Reverse-engineering the blade adept into a magus archetype?


Homebrew and House Rules


Hi gang. I was just wondering if anyone's got any ideas regarding how to do this. What I mean is, I don't like how the blade adept works mechanically. I would love blending the arcanist with the magus, but would prefer doing it via a magus archetype that somehow gets access to exploits (and maybe some sort of arcane pool/reservoir hybrid thingie), kind of like an arcanist version of the hexcrafter. Ideally it would change the magus to arcanist casting too. So does anyone have any suggestions for how this could be balanced? It seems like it could be a neat sort of archetype to put together, although perhaps a lot harder to balance than I'm imagining when it's just a nebulous concept in my head. Anyway, I'd love to hear any ideas or views on the matter.

Cheers,
- Gears


Bladebound

You should probably use this Magus Archetype and Blade Adept as your base for tinkering with, since it is essentially the same as the Blade Adept archetype.

As for the whole Reservoir and Pool bit, I would like to remind you that those two features make up the base of the two classes, and if you want access to the two of them, they should be greatly diminished.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Why do so when the Blade Adept Arcanist already is a reverse-engineering of the Bladebound Magus?


So wait, you want to keep the magus 3/4 BAB, add the ability to take exploits, and give the magus 9th level spell progression casting (or change the magus to the weird prepare spells known casting of the arcanist)?

That doesn't sound remotely balanced.


Well, actually, I'm not necessarily sure the black blade aspect would even need to go in there. Probably, if anything, it would be a bit much squeezing both the bladebound stuff and a bunch of arcanist stuff into a single archetype. I'm thinking the ideal approach is granting some exploits to the magus, along with arcanist casting, in exchange for some other class features. Sort of along the lines of the hexcrafter gaining access to hexes. Doing something to make the arcane pool function more like an arcane reservoir is probably a bad idea in hindsight, though; too many unforeseen interactions. Just make the exploits cost arcane pool points, probably. Ideally, perhaps the archetype could be made compatible with the bladebound (I think hexcrafter is?), so you could wholly re-create the blade adept if you wanted, or just create a more generalized arcanist-style magus. These are just my musings at present, though.

Cheers,
- Gears

EDIT: @Claxon: I would like to come up with a way of changing the magus' casting mechanic to work like an arcanist's (not give them more spells or spell levels) and also the option of gaining exploits, much like a hexcrafter magus can gain access to witch hexes. I'm trying to figure out if there could be some way to balance this out. I suppose I'm basically asking which class features this would need to replace, and which would need to be tweaked, et cetera. Sorry if the OP was a bit unclear. I may have been brainstorming a bit too hard. :P Hopefully this clears things up a bit. :)


Asking the magus to change their casting to preparing spells known is a big change in power.

Arguably, at the very least the magus should use Bard spell casting progression, you would need to come up with a table of spells known at each level.

Honestly, for starters you should look at the Eldritch Scion magus archetype and how much they lose just to convert to spontaneous casting. It's a lot, and spontaneous casting still isn't as good as what the arcanist has.


I don't think the eldritch scion loses what it does to accomodate the different casting, though, since spontaneous casting is just objectively worse than prepared casting; I think their trade-offs are more based on all the bloodline stuff they get. I do admit it's a tricky nut to crack. Since all 6-level casters have identical spell progression (including alchemists for their extracts), I think it would probably make sense to keep that, and then give them the same amount of "Spells Prepared" as spontaneous 6-level casters have spells known, since those are also identical across all 6-level casters, and the arcanist's "Spells Prepared" is identical to a sorcerer's "Spells Known" table.

Having said that, I wonder what they could conceivably lose? Obviously Knowledge Pool would need to go, and possibly both spell recall + imp. spell recall, as well as greater spell access. Possibly you could pair that with giving them exploits instead of bonus feats, although that still feels like they should need to pay some additional cost. Hrm. This needs mulling over!

Cheers,
- Gears


Ethereal Gears wrote:

I don't think the eldritch scion loses what it does to accomodate the different casting, though, since spontaneous casting is just objectively worse than prepared casting; I think their trade-offs are more based on all the bloodline stuff they get. I do admit it's a tricky nut to crack. Since all 6-level casters have identical spell progression (including alchemists for their extracts), I think it would probably make sense to keep that, and then give them the same amount of "Spells Prepared" as spontaneous 6-level casters have spells known, since those are also identical across all 6-level casters, and the arcanist's "Spells Prepared" is identical to a sorcerer's "Spells Known" table.

Having said that, I wonder what they could conceivably lose? Obviously Knowledge Pool would need to go, and possibly both spell recall + imp. spell recall, as well as greater spell access. Possibly you could pair that with giving them exploits instead of bonus feats, although that still feels like they should need to pay some additional cost. Hrm. This needs mulling over!

Cheers,
- Gears

Spontaneous spell casting isn't objectively worse, otherwise you wouldn't be after this hybrid variant of spell casting in the first place.

Spontaneous spell casters get more spells per day, in return they have 1 level slower progression for obtaining the next level of spells, and they have a limited repertoire of spells they know. However, most wizards roll with the same spells prepared 90% of the time. And then there is the rare occasion that the wizard has some really weird spell that just happens to be perfect for the occasion.

Sorcerers (and other spontaneous spell casters) can get the same effect by having a mnemonic vestment and a good scroll collection. Arguably for certain things its exceptionally good. Why?

Inquisitor with a Scroll of Restoration with the 1000 gp worth of diamond dust used in the scroll creation. Now you can use Restoration 1/day to remove negative levels for free, and never have to pay that 1000 gp price tag again.


Claxon wrote:


Sorcerers (and other spontaneous spell casters) can get the same effect by having a mnemonic vestment and a good scroll collection. Arguably for certain things its exceptionally good. Why?

Inquisitor with a Scroll of Restoration with the 1000 gp worth of diamond dust used in the scroll creation. Now you can use Restoration 1/day to remove negative levels for free,...

No, they thought of that and explicitly ruled it out

Mnemonic Vestment wrote:
Activating the robe is not an action, but casting the spell otherwise works as normal, including casting time, providing components or foci, and so on.


Sorry, I suppose I expressed myself vaguely. I meant that, in a vacuum, sorcerer-type casting (let's call it "true spontaneous") is generally less powerful than wizard-type casting (let's call this "true prepared"). This is why sorcerers get more spells per day, to compensate. The delayed spell progression of sorcerers is an unbalanced error that shouldn't be part of the system. It's a fairly common houserule to do away with as, even without it, wizards still tend to outperform sorcerers in all but a few niches. Personally I'm more in favor of delaying all 9-level casters to the sorcerer's spell level progression, but that's another matter.

My point vis-a-vis the topic of this thread is that true prepared casting is superior to true spontaneous casting, all other things being equal. While arcanist casting (let's call it "hybrid casting"), all other things being equal, is superior to both. This is why the arcanist gets fewer spells per day than even a (specialist) wizard, and still works off the sorcerer's delayed spell level progression.

However, a bard and a magus gain all their spells at the same levels, and gain just as many spells per day, despite one being spontaneous and one being prepared. The same goes for the warpriest, even though warpriests are true prepared divine casters, and thus can prepare from their whole spell list. There seems to be a pattern of treating 6-level casters as equal, regardless of their casting method, possibly because casting comprises a smaller percentage of their total power. With this in mind, I am trying to figure out what price a magus should have to pay when switching from true prepared casting (the 2nd best kind of casting) to hybrid casting (the, in a vacuum, best kind of casting available in the system). Possibly, it would be fair to have this magus archetype gain one fewer spell per level, in the fashion of the kensai archetype? That would be in line with how an arcanist's spells per day compare with a wizard's, anyway.

Cheers,
- Gears

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

In many ways, the magus already acts as a hybrid prepared/spontaneous caster due to spell recall.

I'd create an archetype that does the following:

1) Magus has a number of spell slots as a bard of his level. For each spell level he can cast, he can prepare a number of spells equal to the number of spells known a bard of his level has -- in other words, his Prepared Spells is the same as a bard's Spells Known table. He can expend a spell slot to cast a spell he has prepared.

2) Whenever the magus gains a magus arcana, he may select an arcanist exploit instead. He uses his Intelligence instead of his Charisma modifier for arcanist exploits and may spend points from his arcane pool instead of an arcane reservoir when using exploits. A magus cannot choose the arcane weapon and familiar exploits. At 4th level, the magus gains an arcanist exploit. At 11th level, the magus can choose a greater exploit instead of a magus arcana. This replaces spell recall and improved spell recall.

This is a slight buff early game but a slight nerf later. Give up the ability to recall spells in exchange for more things to spend your arcane pools on and slightly more flexible spellcasting.


That's definitely a fair point, Cyrad. I just kind of like the arcanist's mechanic better than regular prepared + spell recall, and since I did want to figure out how to create an "exploiter magus" anyway, it just seemed suitable to tack on arcanist casting as well.

I think I like your suggestion. I was at first toying with the idea of keeping the exploits Cha-based, but I daresay that would make the archetype unpardonably MAD. I think this looks nifty, and suitably close to the hexcrafter in terms of what it trades out. It's also wholly compatible with the bladebound archetype, which is just icing on the cake as far as the original idea was concerned. Thanks!

Cheers,
- Gears


Cyrad wrote:

In many ways, the magus already acts as a hybrid prepared/spontaneous caster due to spell recall.

I'd create an archetype that does the following:

1) Magus has a number of spell slots as a bard of his level. For each spell level he can cast, he can prepare a number of spells equal to the number of spells known a bard of his level has -- in other words, his Prepared Spells is the same as a bard's Spells Known table. He can expend a spell slot to cast a spell he has prepared.

2) Whenever the magus gains a magus arcana, he may select an arcanist exploit instead. He uses his Intelligence instead of his Charisma modifier for arcanist exploits and may spend points from his arcane pool instead of an arcane reservoir when using exploits. A magus cannot choose the arcane weapon and familiar exploits. At 4th level, the magus gains an arcanist exploit. At 11th level, the magus can choose a greater exploit instead of a magus arcana. This replaces spell recall and improved spell recall.

This is a slight buff early game but a slight nerf later. Give up the ability to recall spells in exchange for more things to spend your arcane pools on and slightly more flexible spellcasting.

This does seem fairly reasonable.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Homebrew and House Rules / Reverse-engineering the blade adept into a magus archetype? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Homebrew and House Rules