's stopping him from preparing several dozen light pebbles every hour or two and tossing them in various squares ahead of him?Oh, buggers, didn't read that far down.
Torches, then. Some of the high-strength guys can carry an awful lot of them, and they're cheap.
Though I still like the idea of rolling a light stone through a room and preparing archery to shoot at what becomes visible.
At a pound a piece, you might need to buy a cart for all those torches...
You've also limited yourself to an hour exploring tops unless you don't mind not seeing where your exit is...
Or just rent 100 torch bearers for 10 gp +1 gp per hr torch cost. Just have the hirelings fill up the place so it's all lit up then move around as you please! Just don't trip over them! ;)
PCs are supposed to be ready for whatever is thrown at them. If they did not plan on a DUNGEON being DARK...are they really veterans?! It's not the Emerald Spire that is stupid...
My sons handled this just fine.
Emerald Spire is so worth the price. All new surprises each level! Great stuff.
If they did not plan on a DUNGEON being DARK...are they really veterans?!
There is a difference between darkness and supernatural un-dispellable 1st level darkness. Enemies with 2 working brain cells should collect all the rogues near the entrance and sneak attack the group to death before they can figure out there where enemies in the darkness. The adventure is "stupid" because it assumes the bad guys are idiots...
If they did not plan on a DUNGEON being DARK...are they really veterans?!There is a difference between darkness and supernatural un-dispellable 1st level darkness. Enemies with 2 working brain cells should collect all the rogues near the entrance and sneak attack the group to death before they can figure out there where enemies in the darkness. The adventure is "stupid" because it assumes the bad guys are idiots...
Ummm...they are goblins. Not the brightest dudes around by a long shot. The adventure is the way it is written. Deal with it or don't play.
Ummm...they are goblins. Not the brightest dudes around by a long shot. The adventure is the way it is written. Deal with it or don't play.If they did not plan on a DUNGEON being DARK...are they really veterans?!There is a difference between darkness and supernatural un-dispellable 1st level darkness. Enemies with 2 working brain cells should collect all the rogues near the entrance and sneak attack the group to death before they can figure out there where enemies in the darkness. The adventure is "stupid" because it assumes the bad guys are idiots...
You miss the point. I'd expect "veterans" to NOT assume the bad guys are morons. That gets people killed. It's the novice party that just rushes in with torches and doesn't expect ranged sneak attacks to come flying.
And if you missed the OP, the party did JUST that. They didn't "Deal with it" and didn't play. I don't find their doing so wrong or bad: it was the smart thing to do.
On goblins: it doesn't take much brains to figure out blind people are easy to sneak attack. Animals could figure it out and goblins are slightly smarter than the average trained monkey.
And all that is why I'd say the adventure is "stupid". Not only does it assume the bad guys are dumb but the players would have to be just as dumb for assuming anything living in the place can't figure out the advantages of darkness...
Darkvision on PC's isnt common enough for this to be your fault. The players just gotta man up, spam some torches or find another way in.
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Interestingly enough, I think all the different viewpoints here are mostly correct:
1. Most races don't have darkvision, so even if a GM allows every race, there is no reason to expect every PC has darkvision. Quite the opposite. My unrestricted group has 5 PCs and only one of them chose a race with darkvision. Four of them would be blind in this adventure, just like the OP's group.
2. PCs who say "Dang, sure is dark in here. We're probably going to die. We should leave." are just being smart. If they can't find a reasonable way at the moment to handle it, then going in blind (literally in this case) is suicidal.
3. PCs should be prepared. Veteran players should know this. But there are limits to the preparedness of level 1 PCs - they don't have thousands of GP to hire torchbearers or to bring a wagonload of torches or sunrods or whatever. Nevertheless, it seems that having a few torches in hand, or Light cantrips (one per caster), or other means of providing a small amount of light should help considerably, at least with exploration and melee.
4. Goblins are smart. They should take advantage of their vision. Use ranged attacks. Stay out of the light of any PC with a light source. Kill dwarves and half orc and anyone else that seems to be able to see them in the darkness first, then when the guys who can see are dead, pick off the blind ones easily.
5. Writing a module where the goblins are, for some reason, too clueless to do this is a bit weak. Sometimes authors (and GMs) forget that monsters want to live just as much as PCs do. Goblins are not just fodder for low level PCs to get some early-game XP. They should fight back. Hard. Like their own lives matter. They should use their abilities (darkvision) and their wits to maximize their advantage because they ARE smart enough. Writing it or GMing it any other way is basically cheating and coddling the players. Maybe some players need coddling (new players, for example), but these are veteran players so they deserve veteran challenges.
6. Even if the GM is playing that all these goblins are half-wits who were expelled from other goblin tribes for being too stupid and making the goblin race look bad, there is really no way the PCs are going to know that so the PCs should behave like they're being faced by dangerous goblins fighting to survive to the best of their ability - which means retreating if the PCs don't feel well-equipped to handle it.
7. None of which is based on the OP's curious race restrictions so no he didn't hamstring his group.
If the goblins have any casters they can also have create water/drench cantrips prepared and ready them to put out any torches to maximize blindness. Really only magic means of light should be of any use if the goblins are the least bit smart. I'd expect creatures that live in continual darkness to focus on tactics that maximize the environment. Sneak attack classes should be popular along with anti-torch/light spells.
Overall I agree with all DM_Blake's points, 5&6 in particular.
If you've never met an average Texan highschool student or a McDonald's night shift window worker, then I bet you're sarcastic. However, I personally hear seriousness.
Ummm...they are goblins. Not the brightest dudes around by a long shot. The adventure is the way it is written. Deal with it or don't play.
Goblins have the same average intelligence as people.
Guess we're not "the brightest dudes around by a long shot" either.
If the average person can comprehend basic instructions and follow them, so can a goblin.
The goblin just won't read them.
Out of interest: Have those complaining about poor goblin tactics and the danger of the darkness actually had a read/play through the part in question? It's really not a big deal at all.
a) The Goblins keep several lookouts on the front entrance and do actually ambush the players if they are spotted going in that way, including raising a general alarm. Players are partly warned by the fact they are being peppered by arrows from the moment they are spotted. The goblins do not stand around doing nothing until attacked, and the party should absolutely be afraid of entering the conventional way if they can't be stealthy, light or no, and should expect a tough fight if they do. Talk of rogue levels is a bit superfluous: barely any of the goblins have PC class levels to begin with so sneak attack just isn't an option for them.
b) The ruins are reasonably small with tight, bending corridors. 5ft radius light from a torch or light is enough to fully illuminate most corridors and dancing lights will illuminate an entire room at a time. You could actually illuminate the entire floor with about 50 torches and totally remove the threat. At 1 CP each you could entirely defeat the danger of this floor for half a GP without magic. If the single cleric in the ruins wastes his actions using create water to put torches out --- good! He is one of only two real threats on the floor anyway.
c) The boss is working on his automaton when the players arrive and so has a perfectly reasonable excuse to not join the fray immediately even if the alarm is raised: he wants to quickly finish clanky and then test it on the party. The other goblins are expendable tar pits.
d) The darkness is actually factored into the CR of the encounters: without it the encounters are exceptionally easy even for a 1st level dungeon. The players are also free to retreat at any time.
Of all the levels/adventures that suffer from unconnected-monster-per-room, this one is not an offender.
Blakmane:
a: The players can't assume "barely any of the goblins have PC class levels to begin with so sneak attack just isn't an option for them." Smart players would expect and plan for sneak attacks, not assume that none exist.
b: Unless maps are laying around, players have no reason to know this. Secondly, that cleric can keep the normal foes buffed by knocking out torches. Do you think the bard is wasting his time with a bard song that doesn't give a bonus nearly as big as blindness?
c: Well played goblins should be enough of a threat without the boss. They have a way to attack with the target blinded or at worst unable to see them.
–2 penalty to Armor Class and losing Dexterity bonus to players AC means the goblins should hit easily. Total concealment (50% miss chance) and any kind of cover ups their survivability greatly. They can also stay out of range as the party is at 1/2 speed unless that can make a DC 10 acrobatics (with a -4).
d: Retreating was the whole point of the thread. It was the best option given the situation. The players just can't assume they can run into the darkness and be able to easily "retreat at any time": In fact, they'd most likely assume it's isn't very easy to navigate in complete darkness.
I remember playing a game of shadowrun were we had to storm a subterranean bunker flooded with argon gas (not breathable) and had not brought scuba gear or oxygen tanks. The bunker was defended by a KI and the drones it controlled so they did not need oxygen.
We talked it over, improvised and sent the toughest/most combat capable guy we had down supported by spells and an improvised air supply to take out the main server containing the KI. It was rough, the lone guy nearly bought it but we succeeded. And now it is the story that's most often told when speaking of memorable RP moments.
Going in blind would have been easy in comparison.
TL;DR: You can look at it as unfair treatment or you can see it as a chance to show your wits and toughness and take the challenge.
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graystone:
a. Good adventure design says that a goblin with class levels for a level 1 adventure should be rare, not the norm.
b. Since the PCs can completely circle around the Spire before going in, they should have a fairly good idea of the actual area covered by the Spire ground level, so have an idea of how much they need in the way of light sources to completely cover it if it were just an empty space.
c: They can be, but if the p-arty can avoid raising an alarm, which is the "smart" way to play, it becomes much easier. The adventure includes what changes if an alarm is raised, and, yes, it does make it harder.
Remember that if the party has a light source, they are not blind. They are NOT blind. They are not BLIND.
d: It sounded more like the players ragequit, rather than just retreated and regrouped.
Again, it is not complete darkness unless you don't have a light source. If you don't have darkvision, you are a fool to not have a light source of some sort.
The special rules of the dungeon make normal light sources weaker, not immaterial.
Half a dozen sunrods and some rope to make a lightchain of overlapping light sources would work, as well.
I was going to reply, but Kinevon summed it up rather nicely.
The players didn't just retreat and stock up (although they eventually did and then defeated the level with no worries) --- they cried foul. I can perfectly understand retreating after you realise you have no light sources or the alarm gets sounded to stock up on torches - however, the idea that this encounter is so hard at face value that experienced players should ragequit, and is only made easy due to poor writing, is nonsense. Paizo has a lot of badly designed areas (see: Thistletop), but this particular dungeon level isn't one of them.
Again I posit: have a look at the actual layout, imagining you are a party entering through either door. It doesn't scream death with no knowledge of the interior: generally speaking each room gives only a very small unlit area even if the party are doing nothing but holding torches. You can take it a room at a time. Your main worry might be going down one passage and being flanked from the other.
For a emerald spire dungeon that you should ACTUALLY ragequit (and thankfully can be avoided), see level 5. That level is a TPK machine.
graystone:
a. Good adventure design says that a goblin with class levels for a level 1 adventure should be rare, not the norm.
b. Since the PCs can completely circle around the Spire before going in, they should have a fairly good idea of the actual area covered by the Spire ground level, so have an idea of how much they need in the way of light sources to completely cover it if it were just an empty space.
c: They can be, but if the p-arty can avoid raising an alarm, which is the "smart" way to play, it becomes much easier. The adventure includes what changes if an alarm is raised, and, yes, it does make it harder.Remember that if the party has a light source, they are not blind. They are NOT blind. They are not BLIND.
d: It sounded more like the players ragequit, rather than just retreated and regrouped.
Again, it is not complete darkness unless you don't have a light source. If you don't have darkvision, you are a fool to not have a light source of some sort.
The special rules of the dungeon make normal light sources weaker, not immaterial.
Half a dozen sunrods and some rope to make a lightchain of overlapping light sources would work, as well.
a: Players CAN'T assume "Good adventure design".
b: And if there are more than one level like that? Torches get snuffed out? Players can guess, sure. Depends if they are willing to die on a guess.c: If their light source gets put out they are blind, blind, blind. A cantrip puts out torches as would a simple water trap. Second, avoiding raising an alarm SHOULD be next to impossible when the bad guys MUST see you before you do do to the darkness. If it's set up that the people that can see 5' sneak up on the people that can see 60', the bad guys are being played wrong.
d: Even assuming not blind, darkness gives huge bonuses to them and minuses to you. 50% miss chances, no dex, ect. It's not a good situation.
My point will continue to be that a group of goblins run well should obliterate an adventure group in these conditions. The group can't assume they are being cuddled do to "Good adventure design".
Blakmane: I could care less about the actual layout. The goblins should have an overwhelming advantage and should crush them. I know I wouldn't assume they are being played super dumb and I wouldn't have gone in. I'd have knocked a hole in the level 2 wall before I'd have gone through level 1.
The vision range DOES "scream death". Using meta-knowledge isn't something a player SHOULD use in figuring out dangers. Simple mobile tactics keep the party at range as the foes have a MUCH greater vision range. Continued ambushes/snipping from cover should be the norm. Retreats then readied shots to lead the player into traps. I don't find forcing the goblins to play badly to be 'good' design.
a. Good adventure design says that a goblin with class levels for a level 1 adventure should be rare, not the norm.
I find this to be highly objectionable as the worst form of metagaming.
PCs have never heard of game design and don't know what "level 1" means. A PC should assume there could be anything from a lone geriatric goblin to a balor or anything in between waiting in there. Assuming that they'll be find going blind into an unknown locale because some mystical universal force prevents them from ever, EVER, encountering a creature too powerful for them to defeat is, IMO, obnoxiously metagamey.
I would reward those players by putting something in there that TPKs them for that kind of reasoning. I might give them a warning first. Not about the danger inside, but about assuming that being level 1 affords them protection from running into a CR2 or CR3 or even CR4 battle (all of which are reasonable and fair based on the rules and suggestions published in the Core Rulebook). Let alone unreasonable or unfair battles like a CR10 demon they're supposed to run from instead of fight (e.g. it's guarding a front door which makes the PCs look for a back door).
In my current campaign, we're playing a total sandbox. The PCs are level 4 and just fought a CR 11 battle because they went somewhere they shouldn't. Fortunately the author of that particular battle designed the level 10 boss badly (and I chose not to edit him to be more dangerous, just so the PCs could have a chance). They pulled it off but still one PC died. My players know it's a sandbox and they know there will be encounters both above and below their level and they know they need to scout, plan, and avoid where necessary or they won't survive.
I think every player should approach every game, even high-scripted railroad APs, like it's a dangerous sandbox. Adventuring should be like that, or it's not adventuring at all.
Your point can continue to be whatever the Abyss you want it to be...however, you've been told how other parties have overcome it without throwing a fit over the situation. The party in question just seems immature rather than veteran. Quitting isn't acceptable. Problem solving is the whole key to role-playing.
Buy a rope. Tie a knot every 5 feet. Tie a rock to the end. Cast light on each knot.
Enter dungeon, each person throws the coil along, creating several lines of light, illuminating an area where you can now fight with vision.
P--o--o--o--x x is stone/weight, o is light, - is rope, P is Player.
P--o--o--o--x
P--o--o--o--x
P--o--o--o--x
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Buy consumables such as Lamp oil and get creative if you dont have access to the light cantrip. It also does damage when thrown and is very cheap.
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In any adventure but this one, characters without darkvision being able to cast Light or bringing along their own light sources would be considered adequately prepared.
@Errant Mercenary and David knott 242:
You'd only need multiple casters if you wanted it to work on multiple ropes. The first knot you cast it on would light up the whole rope, because the knot isn't a separate object. I think it's a fine addition to the other strategies brought up above.
Regardless, it's only in the top level, so even if your characters aren't set up to deal with it specifically, once you get past it, you'll be back in business for months of adventuring.