I am running a Gestalt Rise Of the Runelords campaign with what started as 3 gestalt characters, and now 4 gestalt characters.
One of my players has had a wierd niche for making highly optimized Min Max, one trick pony kind of builds. Which I don't mind at all, but I feel he gets bored, or feel useless in situations that don't require his expertise.
One of his character's was some sort of ranger/monk that pooled everything into grappling people and using aspect of the beast.
For gestalt purposes, thats fine, ranger/monk. Woo.
THEN, he made a character that was warpriest monk. Which as you all know, Warpriest is a Cleric/fighter. I was a bit skeptical allowing a hybrid class used in a gestalt, but whatever.
HOWEVER, he decided to use the Sacred Fist archetype. Effectively making him a Monk/Monk. Which he did to double up on AC bonuses through wisdom. Literally giving him 20+AC, High CMD, and Good saves all around. Mind you as sensei, using his wisdom for attacks.
I had to pull him aside after a couple of sessions, telling him that that build has been under a lot of scrutiny among a lot of boards, and makes his AC and Saves near impossible for any enemies to touch him, effectively allowing him to walk through any dungeon in the current module mostly unharmed. And increasing monster's attack bonuses, or introducing monster's with higher attack bonuses would wreck the other PCs.
BUT I DIGRESS, here is where I need some advice:
He made a Paladin/Gunslinger
That he ended up retraining into a Divine Hunter Hunter/Pistolero Gunslinger.
It's not too crazy of a build, he made to pistols, and that was fine. I didn't keep track of his ammunition, if anything it was relatively mundane.
Now he is making a revolver, which I didn't have too much problems with, but now he notices the hefty price tags of having to make bullets. So now he wants to a custom Magic Item of Abundant Ammunition to counteract the hefty price of having to make bullets.
I am not a stickler about ammo count when it comes to arrows, and bolts, and stuff, but I feel since a revolver is faster to reload, and needs to be reloaded less often. So in conclusion, he will be turning lv 5 soon and will be adding his dex to to damage, etc etc.
My worries of letting such a custom magic item, is that he might find a way to abuse it, such as carrying 5 of each type of bullet (adamantine, silver, etc) and effectively going to town with mundane bullets, and skipping over the costs that he should paying for such expensive ammunition.
Secondly, he is part ranger, which already gives him access to Abundant Ammunition, which Normal Gunslingers would not have access to. So I feel more inclined to deny his request for an automatic abundant ammunition item, since his class features allow him to do so by spending the resources available to him.
I come from the perspective that I wouldn't give a wizard or sorcerer a ring of automatic shield or mage armor, since he already has such access.
So, should I make it expensive, or deny him such item?
Okay, first of all. Your player sounds like a real dick.
Secondly, the magic item creation rules are only guidelines, and continiuous low level spells are often used for Major cheese.
Here's some relevant rules.
The correct way to price an item is by comparing its abilities to similar items (see Magic Item Gold Piece Values), and only if there are no similar items should you use the pricing formulas to determine an approximate price for the item. If you discover a loophole that allows an item to have an ability for a much lower price than is given for a comparable item in the Core Rulebook, the GM should require using the price of the Core Rulebook item, as that is the standard cost for such an effect. Most of these loopholes stem from trying to get unlimited uses per day of a spell effect from "command word" or "use-activated or continuous" descriptions.
And it seems as if he forgot about one important rule.
If item is continuous or unlimited, not charged, determine cost as if it had 100 charges. If it has some daily limit, determine as if it had 50 charges.
If he wants a pouch which creates an unlimited amount of Adamantine Bullets, that would have an additional cost (not price) of 6000 gp.
1x1x2000x2
spell level x caster level x 2000 x 2 (since it is 1min/level)
4000 + 6000 (100 charges)
Cost to craft: 4000/2 + 6000 = 8000 gp
You should probably ban any custom-designed items and attempts to add som "requirement" for a discount of the price.
A ring of continuous mage armor shouldn't follow the magic item creation guidelines for spells, but for the static bonus it grants.
TL;DR
No. Don't.
It seems as if you are too lax with the magic item creation rules. So don't allow them to make any custom-designed items, since they'll probably unwittingly cheat the system.
You player does not min/max, he cheats. First of all you cannot stack the warpriest and monk AC bonus because they are the same type of bonus. There are a couple of FAQ on the subject. Even if it did the gestalt rules state if both classes have the same feature they do not stack, instead you take the better of the two.
I have no problem with optimized character and even min maxing as long as it is done within the rules. Players like this you need to watch and double check everything. Getting smite evil on a large number of attacks targeting touch AC is going to mean he can take down just about any BBEG in a round. I would not worry about the special ammunition as a paladin he can bypass ANY damage resistance with smite evil.
I don't know if revolver ammo costs more, but paper alchemical charges cost 1.2gp to make. If he spent that 8000 gold on ammo instead of making the magic item, he'd have about 6,666 rounds. Let's say he gets off 2 shots per round at level 5, we'll say each combat is 10 rounds (which we all know it isn't)x 4 combats per day, that's 80 rounds per day, he could go 83 adventuring days before he ran out. If he's somehow using 2 pistols, he'll still get 41 adventuring days. Just as a comparison, in PFS this would take him to level 13.
As he levels increase he'll be shooting more rounds per round, but his wealth will also increase.
What I'm getting at is that the myth that the cost of ammo is somehow a balancing factor for a gunslinger is just that, a myth. It doesn't really matter if you let him have it or not the cost is actually negligible.
Right now the player is worried about ramping up his to-hit modifier and his damage modifier and thinks he needs all these magic items to do it, so is worried about the ammo cost. Eventually he'll figure out that since it's all touch attacks, he could have a Wizard BAB and still never miss, and since he's ranged, he'll always full attack, so even with relatively low bonuses to damage, the full attacking and never missing more than makes up for it.
Okay, first of all. Your player sounds like a real dick.
Secondly, the magic item creation rules are only guidelines, and continiuous low level spells are often used for Major cheese.
Here's some relevant rules.
The correct way to price an item is by comparing its abilities to similar items (see Magic Item Gold Piece Values), and only if there are no similar items should you use the pricing formulas to determine an approximate price for the item. If you discover a loophole that allows an item to have an ability for a much lower price than is given for a comparable item in the Core Rulebook, the GM should require using the price of the Core Rulebook item, as that is the standard cost for such an effect. Most of these loopholes stem from trying to get unlimited uses per day of a spell effect from "command word" or "use-activated or continuous" descriptions.And it seems as if he forgot about one important rule.
If item is continuous or unlimited, not charged, determine cost as if it had 100 charges. If it has some daily limit, determine as if it had 50 charges.If he wants a pouch which creates an unlimited amount of Adamantine Bullets, that would have an additional cost (not price) of 6000 gp.
1x1x2000x2
spell level x caster level x 2000 x 2 (since it is 1min/level)4000 + 6000 (100 charges)
Cost to craft: 4000/2 + 6000 = 8000 gp
You should probably ban any custom-designed items and attempts to add som "requirement" for a discount of the price.
A ring of continuous mage armor shouldn't follow the magic item creation guidelines for spells, but for the static bonus it grants.
TL;DR
No. Don't.
It seems as if you are too lax with the magic item creation rules. So don't allow them to make any custom-designed items, since they'll probably unwittingly cheat the system.
He suggested this to me, and I told him I would consult sources, and meditate on this predicament. So lets say that he wants to go this route and buy it outright, that would make it 16,000gp?
The only reason I mention buying this outright, is because other gunslinger items require one to have the gunslinger class or gunsmithing I believe. Also as part of his back story, he is a human who worships some dwarf god of creating stuff. So he plays it that his god granted him the knowledge to make a battered gun, and then his god somehow gave him the knowledge to make a revolver. So for our party's sorceror who makes items, the concept of firearms would be strange and foreign for him to replicate. Does that sound relatively fair?
You player does not min/max, he cheats. First of all you cannot stack the warpriest and monk AC bonus because they are the same type of bonus. There are a couple of FAQ on the subject. Even if it did the gestalt rules state if both classes have the same feature they do not stack, instead you take the better of the two.
I have no problem with optimized character and even min maxing as long as it is done within the rules. Players like this you need to watch and double check everything. Getting smite evil on a large number of attacks targeting touch AC is going to mean he can take down just about any BBEG in a round. I would not worry about the special ammunition as a paladin he can bypass ANY damage resistance with smite evil.
Well that is the controversy with sacred fist/monk.
The warpriest bonus is "AC Bonus (Su)"
While the Monk bonus is "AC Bonus (Ex)"
That is why some people say it should stack, while others don't believe it should.
Luckily, as I had said, he changed from paladin, to Ranger, so the smite evil touch AC shenanigan shouldn't be too much of a problem.
I don't know if revolver ammo costs more, but paper alchemical charges cost 1.2gp to make. If he spent that 8000 gold on ammo instead of making the magic item, he'd have about 6,666 rounds. Let's say he gets off 2 shots per round at level 5, we'll say each combat is 10 rounds (which we all know it isn't)x 4 combats per day, that's 80 rounds per day, he could go 83 adventuring days before he ran out. If he's somehow using 2 pistols, he'll still get 41 adventuring days. Just as a comparison, in PFS this would take him to level 13.
As he levels increase he'll be shooting more rounds per round, but his wealth will also increase.
What I'm getting at is that the myth that the cost of ammo is somehow a balancing factor for a gunslinger is just that, a myth. It doesn't really matter if you let him have it or not the cost is actually negligible.
Right now the player is worried about ramping up his to-hit modifier and his damage modifier and thinks he needs all these magic items to do it, so is worried about the ammo cost. Eventually he'll figure out that since it's all touch attacks, he could have a Wizard BAB and still never miss, and since he's ranged, he'll always full attack, so even with relatively low bonuses to damage, the full attacking and never missing more than makes up for it.
I believe when you introduce an advanced firearm such as a revolver, it uses cartridges which are a bit more expensive and I think equal to 6gp a shot.
I Guess he is worried about the huge money sink in more expensive bullets for his revolver. Since he has to load it less often, he can also get full attacks in better than he did with his pistol.
He is anticipating going trigger happy, and he is worried about his wallet.
Abundant Ammunition:
When cast on a container such as a quiver or a pouch that contains nonmagical ammunition or shuriken (including masterwork ammunition or shuriken, but not special materials, alchemical attributes, or nonmagical treatments on the ammunition)...
He cannot use this, by definition of the spell, to make anything other than regular bullets. No special materials, no alchemical components like cartridges etc.
Edit: Just in case he is also considering the magic quality 'endless ammunition' it also says in its description that it does not work for firearms; only bows and crossbows.
Right. The price for a continuous Abundant Ammunition is:
Use-activated or continuous: Spell level × caster level × 2,000 gp
This is the base value for a continuous spell in a magic item (from the magic item creation rules)
Then you multiply this by 2 since the duration of the spell is given in minutes
If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half.
After that, you add the price of 100 components of said spell.
If item is continuous or unlimited, not charged, determine cost as if it had 100 charges. If it has some daily limit, determine as if it had 50 charges.
The component of the spell Abundant Ammunition is "a single piece of ammunition". If he wants to have an unlimited supply of Adamantine Bullets, he'll have to pay for 100 adamantine bullet. That's 61 Gold per bullet.
61 x 100 = 6100 gp
So. The grand total of this item which grants him an unlimited supply of Adamantine Bullets is:
Spell level 1 x Caster Level 1 x 2000 x 2 = 4000 gp
+ component cost (6100 gp)
= 10100 gp
The component cost is not divided when crafting this item yourself. So if the sorcerer wants to craft the item for him, then he'll need 2000 gp to make the item and 6100 gp for the component cost.
It would be much cheaper to create an item which grants him normal bullets, but it can't create any other bullets than normal ones.
*****
If there was something unclear, please ask.
*****
By the way, is your player using double-barreled pistols to double his attacks per round?
Edit: I saw you mentioned his cartridges cost 6 gp? Then the component cost is 6600 gp and the grant total is 10600 gp
Edit2: About that Mage Armor ring... What does the spell Mage Armor do? Well it grants the target 4 armor. Bracers of armor (+4) has the same effect, but the price is 16,000 gp. I hope you didn't let them create a ring of Mage Armor for 2000 gp, as the guidelines said it would cost?
Right. The price for a continuous Abundant Ammunition is:
Use-activated or continuous: Spell level × caster level × 2,000 gp
This is the base value for a continuous spell in a magic item (from the magic item creation rules)Then you multiply this by 2 since the duration of the spell is given in minutes
If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half.After that, you add the price of 100 components of said spell.
If item is continuous or unlimited, not charged, determine cost as if it had 100 charges. If it has some daily limit, determine as if it had 50 charges.The component of the spell Abundant Ammunition is "a single piece of ammunition". If he wants to have an unlimited supply of Adamantine Bullets, he'll have to pay for 100 adamantine bullet. That's 61 Gold per bullet.
61 x 100 = 6100 gp
So. The grand total of this item which grants him an unlimited supply of Adamantine Bullets is:
Spell level 1 x Caster Level 1 x 2000 x 2 = 4000 gp
+ component cost (6100 gp)
= 10100 gpThe component cost is not divided when crafting this item yourself. So if the sorcerer wants to craft the item for him, then he'll need 2000 gp to make the item and 6100 gp for the component cost.
It would be much cheaper to create an item which grants him normal bullets, but it can't create any other bullets than normal ones.
*****
If there was something unclear, please ask.
*****
By the way, is your player using double-barreled pistols to double his attacks per round?
Edit: I saw you mentioned his cartridges cost 6 gp? Then the component cost is 6600 gp and the grant total is 10600 gp
Edit2: About that Mage Armor ring... What does...
Alright so as ArtlessKnave pointed out, special material ammunition cannot be replicated. So that worry is out. Meaning he would just have regular bullets.
So I think you are in the right track of a 4000gp item.
In addition, the whole Mage armor and shield ring, is just an example of class specific spells, that are low leveled and practical. Much like the spell Abundant Ammunition that he is CAPABLE of casting. So one argument against him having and abundant ammunition constant item is that we would all like an item that has a continuous Mage armor or Shield effect, but most people just spend 1 round to cast it before battle. Action economy wise, people use those kind of spells to help during battle, and to be effective they cast them right as battle starts or a little bit before.
This character is fully capable of casting this spell, but I guess is kinda lazy, scared of using up the resource of casting the spell?
He might think he will save some cash in the longer run?
Oh well, it doesn't help him reload any faster and he won't get anything but normal bullets from it. I bet he'll forget about this item when he learns he can't duplicate his adamantine bullets.
He might think he will save some cash in the longer run?
Oh well, it doesn't help him reload any faster and he won't get anything but normal bullets from it. I bet he'll forget about this item when he learns he can't duplicate his adamantine bullets.
Well that is is another thing,
Before, when he had his original pistol, I did not care about ammunition cost. It was a move action to reload and his pistol had 1 chamber and early firearm ammunition was cheap to make. So in that sense, I did not give a hoot.
Now that he has an "advanced firearm" the game has changed.
He now has a revolver that has 6 chambers. Reloading all of those chamber is a FREE action. And misfires do not make his gun explode anymore. (He had his original guns blow up twice on him.)
So from a DM point of view(with his revolver), I am looking at a 20ft range weapon, that targets touch AC, up to 5 range increments, that can be reloaded as a free action, and has to be reloaded after 6 shots.
So I am very hesitant to give him much leeway with infinite normal bullets. I feel that makes his class options to stronk, while the other PC's have their other methods of attacking.
Keep in mind the various Pistolero errata:
"In the Pistolero archetype, in the Up Close
and Deadly deed, before the final sentence, add the
following:
The cost of using this deed cannot be reduced with the
Signature Deed feat, the true grit class feature, or any
similar effect.
In the Pistol Training ability, remove the second to
last sentence: "Every four levels
thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), the bonus on damage rolls
increases by +1."
Agreeing with Saldiven here. Custom made items made by players who want to have an "edge over other players" should never be allowed. And any firearms from the "Advanced Firearms" list shouldn't be allowed. Let him have his exploding gun again, that's part of the charm.
If you're feeling some animosity from me, it's because I have bad experiences with gunslinging players with inferiority complexes.
And as thejeff pointed out, the revolver (he shouldn't have) completely ignores the limitation gunslingers have: Range.
Gunslingers need to get in there to deal damage. They need to place themselves in range of their enemies. That's their tradeoff for touch AC. Don't let him get away with bypassing it.
To the OP:
Wow, I can't imagine how much you're having to work to make RotRL even remotely challenging for the party you've described. Honestly, if you're using all the current Paizo material, three optimized characters with a 25 point buy could take on RotRL without much trouble, if played as written.
On topic:
Be very, very, very careful about allowing custom made magic items. It has the capacity of opening a huge Pandora's box, without the capacity of keeping Hope trapped within.
Edit:
Also, Modern Firearms do not exist on Golarion. I assume you're using Golarion since you're running RotRL. You should just deny him making the Revolver in the first place.
They have a 20 point buy to work with. And I expected it to be somewhat difficult so gestalting was introduced. Which was fine with three people. and Now there is an extra person who just joined our game.
So all in all, I have been adding more enemies and increasing health, and I think I have a realtively good system going, though they still tear through many encounters relatively easily.
And Yeah, Now looking back into everything, I am unsure know of letting him have a revolver. I am not too keen on immersion, but Golarion does not seem to have a gun prescense in the slightest.
And as far as his idea of magic items, I explained that even a abundant ammunition item would still need require him to load his revolver each round, and he asked if it was possible to handwaive that.
The more I look into it, the less generous, and RAW I feel.
Keep in mind the various Pistolero errata:
"In the Pistolero archetype, in the Up Close
and Deadly deed, before the final sentence, add the
following:
The cost of using this deed cannot be reduced with the
Signature Deed feat, the true grit class feature, or any
similar effect.In the Pistol Training ability, remove the second to
last sentence: "Every four levels
thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), the bonus on damage rolls
increases by +1."
Duly noted, hopefully this wont sneak up on me.
He might think he will save some cash in the longer run?
Oh well, it doesn't help him reload any faster and he won't get anything but normal bullets from it. I bet he'll forget about this item when he learns he can't duplicate his adamantine bullets.Well that is is another thing,
Before, when he had his original pistol, I did not care about ammunition cost. It was a move action to reload and his pistol had 1 chamber and early firearm ammunition was cheap to make. So in that sense, I did not give a hoot.
Now that he has an "advanced firearm" the game has changed.
He now has a revolver that has 6 chambers. Reloading all of those chamber is a FREE action. And misfires do not make his gun explode anymore. (He had his original guns blow up twice on him.)So from a DM point of view(with his revolver), I am looking at a 20ft range weapon, that targets touch AC, up to 5 range increments, that can be reloaded as a free action, and has to be reloaded after 6 shots.
So I am very hesitant to give him much leeway with infinite normal bullets. I feel that makes his class options to stronk, while the other PC's have their other methods of attacking.
Note that the revolver's capacity isn't really important. It's a free action to reload the standard pistol or a all chambers of the revolvers. Whichever he uses, he can still reload as many times as he needs to full attack. Unless you specifically set a limit on free actions for that.
The extended range increments for touch attacks is the dangerous part.
Well the standard pistol would only be a swift action to reload with alchemical cartridges, and then free at lv 11 with lightning reload.
so making full attacks would need multiple pistols or something like that.With the revolver, its a simple free action to reload and go to town with any sort of full attack. So that coupled with the long range, and high Dex and DEX to damage makes it even more dangerous.
Agreeing with Saldiven here. Custom made items made by players who want to have an "edge over other players" should never be allowed. And any firearms from the "Advanced Firearms" list shouldn't be allowed. Let him have his exploding gun again, that's part of the charm.
If you're feeling some animosity from me, it's because I have bad experiences with gunslinging players with inferiority complexes.
And as thejeff pointed out, the revolver (he shouldn't have) completely ignores the limitation gunslingers have: Range.
Gunslingers need to get in there to deal damage. They need to place themselves in range of their enemies. That's their tradeoff for touch AC. Don't let him get away with bypassing it.
You make many good points good sir! I enjoy your point of view on things. I think the general sentiment I am feeling now is that he should not have access to a revolver... at this time...
Even from an RP perspective he told me that his "God" imparted him knowledge of how to make a battered gun from scrap metal and other odd ends, and because of that its not a perfect gun, but BECAUSE he needed devine intervention, guns are not common at all.Thus, maybe I can make it some sort of plot hook to obtain divine knowledge, or schematics for the revolver. I just don't want him to be sniping everything out of the air, and stealing the show from everyone else, ESPECIALLY if he wants a magic item to supplement the NEAR MAGIC item that is a revolver in this world.
Yeah, the only concern is the action economy really. Abundant ammunition does all of the other stuff already.
Honestly, I think guns should target flat footed ac instead of touch. It makes sneak attack pretty easy, but at least big enemies are not auto hit.
Abundant Ammunition:
When cast on a container such as a quiver or a pouch that contains nonmagical ammunition or shuriken (including masterwork ammunition or shuriken, but not special materials, alchemical attributes, or nonmagical treatments on the ammunition)...
Heh...I'm wondering when they errata'd that. This sort of stuff seems to be cropping up all too frequently lately in my games and I like to keep a house rules minimum table to make keeping track of changes to a minimum (and some of my players just use the PRD at home). Now I'm wondering if I should just make sure I have wifi access and not even bother with buying hard copies and providing them for table reference.
I wouldn't as be bothered if the it wasn't such an eye-roller in the first place because obviously it's more powerful than Magic Weapon which saves 2,000 gp or its latter level version. Then again my players love it when they fight a ranged combatant that is using poison (which I had to eek out a DC barely high enough that the wizard will fail maybe about half the time if hit more than once with a delay onset 1 rd injury poison) and I tell them with a smile that besides the few remaining pieces of poisoned ammunition said npc has on their body, they also have a bit of string.
Anyway, on item creation (or any other inventive stuff the players want to do) these types of rules are guidelines. Comparisons should still be made with existing items before setting a final price. Look at the more standard core stuff to set your benchmark precedents and tailor to a price you think fits your campaign.
For instance one of the more common (mainly) player item creation proposals I've seen is an Amulet of Protection from Evil. Given the protections it grants it clearly should not be priced as the formula suggests. But I wouldn't disallow it entirely (nor outright ban anything inventive the players want to do...you are not playing RPGA\PFS).
There are a few magic item precedents in the 'endless' ammunition department for Pathfinder but I think Wonderstell pretty much has the right of it as far as pricing.