Classes, Archetypes, Traits, Feats, and Skills


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Been reading these boards for a while, and after all the min-maxing discussions, I have to wonder: does anyone pay any attention to a character's backstory when they're throwing all these things into the mix? How did this Magus come to use ranged weapons instead of melee weapons? How did that Arcanist gain his unarmed combat abilities? And so on. Or is the … character of the character unimportant, and only what he can do matters?


This game is such that some mechanics are better than others. But it makes sense that people doing adventuring would use the best stuff and be trained in the most useful things.
Also, background and personality and stuff is whatever you want it to be and has little to no correlation to min-maxing. So because of that it's not discussed as much on the boards, especially the advice and the rules and general discussion at least.
Optimizers will often think of some story/character and find the mechanics that do the best for it. Some make an awesome character and figure out a backstory to fit.


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I think the backstory is extremely important, and I think many others here would agree. Backstory informs mechanics and vice versa but neither dictates the other, and where you start matters little as long as you have both in the end. Not all mechanics require explanation (or make for good drama) the same way the entire backstory doesn't need to be completely reflected in the mechanics.

What you observe here on the boards is simply the fact that the mechanics form the game's language, so to speak. Sure, we can, and do, argue about the minuteae and don't always agree or even see eye to eye, but they're the closest thing we have to an objective framework to discuss. Flavor is highly subjective, making it much, much harder to discuss it. Just because you don't see it or hear it from us doesn't mean we don't care. Its just something we're more likely to express within our own personal gaming circles.


Umm because I decided to learn how to archer?

Silver Crusade

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Oh, of course. I mean I write guides, all I do is create long an intricate backstories to validate all of my mechanical choices.

Why just yesterday I just finished a 10 page essay on why my Barbarian took power attack, starting with their great grandfather's thirst for revenge to the entire family's line of martial training, finishing with a glorious epic of such resounding emotional impact that it drove my GM to tears. I then burned the entire thing, because it wasn't good enough to be viewed by another human.

I'll get back to you in 3 months once I decide how I can possibly validate placing a skill point into perception in iambic pentameter, possibly with a rhyme scheme inspired by the greatest poets of old.


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Let the Stormwind fallacy thread commence!


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Though the sarcasm amuses me I don't think its fair to reduce this thread to one of ridiculing this particular misconception. I'm vocal about my dislike for repetitive threadtopics where we argue in circles and never get anywhere, so you'd think I'd be on the bandwagon to belittle this thread, too. The difference is that I think this particular misconception is common, and harmful, enough that it would be nice if we could do something to mitigate it as much as possible. First on the list is to sincerely engage in discussions on the topic so as to dispel it.


i tried that whole backstory thing with my group twice and was saddened when my very first character died. but then i pulled on my big boy pants and made another character with a back story then the gm offered a bounty and since my character was new i said i would have a crack at it and suddenly my new guy has this bounty on his head so i made a back story for it about how he took a job only to find out that it was a set up and how he barely got out of there alive only to have his friends picked off or captured. welp the dm was like nope you f!!+ed it up you got you people killed and your friends sentenced to death by torture. i was like fine fine sure what ever but if baron Von Strudel-burg and my currant character what ever his name is cross paths he is guna act the part of an avenging angel and bring down the hammer of god on that evil man(demons running from the wrath of a good man's furry). well to find out strudel-burg is guna be part of the war we are fighting but the dm and party members will not allow me to have my vengeance (neutral good character). so that's why with my currant group and dm i don't really care about my back story any more. i am currently seeking another pathfinder's group to play with.

“Demons run when a good man goes to war
Night will fall and drown the sun
When a good man goes to war

Friendship dies and true love lies
Night will fall and the dark will rise
When a good man goes to war

Demons run, but count the cost
The battle's won, but the child is lost”

― Steven Moffat

it's doctor who.


When you can make up any story you pretty much want , it isnt hard to justify your build.

So yeah , it is quite easy to build the PC mechanics first and then come up with a story of why he is what he is.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

I second Stormwind.

However, for the sake of discussion, I usually first have a class/role in mind for my group's game, then I have some idea of how I would like to play that role, then I look for the mechanics that will help me best carry out my role and meet my character idea, then I fill in the details.

Sometimes I see something new that I would like to use and then make up a story around it. For example, my campaign had already started when Elemental Ally was published. Some day I'd like to try that archetype because it seems interesting. I already have a novel (for my table) back story to explain why he's an Elemental Ally and not a vanilla Druid.


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This is a game of numbers. Since numbers and rules are absolutes, it's easy for posters to the boards to optimize only in terms of numbers. You can't debate optimizing for greatsword over hand axes in your build; over time your damage and accuracy numbers will simply always be better with the greatsword over the hand axes.

So on these boards fluff like backstory will always come second. That being said, there's no reason why in real life it has to.

If you're fluff guy/gal, flaunt it. Create fun and interesting characters, define them, and really try to model your characters from that text. If that's your zen embrace it.

I myself prefer a mechanics first, fluff second approach. Its not that I don't like creating stories around my characters. Rather its because most of the time I don't really know what I want my character to be.

Most of my GMs lately have allowed dice rolling instead of point buys for stats. I roll my dice, think about where the numbers fell and consider what the best class would be. From there I ask questions of my GMs about the world and form an image of what race would fit into the milieu. If they're playing a world without gunslingers where the GM hates and oppresses gnomes, no need to play a gnomish spellslinger right?

So now I've got my basic stats, race and class. How did this guy get so strong, or how did she get so smart? How did that influence their childhood and adolescence? I like super heroes a lot so often my characters are treated like Marvel Comics' mutants; they come into some measure of power and preternatural skill in their teens that sets them apart from society making them hated and feared by their peers.

Now sometimes the characters chafe against that treatment. They lash out, get rebellious and develop Traits like Reactionary or World Traveler because they are running from a lot of bullies. Other times I might have them trying to be heroes from an early age and changing the minds of their immediate community. At this point a special mentor might take them on and train them in some unique ability, the trainer understanding some greater truth of the character's potential. This is how I'd justify a wizard knowing Improved Unarmed Strike.

In the end there's nothing wrong with making the fluff conform to the mechanics. Heck, the original Conan movie had a barbarian with massive strength, but he could also read, write, and craft elaborate battle plans. He had a basic knowledge of religion too. The guy playing that character might have just decided at some point they want to go into a divine class and since there's gonna be undead in the game he wanted to be prepared. Thus he took a trait that gave his barbarian Knowledge: Religion as a class skill and fleshed it out in his backstory as being the son of a very wise barbarian chieftain who taught him all about the gods and the riddle of Steel.

Rather than be annoyed by the way others on these boards or in RL build their characters, try to accept that for those folks that's the fun of this game. You might be surprised just how in depth a mechanically optimized PC's backstory can get if you go numbers first in your build!


Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

I didn't say I was annoyed at the way others build their characters. I posted because I'm trying to understand their viewpoint.

As for the sarcasm, well, the validity and usefulness of opinions expressed sarcastically is greatly diminished, as far as I'm concerned.

Silver Crusade

Ed Reppert wrote:

I didn't say I was annoyed at the way others build their characters. I posted because I'm trying to understand their viewpoint.

As for the sarcasm, well, the validity and usefulness of opinions expressed sarcastically is greatly diminished, as far as I'm concerned.

Your question has been asked to death over on boards like these, so my response was simply to amuse myself. Your question was also very pointed against people who don't feel the need to have a reason for all of these things, which is entirely acceptable. Although really, I got my point across fine with sarcasm.

Seriously, you're asking if someone should have to have a story reason for why they took archery over melee, it's a fighting style, it's their call and they don't need a reason behind it. Sure, some people like giving everything a reason in their backstory, but others see an idea that looks cool and want to build around that.

Mark Hoover wrote:
You might be surprised just how in depth a mechanically optimized PC's backstory can get if you go numbers first in your build!

This is something I completely agree with, and I've gotten a lot of fun builds that I built around later and layered personality on top of once playing. In a 5e game I found out that you could dual wield hand crossbows, it sounded awesome, so I made a character who did it, and eventually they became a delusional former military man who fought in an imaginary war that they made medals to prove existed.

So to answer your question with less sarcasm, of course there's people who want a story reason for all their in character choices, but there's also a ton of people who don't need to validate their character choices with background because it's not relevant to their character's story. A magus shouldn't have to explain why they're taking archery anymore than they should validate where to place their skill points, and most don't.

I for one just see no reason to type up a massive backstory explaining all of my choices when I can let my in character actions speak more loudly.


Ed Reppert wrote:
How did this Magus come to use ranged weapons instead of melee weapons?

Hilge Hexslinger, NG female Halfling magus 1:
Hilge Hexslinger had been the best in her Halfling village with their sacred slings. When she was young her mother used to joke that she was born with a sling in her hand. When she came of age and began her militia training with the sling staff it was as if she rediscovered her love of slinging all over again.

But then came the goblins.

The feral humanoid horde was relentless. They raided the farms on the outskirts of the village and harried every caravan the wee folk sent to garner aid. Hilge alone volunteered for a dangerous mission; to cross the Shadowboughs and find the wizard Brune.

Hilge survived the perilous journey hiding and using her sling sparingly. It took her three days to reach the wizard's tower but when she arrived she found she was barely too late. The tower was burning and in the distance the last of the goblin horde was sauntering off with what loot they could carry. Hilge waited until they were gone and then burst into the burning building, hoping beyond hope to recover Brune the Black Hand.

Alas she found only a dying man. His familiar was slain and his library was engulfed around him. Brune beckoned Hilge to him and whispered his dying breath. Then the last vestiges of his power exploded forth from his words. Hilge awoke hours later in the south field of the tower; every tree and shrub around her had been smashed outward as if some massive power had fallen here from a great height.

She could feel it though. A portion of Brune's power, his essence, still lingered in her sling staff. It was as if by sheer will the old arcanist had imparted his knowledge and skill to the weapon. What's more, the young Halfling could "see" the eldritch formulae in her mind, as if she'd had training in them for years. Somehow Hilge found she could use some measure of the power and harness it through her beloved weapon.

Three days later Hilge returned to her village. In the Battle of Embry's Field she earned her surname, Hexslinger. She sent stones, infused with motes of eldritch energies, hurling at her foes with all her unerring skill. She called upon Brunigsval, the name she'd given her sling staff, to unleash a searing blast of fire that burned three of the goblins right before her. And when at last Gutroil, the field general for the horde revealed himself across the field the young Halfling spent her last round putting a deadly shot infused with power right between his eyes.

Since Embry's Field Hilge Hexslinger has realized something has changed within her. Perhaps it is the old wizard's spirit somewhere in her mind or perhaps it's the old adage that you can't go home again. Whatever the reason Hilge has packed her things and left her little village in search of greater adventure.

Ed Reppert wrote:
How did that Arcanist gain his unarmed combat abilities?

Geller The Eldritch Fist, LG male human arcanist 1:
"Again!" Sensei Toban demanded. Geller looked up at his opponent, Hanti. She looked as if Iori himself had sculpted her from porcelain. "GET UP!" Toban barked. Geller rose on unsteady feet. As the setting sun's rays caught his eye the human lad realized he'd been at this for hours and wasn't getting any better.

The sparring went on for another hour in the same vein; Hanti surged forward, Geller threw a few blocks and punches more feeble than the last, and then he was on the mat. Again. And Toban was shouting. Again.

Geller had been taken in by Master Toban when he was a boy and his family had been enslaved by the Green Serpent pirates. He'd been raised and trained in the ways of a monk like all in the care of Master Toban, but for some reason his questioning mind always wandered. It was as if there was always some better way, an answer floating just out of reach for Geller.

He excelled in his studies. As part of the training Master Toban taught reading, logic, debate and history. Every night while nursing fresh bruises Geller would pour over the old texts and scrolls of the war masters and monks from the bygone days before the empire had fallen. He was convinced that there was some way, some hidden skill or power to help him unlock his potential.

Recently though he'd found his mind wandering to Hanti. She was beautiful, graceful and fierce in spirit. She was also Toban's granddaughter. Still the two had grown close; not in the way Geller wished but with a true friendship.

Hanti had been raised on tales of the old war masters and unlike monks of the order she yearned for battle over contemplation. It was Hanti that knew of the Earthlore Vault below the dojo. Hanti led her friend down, past the simple oni guards asleep from the huge meal she'd fed them. Geller happened upon the heretical teachings of one, called Brune the Black Hand.

He hadn't been simply a war master but a spell caster as well. He'd theorized that fighting was a waste of energy; that in fact the true measure of a powerful mortal was to best their enemies with all their mind could conjure. The mortal's personal energies should be tapped only as a last resort.

Geller pounced on this lore and stole a tome of arcane teachings for study. Over time he learned to tap the external forces of the universe and harness them with primal will. The formulae he studied shaped these forces into nearly anything he desired from weapons and defenses to commands and summons.

Then one day it all went too far.

Geller was at the drills and about to be beaten for the millionth time. Hanti was floating and readying to strike and the inevitability of it all hit him at once. He would never see his parents again; Hanti would never love him; Toban would never be proud; Geller would never advance.
Under his breath he gathered his energies.

Geller sped backwards to the edge of the mat and gesticulated. Toban's eyes went wide. Before the old master could stop him the boy completed his spell. Hanti sped toward him, fist ready to connect when he simply called to her "My friend, please don't strike me again."

At the words the power of the universe flowed over Hanti and clouded her mind. "What? No, of course not. I'm so sorry Geller; grandfather says we should fight so I attack but I'll stop if you'd like." Toban unleashed his wrath and lambasted the boy who defended himself well but in the end was shunned from the dojo. Hanti, repulsed at his momentary control of her turned her back on their friendship as well.

Geller was all alone in a large world. Somewhere inside he felt a true remorse for his actions and decided to do what he could to end such injustice elsewhere. He finally understood the teachings of Irori but too late. Now he would live with his chosen path and walk it in all ways.

So there's ways to do it and even make it compelling. You just have to be willing to accept it.


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It's been this gamers PERSONAL EXPERIENCE that the players at the table that take the stance of " I built what I built" and have no story reasons backing it are usually the lame ducks at the table.


I'll be honest: I have to compromise a lot.

I start with an oddball concept. Then I have to start sacrificing lil' bits to make it mechanically viable. My general theme has usually been a Small character because of my IRL build. Most campaigns I am a Tier-9 spellcaster, though in the Goblins Modules (thank you Paizo!) I ended up experimenting with Goblin Gunslinger because I saw the feat first. Buck Acky ended up developing okay though as that oddball playing with boomsticks, hell we even figured out he wasn't evil when he opted not to finish off downed superiors from his position as Sub-Sub-Chief.

I came to terms with the fact that I have Powergamer tendencies just as I love drama and flair in a tabletop RPG. Between the two they come together.

When I transitioned to PF after having been drug over to it from 3.5 by my group as the turn to DM shifted, I made an Eberroni Gnome from Sharn wanting to be a Mystic Theurge. Then we hit the campaign, I began to figure out how PF's mechanics worked, and I had to reclass into an Oracle as the final product, and the DM accomodated the transition to an in-game event (cursing out what may have been the BBEG as my character was having a crisis of purpose led to a direct confrontation and there were consequences -sweet!) that helped it unfold. The backstory was nice, but as the campaign went along, it ceased to define me as I began to identify myself as a Party Member of this misfit group protecting a Princess who more and more stopped being the MVP and dare I say it, a family member.


Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Mark Hoover wrote:
So there's ways to do it and even make it compelling. You just have to be willing to accept it.

Well done! That's the kind of thing I was thinking of. :-)


Ed Reppert wrote:
Been reading these boards for a while, and after all the min-maxing discussions, I have to wonder: does anyone pay any attention to a character's backstory when they're throwing all these things into the mix? How did this Magus come to use ranged weapons instead of melee weapons? How did that Arcanist gain his unarmed combat abilities? And so on. Or is the … character of the character unimportant, and only what he can do matters?

Yes.

Sometimes the character build informs me of what the backstory is. There are times when I create the backstory first, then look for a build that fits it best. Sometimes I have the character all created, but I need to play with him or her for a little while before I gain a sense of a backstory: sometimes the character reveals her backstory to me as I play with him or her.

I can give you examples, if you want.


Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
N. Jolly wrote:

Your question was also very pointed against people who don't feel the need to have a reason for all of these things, which is entirely acceptable. Although really, I got my point across fine with sarcasm.

Seriously, you're asking if someone should have to have a story reason for why they took archery over melee…

I for one just see no reason to type up a massive backstory explaining all of my choices...

If you read "pointed against people" into what I wrote, that's on you.

No, I'm asking if anyone cares about his character's back story. Seems you don't, or at least not much. Okay, fair enough.

There's a lot of stuff in Pathfinder (and other games) subsumed in, for want of a better term, downtime. A second level wizard reaches third level and gains second level spells. How did that happen? Downtime. A halfling becomes a Magus with a powerful staffsling. How did that happen? Well, there's a story, but "downtime" is a legitimate answer as well. When a player reaches a new level, and decides to put a point in a skill for the first time, the "back story" reason is probably that she spent some time studying the skill, or with a teacher — in downtime. "Where did you get that fancy new sword?" "I made it" -- in downtime. That's fine. I suspect most Pathfinder players would find devoting a playing session, or part of one, to downtime boring. That's fine too. I just saw a thing happening — or thought I did — and wondered if what I saw is how most players feel. Apparently some do, some don't. And that's fine too. :-)


Eesh this is getting heated.

A lot of the people I play with me and the other vets assist on their sheets, and it usually us old-timers that go into the game with at least a past in mind, the others are happy to just go with the flow and develop as the story unfolds.

I take it you have become frustrated if not disgusted by Powergamers?

Because if so, a NE Drow Noble Magus Kensai Black Blade claiming a big ole Bastard Sword as originating from one of dem islands in Minata would probably frustrate you to no end. And, for some odd reason... chose Pharasma as a deity.


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If you're asking if anyone cares about the characters' backstories, the resounding answer from my own tables would be "only if Mark's GMing." That isn't a toot of my own horn; it's because I homebrew everything.

See when I'm making stuff up and running it, it has to involve PCs' backstories. If a guy writes a Lamashtan cult into his backstory, he's gotta know that's gonna come up somewhere. However the other GMs in our group all run AP's. To paraphrase a famous animal documentary: APs don't give a s**t!

Seriously. I have a Halfling warpriest in the current Reign of Winter campaign. He took one of the campaign traits and I wrote a whole couple paragraphs on him. Basically he was a hunter, trapper and son of a devout Erastilin ranger. His father had been driven to these lands by an incident with the White Witches but had survived to tell the tale. He was accursed though and died from said curse informing me of the truth (he froze to death before me!)

It was a cool (pun intended), fun and interesting explanation why my character was a warslinger, warpriest, and specifically had the skills, powers and traits he has. It even helps define why I chose the Divine Tactician archetype and why I ride a wolf mount. All of that and I left open some plot hooks for the GM to tie my character into the action of the first book.

We're nearly done with the first book. My character is still referred to as Halfling by the GM. I doubt she even remembers my backstory.

This isn't her fault. APs don't really have a lot of wiggle room to insert you directly into the plot. Not directly anyway. Maybe open-ended stuff like Rise of the Runelords or Kingmaker. I suppose in Reign of Winter it COULD'VE been used in one of the 2 villages of the first book, like as a side quest or a social encounter, but I really don't think it would be very easy.

So in short: caring about your backstory is a luxury afforded by the type of game that hits the table. Since most posters here are concerned with numbers, builds and absolutes, I don't think many post fluff along with said builds. It wouldn't make much difference to the numbers and if a portion of the games out there don't even access said backstories for plot or game material, why bother putting one out there?


Some people really like whole sessions dedicated to downtime. I'm one of them. I always tell people I use the Downtime system from Ultimate Campaign and I love running sessions where all the PCs do is make scrolls and magic items and basically level up.

This is not for everybody.

Because this is not for everybody there's no training rules. Yes, things are subsumed in Downtime. Most everything in this game is an abstraction. If you think about it lots of things happen "offscreen":

- going to the bathroom
- sharpening/oiling weapons
- repairing armor and gear
- cleaning/maintaining homes
- feeding mounts

I'm sure the list goes on. I have two PC spellcasters; one is a wizard, the other a warpriest. Each prepares Mending every day and I make a point to search for spent ammo. Why? Simply because if my GM ever says "you've run out of ammo" I can inform them I've been fixing every last arrow and sling bullet since the game began.

None have ever asked me.

So backstories pre-game or spontaneous skill choices mid game don't bother most folks. If suddenly this is a resource-poor game but with lots of downtime so you have to make the most of the little loot you find, one of your players might suddenly take a rank in a Craft skill to make cheap weapons. The choice is born out of necessity but how do you justify a wizard suddenly picking up a set of hammers and awls and spending hours in front of a forge?

The beauty of the game is: you don't have to, if you don't want to.

Since I ENJOY making up stories, I'd mention to my GM that in the loot we found in that last crypt my wizard found a tome of old smithing techniques. Within this was a Make Whole spell which is one of the 2 new spells I'm gaining this level, so that explains how I know that spell now. Rather than casting the tome aside however I studied it.

The mundane techniques are supposed to help put one in a meditative state. Written from the point of view of a dwarven wizard the book details breathing rituals, formulae for different melting and forging heats and the supernatural properties of different types of fuels. As a step-by-step guide to mundane forging it justifies my Craft: Weapons skill as I work alongside locals over a few days to polish the techniques in the book.

If later I decide to take Craft Magic Arms and Armor as a feat, this book might have some hidden knowledge which further study and practical application have unlocked. Then again, my GM can also use the book against me. What if the weapons forged in such a way are noticed by local dwarves? Turns out the ancient weapon masters hated the author for revealing his techniques to others and they want the book and my work destroyed. Now there's a plot hook just because my guy wanted to take Craft: Weapons.

Then again, it might just be a skill rank assignment.


In recalling the backstories of my Pathfinder characters, I realized that the backstories have their own backstories about why I created that story.

Abu Gorgoni, gnome ranger/monk:

Abu Gorgoni was born in a gnome village in Sanos Forest in Varisia to a large chaotic Desna-worshipping extended family. When he reached his teen years, he was invited to a fun training camp for young gnomes. There, the gnome trainees learned to be ranger guides for human game-hunting tourists. One of the trainers, a monk, noticed that Abu inclined to law and discipline more than most gnomes, and added mediation, martial arts exercise, and two-weapon fighting to Abu's training.

Meeting the tourists excited Abu's interest in the world outside the forest, especially the city of Magnimar. He returned to his family, but told them that he would be wandering the world as worshippers of Desna often do. His family wished him well on his pilgrimage.

On the way to Magnimar, he encounterd a human bard, Florian Fireheart, who was fleeing the angry father of a daughter he seduced. Traveling with Florian for a short time diverted him to the small town of Sandpoint, north of Magnimar.


The backstory of Abu's backstory:

Abu was created as a gnome ranger for Burnt Offering, the first module in the Rise of the Runelords adventure path. My character concept was a young gnome out to see the world. Ranger seemed a good class for that. Sanos Forest was the community of gnomes nearest Sandpoint, the location of the module, so Abu came from there. The Campaign Setting book said that the gnomes of Sanos Forest guarded a secret, but did not reveal that secret. Thus, I invented a backstory by which Abu could be a first-level ranger but have no knowledge of the secrets of Sanos Forest. The camp that trained him kept well away from the secrets.

The encounter with Florian was my wife running a single encounter with Abu and Florian against goblins to practice Pathfinder combat before running the Rise of the Runelords campaign.

Abu was created before the Advanced Players' Guide was published, so the Guide archetype had no influence on his creation. I converted him to that archetype once I purchased the APG.

For sixth level, Abu took a level of monk, ki mystic and four winds archetypes. However, he reached sixth level in the middle of a battle and he wanted to use his monk abilities immediately. My wife the GM allowed that only if I could justify it in his backstory. I added the monk trainer to his backstory and pointed out that as a ranger who slept in his armor and fought with a shortsword, Abu had inadvertently nullified his early monk training. For this particular battle, Abu was dressed in formal clothes for a dinner party, so it was his first combat ever without weapons and armor.

Gaspar, human alchemist:

Gaspar had been an apprentice leatherworker, usually assigned to the smelly work of tanning hides. Then he met an alchemist, a brash man traveling from town to town, usually because he was chased out of town after his frequent accidental explosions. Gaspar was fascinated by alchemy and studied under the alchemist, until the fellow was run out of town again. Gaspar remained, mixing potions in his humble room to sell in the street so that he could earn enough to open his own alchemy shop and telling everyone what a wonder that would be. Unfortunately, his own explosive mishap burning down his boarding house led to his deportation with the city's vagrants to a distant colony.

The backstory of Gaspar's backstory:
I wanted to try out the new Alchemist class. I chose to emphasize how the infusion-brewing alchemists were new, and I gave Gaspar the enthusiasm of an evangelist. His rank in Craft(Leatherworking) was to show that alchemy was so new that he had trained in another profession first, which was his backup trade if he could not find work as an alchemist. My wife designed a wolf-riding cavalier and the two would join the party as a team of buddies who had been hunting partners.

Then in the first session, Richard the GM told us that all our characters had been rounded up as vagrants and shipped off to a distant colony town. That conflicted with my character concept, and with the gold coins in Gaspar's money pouch, but the vagrancy never came up in the game again. In my mind, Gaspar was instead shipped off for being a public danger.

The colony was based on a novel and had no story path beyond being hired by a noble to stop slave traders who had not paid their taxes. Gaspar's determination pushed the story on. He was going to prove the value of alchemy to the world even if he had to do it from the middle of nowhere! And, aided by his friends, he actually pushed so hard against the feudal restrictions in the colony that the party founded a new town in the deeper wilderness, that led to higher-level adventures.

Amaya of Westcrown, human fighter/oracle:
Amaya grew up in an orphanage in Westcrown in Cheliax, trained as a high-class maid or musician. She was beautiful, but so were many of her fellow orphans, because this well-funded orphanage took in the illegitimate children of nobility and gentry. She, however, was the only half-Tien resident.

When she was sixteen, her mother visited. She was from an influential family and had to give up Amaya after unmarried love with a Tien gentleman from Varisia led to pregnancy. Her family would not permit her to reclaim Amaya, but she could sponsor her in a trade. Amaya became a glassblower like her father.

Amaya wrote to her father and the letter yielded an unexpected surprise. Her 13-year-old half-sister ran away from home to see Amaya. Their mutual father was a hard man in a marriage without love, and her sister wanted to see proof that her father had once been in love. Reassured, her sister returned home.

Years later, as an adult, Amaya joined a reform movement against the corruption in Westcrown's government. Such a movement would be viewed as a rebellion, so she trained to fight. Aided by the reformers, a party of adventurers defeated a secret organization with malign influence on the city government, but then the adventurers moved on. Amaya decided that she ought to move on, too, because the reformers had become known to the city and would soon be arrested or assassinated. She secretly sailed to Varisia to help her sister run the glassworks left to her after a goblin raid killed their father.


The backstory to Amaya's backstory:
Amaya was a NPC for the Jade Regent adventure path. The main point of the campaign was to escort the lost heir of the royal Amatatsu family to the land of Minkai on the Tien Xian continent. That heir was Ameiko Kaijitsu of Sandpoint, but her half-sister, Amaya of Westcrown, was an alternative. Her backstory is based on information from two modules, The Bastards of Erebus where she is a background NPC and The Brinewall Legacy which gives her ancestry.

Amaya grew up in an orphanage according to her published backstory. I envision the orphan children all wondering which of them were secretly nobility and whether any would one day reclaim their heritage. Her half-sister Ameiko, in contast, spent most of her life opposing her father's hardhearted ways. She rebelled against the heritage she knew to become her own woman. Thus, Amaya was more interested in following newfound clues to discover her Minkaian legacy.

I count Amaya as my character, a GMPC rather than an NPC, since she was a full party member and leveled up with the party. I built her from scratch, based on Ameiko's attributes but with fighter as her class rather than bard. After the first module, the cleric's player quit due to the birth of his son. Amaya, with bardic levels of charisma, mysteriously gained oracle powers as her legacy awakened. She replaced him as party healer.

Muffin, gnome barbarian:
Muffin was a gnome girl from the Sodden Lands. The endless hurricane called the Eye of Abendego had destroyed civilization in the Sodden Lands, so Muffin was a barbarian out of necessity. Rather than remaining on the flooded land, she boldly signed up with a ship to become a sailor. She loved the sea and sailing, but survival by being tougher than her environment and spitting in the face of opposition was her life, on land or on sea.

The backstory of Muffin's backstory:
I did not create Muffin; instead, I inherited her. My elder daughter created her for a Serpent's Skull campaign. A year and a half ago, my daughter left for Seattle and left Muffin's character sheet with her mother, who played another character in that campaign. Nine months ago, I joined the campaign, but I chose to return Muffin to the game rather than create a fresh character.

My daughter had a strange design for Muffin. The little barbarian was optimized for wilderness survival, not for combat. This matches her backstory. The barbarian class is well suited for this, for its combat effectiveness is mainly from rage and high Constitution for survival adds rounds of rage. She chose Raging Climber and Raging Leaper as rage powers and always maxes Acrobatics, Climb, and Swim skills. The result is a martial character who plays well both in and out of combat in selfless gnomish recklessness.

Muffin is not a tactician, but I am. Her recklessness gives me an excuse for tactics--she charges, unaware that I aimed her at a weak point, and opens a path for the rest of the party by absorbing attacks of opportunity (she has Mobility). It must be barbarian cunning.

A Good Backstory Aids Optimization

A backstory focuses my ideas me to flesh out a character concept. Sure, the numbers might say that a particular trait, feat, skill, or weapon is the best, but my additional math tells me that the best choice is merely 5% better than the alternative. In comparison, good teamwork can make a party 100% better. A good story leads to a character vision that can support and unite the party into a team, so building a character around a story is true optimization.

Let me quote myself from four and a half years ago, in a thread about Abu Gorgoni.

Mathmuse wrote:
Phage wrote:
The problem is that you're trying to play a role that requires support to compensate for your shortcomings (size, strength, etc), but aiming to be self-sufficient.
Actually, I am aiming for my gnome to be support. Rather than trying to optimize my character, I am trying to optimize my team. Instead of going for the best gnome ranger, I am going for the gnome ranger that best serves the party. ... The true measure of my gnome's performance is how much he helps everyone enjoy the game, both GM and players.


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N. Jolly wrote:
I'll get back to you in 3 months once I decide how I can possibly validate placing a skill point into perception in iambic pentameter, possibly with a rhyme scheme inspired by the greatest poets of old.

Iambic pentameter? What kind of new age MMO rollplayer meter is that?!? Back in my day we just had dactylic hexameter and we liked it!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Ed Reppert wrote:
Been reading these boards for a while, and after all the min-maxing discussions, I have to wonder: does anyone pay any attention to a character's backstory when they're throwing all these things into the mix? How did this Magus come to use ranged weapons instead of melee weapons? How did that Arcanist gain his unarmed combat abilities? And so on. Or is the … character of the character unimportant, and only what he can do matters?

The Stormwind fallacy is that if you're focused on the numbers, then you aren't interested in the role playing. That's how your question reads, whether you intended it or not:

I see "all the min-maxing discussions" and I "*have* to wonder: does anyone pay attention to a character's backstory..."

Emphasis mine. That's how people take you question as inflammatory. Again, whether you intended it or not. It's also not on them; it's the limitation of written language.

Anyhow, you see all this min-maxing because it's a rules form and advice forum where people ask about min-maxing, and sometimes how it fits their character.


Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Thank you, Mark and Mathmuse, for those posts. :-)

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

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You can do this thing either way. Sometimes when building a character I have the fluff concept in mind("I want to play a swordsman obsessed with finding his missing sister"), and I select mechanical things to create the vision I already have. Other times I have a mechanical concept in mind("I'd like to try an witch") and I'll create a background to go with the mechanics I've preselected ("This wannabe pirate made a deal with an entity of the sea for power"). Neither way is wrong.

I do always, always pick traits based on their fluff. It's generally one of the last choices I make during character creation before buying equipment. I read over likely traits' fluff and pick entirely on how well they fit my concept. The mechanical bonuses are so minor in general that you are fine with suboptimal choices. (I rarely end up with +2 initiative)

(Not that you're wrong if you base traits on mechanical considerations, this is just how I do it.)

Community Manager

A reminder to keep it civil, and another that not everybody plays the game the same way: some people want backstories, others don't. Find out what works for you and your group.


This thread has some ugliness in it and I cant help but feel a little responsible. I didn't mean to fan the flames. For that I'm sorry.

Moving on! At this point I feel that we've restated the common points of view on the matter we see time and time again when a thread like this pops up. Rather than continue doing that I think we should try to find a way to nip this misconception, and the threads it spawns, in the bud. Sadly, I don't have some flash of insight or burst of creativity right now to think outside of the box. All I've got is 'sticky the stormwind fallacy' and 'signatures linking to characters'... That won't happen here, especially considering that these functions are placed 'behind' our avatars, open to view but hidden nonetheless. Anyone else here who can think of something that might help?


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Look at it this way even in real life some people optimize themselves. How many professional athletes don’t focus entirely on their sport way before they go pro? How many medical school students don’t focus on their grades to get into medical school? If people do this in real life why should they not do this in a game?

Often what happen with people who are only interested in the background story is that the character does not actually match the background. When your background story is you are trying to become the best swordsman in the world I expect you to be a very competent swordsman. Taking feats, traits and skills that allow you to do what you should be is not only good, but should be required.

Also the background of the character is also the responsibility of the GM. As a player you have very little idea of what I have planned for the campaign. How can you work yourself into the story without knowing the story in advance? When a player comes to me with a background so complete and complex that I cannot make changes it makes my job difficult. When I try and fit the character into the story by saying that they did X before the game and they tell me no I did Y it makes it a lot harder. What I really prefer is rough sketch of a background. I want to be able to introduce a NPC that the player knew from before the game started without having to clear it with every player.

What I want from my players are competent characters with a good concept. I don’t want a five page essay on what they did over the summer. Then we can work together to create a better game. Often I will take a minor part of a character and develop it into something major. If you have a reason for everything you really tie my hands.


I got stuck one this in a pair of 3.0 games, working with no time to create a second toon. I copied and used the same everything in both games. In one, all went swimmingly, but the other GM went ballistic that I actually justified a Human taking Humans as his first Favored Enemy! And he actually agreed with my premise! It violated the sacred RAW! He eventually let me have Humans as my second since I was the Reeve's agent and not very effective rooting out petty criminals in a 95% Human district.

Incidentally, both games were intensely role playing oriented and political labyrinths! Much fun and I had to keep charts to follow all the twists, GoT was one GM's favorite books.


People don't usually come to these boards for advice on how to play their character. They do come here to ask how they might want to build their character, for a multitude of reasons.

Me - because I simply don't know all the options available that might help me mechanically realize the character I have in mind to play.


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Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Often what happen with people who are only interested in the background story is that the character does not actually match the background. When your background story is you are trying to become the best swordsman in the world I expect you to be a very competent swordsman. Taking feats, traits and skills that allow you to do what you should be is not only good, but should be required.

Maybe we should write a handbook on how to optimize a character to fit a character concept and background story well. A five-page essay on the character's childhood and coming-of-age adventure does not help. A story why a character learned a particular feat can help.

For example, take my wife's character Ebony Blossom. As the GM, I informed her of the upcoming Jade Regent campaign:

Jade Regent blurb wrote:
When a decades-old secret is exposed, an unassuming local tavern-owner and a close friend of the PCs discovers her birthright is to rule one of the ancient Dragon Empires of Tian Xia—the empire of Minkai. Yet the current ruler of this empire, the mysterious and increasingly cruel Jade Regent, has no intention of giving up his hold over the throne. In order to save Minkai from a would-be tyrant, the PCs must not only escort their friend from Varisia to Tian Xia, braving the frozen horrors of the Crown of the World, but must aid her in gaining the trust and support of a nation on the edge of anarchy.

I also sketched out the beginning adventure hook, that a local gobin tribe had been raiding small caravans using fireworks to startle the guards and horses. Innkeeper Ameiko Kaijitsu was organizing a party to stop the goblin raids.

My wife decided to create a ninja, someone who had come from Minkai and would return there on her adventure. She was already familiar with Ameiko and her deceased father Lonjiku from the Rise of the Runelords campaign, set in the same continuity, and got my agreement that Lonjiku could have asked a Tien contact for the services of a ninja to deal with a problem. The ninja arrived after the problem killed him, because crossing continents took time.

Hence the character concept: Ebony Blossom was a ninja from a land resembling Japan, who had traveled incognito to work as a bodyguard or assassin for a wealthy gentleman. This ninja would be modeled after traditional ninja of Japan, so mundane ninja tricks would be favored over magical ninja tricks, and real-world skills would be favored over the ki pool. She rolled well for stats, and set Str 13, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 12, and Cha 11. Her weapon was a kusarigama (sickle and chain), because that could also be used as a grappling hook for scaling walls. Ebony Blossom would remain incognito by pretending to be a monk. Therefore, her feats included Improved Unarmed Strike and Dodge to mimic monk class abilities, and she hid her leather armor under robes. Her remaining cash went into poisons. Her alignment was Lawful Neutral, but she worshiped Yaezhing, the lawful evil god for assassins.

Thus, the backstory guided the character build. The method is the storytelling principle of "Show Not Tell." In a narrative, showing a character's traits through the character's actions is better than telling those traits in the narrator's voice. In roleplaying backstories, showing is giving mechanical abilities that validate the story.

Next, we check Zenith's Guide to the Ninja to see how poorly Ebony Blossom was optimized. He lists the optimal stats as Dex > Con > Cha > Everything Else. Ebony Blossom has the Dex right, but dumping Charisma would cripple her ki pool later. For feats, Dodge is excellent but Improved Unarmed Strike is not on the list. He mentions shuriken and wakizashi as classic ninja weapons. He recommends against spending resources on poison despite the Poison Use ninja ability.

Yet Zenith also discusses options. For a ninja, Charisma aids only the ki pool and optional social skills, and selection of non-ki ninja tricks reduces the drain on the ki pool. A skill monkey ninja could have Int 14. Ebony Blossom's build has excessive emphasis on Intelligence and wastes a feat, but it is a viable skill monkey ninja.

In practice, Ebony Blossom served superbly as a scout and well in combat against goblins. The kusarigama let her grapple at reach to avoid the attack of opportunity. The swamp and goblin village provided terrain challenges against which she excelled. She could act when many other party members were hindered. My wife also fooled the other players into thinking that she was playing a monk until she declared that Ebony Blossom was covertly applying poison to her weapon. That successful deception let her become party leader before the reveal and enhanced her reputation as a ninja after the reveal. Improved Unarmed Strike, enhanced by Adder Strike at third level, was useful at Brinewall Castle, where the evil lord of the castle demanded a participant for a fistfight.

In addition, the bonus languages from Int 16 let her speak Inner Sea Common, Tien Xia Common, and Minkian dialect. It was handy for versimitude for the rest of the party to have a fluent language teacher on the way to Tien Xia. Being nice to the GM deserves a reward, such as appropriate masterwork weapons in the loot halfway through first level.

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Mathmuse wrote:


Maybe we should write a handbook on how to optimize a character to fit a character concept and background story well.

I like this idea. Also nice story about your wife's character, that's very similar to my character build process, except I rarely check a guide.

(As an aside, it's generally fun to play a sneaky or deceptive character who "fakes" another class. If your player group is mature enough to be okay with being deceived the reveal is generally awesome.)


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Thing is, people don't like being told how to role play. At least, people who still use this system.

I've blended some 5e elements into my games and not been disappointed in the expansion on role playing that I got, but I did it all with Pathfinder stuff. I typically run 3 traits and a drawback, which gives the players an interesting way to role play, but parallel to each other so one character isn't more developed than others.

5e bakes your background and personality right into character creation. You have to do it. That's one of the things that draws some people to the system.

Ultimately, you can play both ways and there are a lot of people who do, but it doesn't get brought up on the internet forums much because usually the discussions being had here are separate from character story, since most people don't need help with that regard.


I can tell you that my hunter's personality is almost exclusively the result of picking Deadeye Bowman as a trait. Suddenly, family man with multiple kids, which impacted stat selection slightly and further molded his personality.

Sometimes it works. Others, it doesn't.


Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Otherwhere wrote:

People don't usually come to these boards for advice on how to play their character. They do come here to ask how they might want to build their character, for a multitude of reasons.

Me - because I simply don't know all the options available that might help me mechanically realize the character I have in mind to play.

There are an awful lot of options. :)


Chess Pwn wrote:

This game is such that some mechanics are better than others. But it makes sense that people doing adventuring would use the best stuff and be trained in the most useful things.

Also, background and personality and stuff is whatever you want it to be and has little to no correlation to min-maxing. So because of that it's not discussed as much on the boards, especially the advice and the rules and general discussion at least.
Optimizers will often think of some story/character and find the mechanics that do the best for it. Some make an awesome character and figure out a backstory to fit.

I start with a back story. It's what directs me to my race, class, skills and feats. I'll min max the best I can with in my framework. This does mean taking some things that no optimal though but make for interesting character.

I've also made many min max mechanical characters for the exercise of it. They tend to be boring to play though but prove my theory crafting. Sometime it works out great other times it seem good on paper only fall flat in game play.


Question feels like a weird one because there's no intrinsic link one way or the other between "min-maxing" and writing backstories, eh.

Also find your choice of questions to be rather strange. "My magus learned to fight using a bow" doesn't really seem like something that needs a particularly involved backstory discussion of why that exists. Not that it can't, it just seems like a weird example to single out.

I suppose to try to answer the odd question, yeah, usually. Sometimes I have a character concept that I build the mechanics upon and sometimes I find a cool class or mechanic and build the character around that.

Though I'm also of the opinion that the fluff attached to mechanics is mutable too. My ranger with a rogue dip didn't necessarily stop her ranger training to learn how to be a thief, it's just a combination that best expresses the character I'm trying to create.


Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
swoosh wrote:
Though I'm also of the opinion that the fluff attached to mechanics is mutable too. My ranger with a rogue dip didn't necessarily stop her ranger training to learn how to be a thief, it's just a combination that best expresses the character I'm trying to create.

This raises an interesting (to me, anyway) question: from the point of view of the character's backstory, what's the difference (trying to keep it simple) between a rogue level 1 then ranger level 1 (and continuing with ranger) progression and a ranger level one then rogue level one progression? One possibility: character "grew up on the streets", was a member of a street gang or similar, thus gained a rank in rogue, then decided he was more interested in rangering (maybe someone took him under his wing) and switched. Going the other way seems harder: he started out as a ranger, but then something (what?) happened, he went rogue long enough to gain a rank, but then switched back to ranger (how did that happen?) Maybe I just lack imagination. Or maybe the problem is that it's 5:30 in the morning and I can't sleep. :-)

A character who gains several ranks in ranger and then dips is even harder to back-story, I think.


While the levels and classes are discrete elements you could see them as parts of a more general focus. For your rogue/ranger this is a guy who lives on the rough side in town or in the wilderness. A level in one or the other is a discrete class/level system modelling a continuous reality.


Serisan wrote:

I can tell you that my hunter's personality is almost exclusively the result of picking Deadeye Bowman as a trait. Suddenly, family man with multiple kids, which impacted stat selection slightly and further molded his personality.

Sometimes it works. Others, it doesn't.

This is one of the things I tell my players: while I'd like a backstory that gives a summary of your whole character, I need at least an explanation of how you ended up with your traits.

More often than not I end with folks playing bullied orphans (Reactionary and some other combat-centric trait) but once in a while I get someone using some real planning. I had one PC that for some reason really wanted to go the Spear Dancer route but also wanted to be a small-sized fighter. He ended up as a Halfling fighter with Performance: Dance through a trait, something "Virtuoso" or something. The fluff of the trait was that they were a wannabe bard but my player didn't like that so he changed it.

This Halfling had been born into a gypsy troop. Since my homebrew has kind of a Romanian theme to it this guy was trained in folk dances, wore big, poofy pants and was bare-chested under his vest. He described it that he used his spear as part of his dance so, even though it's not RAW and infringed a bit on the Bard class I let him use Performance: Dance to sub in for Acrobatics once in a while.

It made for real flavorful play and I got to use the gypsies a couple times in game play as first a foil, then as a contact.

A good backstory doesn't need to be thorough. For my money a decent backstory is suggestive. It helps explain how your character got to now and informs a possible future for this PC.

Just because your have in your backstory that you were the best archer in your village, that doesn't mean the rest of your career is about archery. It only explains your advantage of having an 18 Dex where your fellow villagers had 10-12.

But IMO Traits are something you'll only ever have 2 of (unless you take a feat) and they're specifically drawn from your character's history prior to your first adventure in play so they at least should get some kind of explanation.

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