Should I beef up Thistletop?

[Aaron Gillespie]

My party finished up the Catacombs of Wrath last night. They are:

Female Elf Witch
Female Gnome Alchemist
Male shapeshifting Ulfen Ranger
Female Barbarian/Sorcerer

Anyway, they reached Level 3 (I ran them through some extra stuff early on) and I wonder if I should beef up Thistletop because of it.

So, should I beef up Thistletop? If so, any suggestions on how?

Thanks all!

[the Lorax]

Do NOT beef up the briar patch - the goblin druid and the tactical limits imposed by the briars are really bad enough as is.

As for the Thistletop itself, IF you really feel that they will just steamroller things, just add in a couple of goblins, an extra couple of the goblin bards alone can make a big difference in the goblins ability to fight.

I'm not so sure that the goblins NEED much extra support as Naulia and the team can be pretty bad (especially if you assume that they've all been exposed to the Yeth Hounds, and you should, it just makes good sense). Given that all the PCs have faced are goblins - it is easy for them to become overconfident and underestimate the remaining threat that Naulia and the others are, especially if Tsuto is with them.

[Stebehil]

I second the Lorax´ advice here. The briar patch is really bad enough (I think we needed almost two sessions for it, and the PCs were in really bad shape afterwards - with Shalelu to help them, no less). My group did annoy the bunyip, and I had my hands full to not have them killed as they panicked and ran in random directions.

In Thistletop, it depends on your group. It can get really bad if they just bash into it and try to kill everything in sight - the sheer number of goblins there could be a problem. And if they really mess up and all the named NPCs know that they are under attack, it can spell doom for them.

[muklowd]

That's a tricky question that depends on so many things ... for example - if the druid gets a warning off to the main keep then things can get tricky for the party right at the front door, with goblins and dogs on the ground and archers in both towers (to say nothing of any potential issues with the bridge) - but if he doesn't then potentially the party can get right up to the door with all the goblins distracted by a variety of pastimes and slow to bring their combined firepower to bear.

So my suggestion would be to have a few extra goblins on hand to drop into the mix in case of something like example two where the party might just roll over the initial goblin defenses like a wave of shiny steel death :)

[Story Archer]

Aaron Gillespie wrote:

My party finished up the Catacombs of Wrath last night. They are:

Female Elf Witch
Female Gnome Alchemist
Male shapeshifting Ulfen Ranger
Female Barbarian/Sorcerer

Anyway, they reached Level 3 (I ran them through some extra stuff early on) and I wonder if I should beef up Thistletop because of it.

So, should I beef up Thistletop? If so, any suggestions on how?

Thanks all!

I don't know how much you need to add to it, though some tweaks can definitely raise the difficulty level. I originally re-built Nualia as a Warpriest and surmised that, as an intelligent enemy who knew her lair well she would take advantage of everything at her disposal. This is how the final fight went:

Spoiler:

First off, Tsuto had escaped and Bruthazmus had retreated to the lower levels to warn Nualia, so at the lowest level, the PC's faced off with Tsuto, Bruthazmus and Lyrie while Nualia and her remaining Yeth Hound observed from down the corridor at the 'T' intersection... when the tide began to turn against the villains, she sent her Yeth Hound to join the fight - remember, he flies, so he wouldn't trigger the trap, and with the trap in place the others know that retreat is not an option. You'd be surprised how potent a timely area Fear effect can be.

Once they were all defeated, Nualia simply turned and walked down the hall, causing the PC's to charge after her - as luck would have it, it was Orik, the turncoat, who sprung the trap, otherwise it surely would have finished off one of the PC's. At any rate, as they navigate the trap, Nualia goes to the room with the Shadows and waits. She has pre-cast, among other buffs, Hide From Undead for just such an eventuality, and when the PC's pursue, she casts Darkness on herself (her weapon). Remember, she has Darksight. So, while the PC's are trying to battle Nualia in the darkness, the Shadows are attacking, practically invisible and dramatically weakening the group... and if it looks like that's not enough to finish the job, Nualia can always channel to heal the Shadows if she wishes. This was very nearly a TPK and easily could have been had I not 1) had a wand of magic missiles discovered with the Imp Elyrium (instead of her magic dagger) and 2) not had Orik agree to join them when they caught him trying to sneak out of the complex. I also added in an alternate victory condition, that a critical hit on Nualia once she had been reduced to 1/2 her hit points would sever the demon arm and take her out of the fight, putting her into a coma - after all, I had future plans for the renegade aasimar.

When you factor in all the ways the Throne Room can go sideways and the lingering threat of Malfeshnekor, Thisteltop is a very difficult dungeon for any appropriately leveled-group. I don't think you have to add too much to it for it to pose a legitimate threat to your party.

[Hythlodeus]

If your group is anything like mine, then yes. considerably.
(Of course, my group rolled their stats, so they naturally are stronger than the average 20 point buy group)
Neither the thistle maze nor Thistletop itself were challenging and I already doubled the Goblins and Yeth hounds. Maybe they shouldn't have surprised Bruthazmus in flagranti with his pants down in the Goblin harem, but I don't think this one encounter would have made that big a difference.

[Latrecis]

I wouldn't unless your group has had a very easy time of it so far. A bit of extra power might be a good thing - it lets them take on more encounters before resting. Which might spare you some of the problems that arise when the pc group needs to rest but much of the fort is unexplored - where do they rest? How do the monsters respond to the attack, etc. The default location and tactics in the AP assume the pc's are attacking for the first time (which when you think about it is pretty ridiculous - it seems highly unlikely to me that 4 pc's at 15 point build even if 3rd level are going to clear the briars, the first two levels of Thistletop and get to Nualia without a single rest or retreat. Yet the AP provides little in the way of guidance for such a situation.)

By the way, the milestone section of the AE version (p. 11) suggests its possible the pc's could be third level at the end of the Cathedral of Wrath, so it doesn't seem your group is that far ahead.

[Wheldrake]

It's not so much a question of whether you should beef up Thistletop, but how you should use the resources at your disposal.

1) The goblins in the thistle tunnels should use their advantages wisely. It's like a home court advantage. However, I played Gogmurt as somewhat reticent to go into all-out war, and he eventually surrendered and bargained with the PCs because of his dissatsfaction with Thistletop leadership.
2) The book suggests that discipline inside Thistletop is awful. The sentries are busier torturing gulls and stealing pickles than watching out. This makes getting into Thistletop fairly easy. But once combat is joined, the goblins should become canny foes. Use the bardic influence, spells and such to maximum advantage, and don't hesitate to increase the number of goblins faced at any one time significantly after a few rounds of noisy combat.

3) Also note that Nualia's Yeth hounds can be game changers. The DC on their fear effect isn't all that high, but the PCs tend to have few save bonuses at this level and a bad die roll will send them fleeing, leaving their pals to face adversaries without backup. In my group, only the paladin saved. The others ran & survived (though one of them almost died to the piercer critter) but the paladin died quickly (retconned into capture and turned as Nualia's b1tch).

[Captain Morgan]

Yeah, the Yeth Hounds triggered a TPK for my party. Fighter and Ranger were running for 5 and 8 rounds respectively, the Inquisitor chose to run another way instead of stay and try to help, and the Bard wandered into the Tentamort's hunting ground trying to funnel the runners. And then the entire floor came after them. Those who weren't killed outright got to see how Nualia sacrifices people.

To be fair, the party didn't even bother clearing the alarm raised topside before running downstairs, and then chose to open the big bad Cathedral doors before exploring any other options. I don't feel TOO bad, because I think it was a combination of bad luck and bad decisions, but there is definitely some disappointment in the party, who don't feel they had adequate warning or opportunity to avoid the TPK.