How to handle the unruly party member?


Advice

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From my character's perspective, he is the party leader, however there is one character in he party who is contradicting everything he does, simply because my alignment is different from his, how should I handle this paladin, who hates my character simply because I am lawful evil?

Even when my ideas could have come from this paladin, he gets everything he can do to stop me because I am evil. We are playing iron God's, he worships serinrea.

Thanks!


do you mean Sarenrae? Also if you do as a paladin of Sarenrae he is already breaking major sarenrae tenets by not giving you a chance and immediately condemning you, one of her biggest tenets is Redemption and forgiveness.

well he is a paladin and you are Lawful evil. the advantage for this is yours.

first off does he in character know you are evil? if this is an out of character thing, i suggest talking about it with your GM in private and tell him or her of the issue.

you have the advantage of getting to play against his honor, as a paladin there are certain things he has to do all you have to do is play smart and make sure that in the process of doing whatever it is your character does that if he does try and stop you he actually has to think about it and decide if acting against you is worth falling or losing paladin status.


He detected evil at some point and found out, so he does in character know that I am evil. And yeah that is the correct God, never been able to spell her name right.

Thank you for the advice, I'm looking forward to using it tonight


Honestly , to me it appears to be a person playing the famous lawful stupid.

Personally i think you should talk to the player and then to the DM , maybe he doesnt understand how a paladin doesnt need to be all about disagreeing with everything someone evil says.

If he insists on being lawful stupid and disrupting your play at every turn , then at that point discuss solutions with the DM.


I even have his character the speech about sarenrae teaming up with asmodaus to stop rovagug, he had me thrown in prison....it is fun and I am enjoying the conflict cause I have never played an evil character, but I need to come to the table preped tonight


Then a very important question is , does your table allow PvP (which doesnt mean direct fighting , but actions to be taken to undermine fellow players)?


Real talk,the spoony one vs Strahd

spoony being the paladin got tricked into helping an incredibly old and evil vampire because not helping him would result in the death of innocent people.

remember subtly and don't let him catch you being breaking the law, he can't legally do anything to you if he doesn't catch you, remind him of that.


PRD wrote:
- "Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good."

Basically, one of you is going to need to swap out your character, or come up with some exceptional (and probably highly contrived) reason to work together. While some groups do enjoy intra-party conflict roleplaying, it is far more common for PvP to result in hard feelings, broken up gaming groups, friendships and even people leaving the game for good.

Sit down with the group, and decide out-of-character if EVERYONE involved (GM is probably most important in this) wants to play with Lawful Good, or Evil, or none of the above. This decision is BINDING, and must be unanimous!


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Roll up a new character. Having good and evil characters is a recipe for disaster. GM should ban evil characters in most APs.


I've already been manipulating people he is trying to get information from to not trust him. We are currently in a city dedicated to Erastil and they kicked my out of the party for one week to do things there way, with help from the village elder, I guess what I'm looking for is a way to kick his ass in an rp sort of way so he will almost be trapped working for me


Schiffer wrote:
... I guess what I'm looking for is a way to kick his ass in an rp sort of way so he will almost be trapped working for me

If you follow that course of action, the logical conclusion is that the paladin smites your character to death.

Proceed at your own risk!


Covent wrote:

First, I seriously recommend sitting down with everyone involved, this means all other players including the cleric, your GM, and yourself and discussing this in a adult manner outside of game.

Asking questions like:

Where is this game going?

What are the goals for this game, for each person?

Are we deliberately heading for a internal conflict?

Is everyone OK with PVP?

If one character kills another does that character become an NPC and does the player need to create a new character?

What is acceptable behavior for characters? (Some games for instance deliberately do not discuss themes such as Racism, The dichotomy of Murder and Killing, or other things some players/GMs do not want to deal with/feel uncomfortable with.)

Basically get a solid statement from all involved about their wants and intentions. If everyone involved is happy with the idea of internal party conflict and PVP then enjoy and good luck.

If not however, it may be best to have a discussion about how you all can compromise and get a cooperative play style you all like.

If some individuals cannot agree then the group may need to split to allow for two different playstyles.

I hope this helps and please understand I am not trying to attack or condemn you, this is simply the best advice I feel I can give you in this situation.

I am quoting this from another thread as I think it applies here. Basically make sure everyone is having fun. If you find yourself the only player with different objectives and are unwilling to compromise as you find the other player's objectives unfun, I would recommend leaving cordially and finding another table that matches you play style. On the other hand if the Player of the paladin is the only person wanting a "good" campaign then it may be time for that player to compromise or leave.

I hope this helps.


Okay let me clear two things up that you guys keep mentioning. Evil character's are allowed, as long as they do not act as a wrench in the parties cogs (which my character as yet to do).

Also I double checked with everyone after the session last week to make sure I wasn't disrupting their fun by "battling" with the paladin and they all enjoyed it and have joined in in most of the conflicts between our character's.

My character wants to work with the party, the problem is that the Saladin doesn't want to work with my character. No one has a problem with this, it isn't hurting the game so no need to worry about that. What I am looking for is a way to manipulate a paladin to my advantage


Fair enough , then what exactly is your class and what can your PC do?


You could find a way to bluff him into committing acts in your favor.


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Reverse psychology. If he opposes everything you suggest, just suggest the opposite of what you want.

Also, if you aren't a divine caster with an aura, you don't detect as evil for another couple levels.


Sorcerer, +12 diplomacy, level 6, destined and impossible bloodline don't have level three spells because of my archtype. Buffing and combat magic.

However, we tend to not use diplomacy one eachother, we find it more interesting to have to actually convince our characters vs making them agree cause I can roll high


Has he ever benefitted from your spells? If he has without resisting them(rolling a saving throw) then there is some rp potential.


More information about the characters and the campaign in general would make giving advice easier.

Some good generic advice is saying something like this to the paladin: "I know you don't like me, but the BBEG is going to destroy the world and we have bigger issues to deal with, so suck it up for now and we can fight after we stop him." That's assuming you have a significant BBEG to deal with, or some other serious kind of threat.


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The critical element here is that the party needs to actually care enough about having you in the party in the first place. You mentioned the party basically kicked you out for a week because they knew you'd screw up their plans with the village elder. This party can very easily just leave town without you, and then you end up just rolling a new character since the party no longer cares to have you.

If the party really doesn't mind you though, and it's mostly just the paladin, the issue is clearly the paladin seems to be on the lawful stupid side of his alignment sadly. Sarenrae as mentioned is very much about redemption and forgiveness. His paladin should be trying to turn you good, not smiting you. The matter of willfully allying with an evil character could be waived by saying you are critical to the success of the party, or simply the paladins mission is to redeem you, and thus he is sticking with you, in addition to whatever the parties greater goals are.

My recommendation, talk to the Paladin player, try to get him to alter his personality to be less "lawful stupid" and more redemption, and forgiveness, and THEN let things play out. They should be much better for all involved.

Otherwise, it's only a matter of time before that Paladin just goes "Smite Evil" and your little sorcerer is a pile of gibs on the floor.


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Oh yay! The fun type of evil has finally graced my virtual doorstep! I had thought that all of you just thought that disagreement=death. OK, so here's what you should do.

1). Talk to the GM. This should be a situation that he has probably planned for somewhat when allowing evil people in the same party as a Paladin, so you've probably got that going for you.

2). Don't listen to these people who say good and evil can't get along. If Sarenrae and Asmodeus can work together, I'm sure you guys can too.

3). Remind him that you have already helped him save people. He has accepted your help before he knew you were evil. Why should that change now? Is it truly such a problem that you don't follow the same moral standards as he does when it leads to the same results? Has he considered that maybe not everyone is willing to just meekly follow what he considers "right" at all times, but can still do the right thing?

4). If none of this succeeds, it's time to respect his wishes. If he doesn't want you to taint the world with your evilness, then don't. Specifically starting with him before every battle. Let the others volunteer to take your buffs regardless, and then point out his hypocrisy if he decides he wants some too. And even if he doesn't, you are now everyone else's friend.

5). Be everyone else's friend. If most people are given a decision between someone with a stick up their ass who doesn't want help and is quite vocal about how you all aren't doing things right, and the person who gives out nice buffs and (seems to) is a swell guy, then guess who'll they'll side with more often than not?


A more complicated roleplaying solution is simply play to the Sarenrae-worshiping side of him. Pretend like you're slowly turning good, keep making comments about how he is making you a better person and you think he will change you.

In other words, lie. Paladins are human (so to speak) and just as susceptible to deception as anybody else.


CampinCarl9127 wrote:

A more complicated roleplaying solution is simply play to the Sarenrae-worshiping side of him. Pretend like you're slowly turning good, keep making comments about how he is making you a better person and you think he will change you.

In other words, lie. Paladins are human (so to speak) and just as susceptible to deception as anybody else.

It's still a Bluff vs Sense Motive check though, and as few skills as a Paladin has, Sense Motive is typically high on the list of things to take.


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The paladin is kind of between a rock and a hard place. Yes a paladin can ally temporarily with a evil character to fight a greater evil. They can also try and redeem the evil character, but they are still bound by the code. If he goes too easy on you he falls and essentially becomes warrior. This is why these things should always be discussed before the first game. Unless your party is currently dealing with a great evil or your character shows some signs of being able to be redeemed the paladin is screwed.

I have not played the adventure path, but from the looks of it, it does not seem like it is focused on a great evil. That being the case his choices are pretty limited. He can either redeem you, leave the party, or fall. All in all not really a good situation. What you really need to do is sit down with the paladin’s player and decide which character is going to stay.


see if you can find Paladin Code for Sarenrae somewhere and get it printed off. It may be on the pathfinder wiki or the srd.
failing that buy the 'Faith's of Purity' it's in there, and probably also in the Inner sea guide: Gods aswel.


Archives of Nethys has the Paladin codes under the deity entries.


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CampinCarl9127 wrote:

A more complicated roleplaying solution is simply play to the Sarenrae-worshiping side of him. Pretend like you're slowly turning good, keep making comments about how he is making you a better person and you think he will change you.

In other words, lie. Paladins are human (so to speak) and just as susceptible to deception as anybody else.

Yeah, he's the one who is interrupting the tabletop gaming dynamic on the grounds of role playing his character. Go ahead and be an arch villain. Gaslight him. Mislead him. Force him into doing what you want because it actually is arguably the good thing to do. "Look, you can object to my looting these people's homes all you want, but while you do, the fire is spreading, and those orphans aren't going to rescue themselves. And this culture will suffer for the loss of its art. I promise you will be rewarded for doing the right thing, and if you don't feel comfortable with this, you can always donate your share to a good charity. I can help you pick one..."


Azten wrote:
Archives of Nethys has the Paladin codes under the deity entries.

Rereading these, the answer is definitely pretty clear: If OP refuses to be redeemed, he will die by the sword. It's in the code.

Paladin Code of Sarenrae:

The paladins of the Dawnflower are fierce warriors, like their goddess. They provide hope to the weak and support to the righteous. Their tenets include the following adages.
I will protect my allies with my life. They are my light and my strength, as I am their light and their strength. We rise together.
I will seek out and destroy the spawn of the Rough Beast. If I cannot defeat them, I will give my life trying. If my life would be wasted in the attempt, I will find allies. If any fall because of my inaction, their deaths lie upon my soul, and I will atone for each.
I am fair to others. I expect nothing for myself but that which I need to survive.
The best battle is a battle I win. If I die, I can no longer fight. I will fight fairly when the fight is fair, and I will strike quickly and without mercy when it is not.
I will redeem the ignorant with my words and my actions. If they will not turn toward the light, I will redeem them by the sword.
I will not abide evil, and will combat it with steel when words are not enough. I do not flinch from my faith, and do not fear embarrassment. My soul cannot be bought for all the stars in the sky.
I will show the less fortunate the light of the Dawnflower. I will live my life as her mortal blade, shining with the light of truth.
Each day is another step toward perfection. I will not turn back into the dark.

I'm altering my siuggestions in light of the Code. OP, someone is going to die or be forced to abandon their character. This won't end well.


There is a villain we are looking for who plans to release a god into the world. Working on stopping that. And my character use to be neutral, the paladin was around at that point.


An evil god*


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A villain is planning to release an evil god into the world.

That should be your entire argument right there.


QuidEst wrote:

Reverse psychology. If he opposes everything you suggest, just suggest the opposite of what you want.

Also, if you aren't a divine caster with an aura, you don't detect as evil for another couple levels.

This. Every bit this.


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Josh-o-Lantern wrote:
QuidEst wrote:

Reverse psychology. If he opposes everything you suggest, just suggest the opposite of what you want.

Also, if you aren't a divine caster with an aura, you don't detect as evil for another couple levels.

This. Every bit this.

Except they're 6th level, so none of that actually.

I agree with Heretek. You can't trick him by pretending to gradually repent. Sarenrae gives you one shot, you don't take it, you get smited. there is no:
"Repent!"
"Well...hmm let me sleep on it a bit"
That won't fly. I think some of you focus too much on the "give them a chance" and are skipping the "one chance before you gut them"

As far as the "Stop me robbing or save the children", okay I'll save the children, but since we're traveling together, I'll know where you'll be later, and you'll either willingly give everything back, or you'll make a posthumous donation.

The real issue though is the one that's spelled out in the core rulebook. Paladin's can't work with evil characters. Yes, yes stopping an evil god, but you can't be like "Okay we need to stop this evil god in 40 years, so we'll just travel together until then" Or even, there has to be a reason why it has to be that character. Couldn't the paladin find a lawful good sorcerer to stop the evil god with?


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Jodokai wrote:
Josh-o-Lantern wrote:
QuidEst wrote:

Reverse psychology. If he opposes everything you suggest, just suggest the opposite of what you want.

Also, if you aren't a divine caster with an aura, you don't detect as evil for another couple levels.

This. Every bit this.
Except they're 6th level, so none of that actually.

None? None at all? level 6 makes you immune to Reverse psychology?


Josh-o-Lantern wrote:


None? None at all? level 6 makes you immune to Reverse psychology?

Thought you were referring to detect evil aura. Sure, if the player is playing a dumb paladin that just blindly opposes everything that might work. It still doesn't change the fact that a paladin shouldn't be traveling with an evil character, let alone an evil character trying to manipulate him.


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Jodokai wrote:
Josh-o-Lantern wrote:


None? None at all? level 6 makes you immune to Reverse psychology?
Thought you were referring to detect evil aura. Sure, if the player is playing a dumb paladin that just blindly opposes everything that might work. It still doesn't change the fact that a paladin shouldn't be traveling with an evil character, let alone an evil character trying to manipulate him.

Wont argue that. If I write evil on a sheet and hear "I'll play a paladin", I reach for the eraser. unless this was a blind character build someone in this group it an ass


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Schiffer wrote:
I've already been manipulating people he is trying to get information from to not trust him. We are currently in a city dedicated to Erastil and they kicked my out of the party for one week to do things there way, with help from the village elder, I guess what I'm looking for is a way to kick his ass in an rp sort of way so he will almost be trapped working for me

They had to kick you out to prevent you from sabotaging their plans. You are the unruly party member. You're also plainly not the party leader because they aren't following you.


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Ammon Knight of Ragathiel wrote:

Real talk,the spoony one vs Strahd

spoony being the paladin got tricked into helping an incredibly old and evil vampire because not helping him would result in the death of innocent people.

remember subtly and don't let him catch you being breaking the law, he can't legally do anything to you if he doesn't catch you, remind him of that.

As lawful evil one shouldn't be breaking the law but abusing the law to their own ends.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Point out your lawful. Don't break the law. Play nice for a while. Don't lie, but use half truths. If he continues to bother you for literally no reason, have the code for a paladin of Sarenrae handy, then when he bothers you for no reason, point out your following the rules. If he continues, see if he's breaking that code in doing so.

I'm not saying trick him into falling. I'm saying mabye look to see if he repeatedly breaks his code (and based on what I read and what I know of Sarenrae, it sounds like not giving you a chance is getting closer to that line


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2ndGenerationCleric wrote:
it sounds like not giving you a chance is getting closer to that line

While I agree the Paladin should be trying to redeem OP, the reality is that if OP shows no signs of redemption, then he will be smited with extreme prejudice. It's right there in the Code "If they will not turn toward the light, I will redeem them by the sword. "

Further, with regards to using the Code against the Paladin...

"I will protect my allies with my life" You could argue that the party, including OP are his allies and he should protect them, not smite them, but considering OP was basically kicked out of the party for an entire week, his status as "ally" is highly subject.
"I am fair to others." Not giving OP a fair shake and being highly judgmental could be an issue, but frankly OP is already trying to piss off the Paladin anyway and attempting to undermine him.
"I will not abide evil, and will combat it with steel when words are not enough." Yea, this and the "redeemed by the sword" part basically mean OP is going to die before this campaign ends.

Atarlost wrote:
They had to kick you out to prevent you from sabotaging their plans. You are the unruly party member. You're also plainly not the party leader because they aren't following you.

Seconding this also. The party should just abandon you at this point.


Heretek wrote:
Azten wrote:
Archives of Nethys has the Paladin codes under the deity entries.

Rereading these, the answer is definitely pretty clear: If OP refuses to be redeemed, he will die by the sword. It's in the code.

** spoiler omitted **

I'm altering my siuggestions in light of the Code. OP, someone is going to die or be forced to abandon their character. This won't end well.

There is a whole lot of great stuff in this Paladin Code you can exploit to make him work with you.

Repeat after me:

"I know you will protect me. I am your ally in this fight against this evil, and you are a good and honorable man, a better man than I. I feel like knowing you is making me a better man, perhaps even a good man someday."


I notice you used to be Neutral(Lawful as well?). Was it your choice or GM fiat that made you evil in the first place? What happened to make you evil? Could the Paladin have stopped you (or the rest of the party) becoming evil, for example? And why have they not suffered alignment drift by association?

Because working with good guys to get rid of a BBEG is Neutral at the very least... have you, or any of the party done anything evil?

OFC if you want to stay evil, good luck with that... I have managed it before, you could always ask GM to get a couple of levels of a class, or a spell cast that means the OP doesn't detect as evil and when people "are looking" be less obviously evil, maybe?


So... the Paladin is doing Paladin things? At least they are not directly smiting you at the first excuse -if they are sabotaging you in character and it is not a Meta conflict, the Paladin is within code -"now can we just get along, children?" is what I'd state as the DM. If you comrades love the interplay and conflict, let it keep running. If you are actively trying to influence lead a Paladin as an Evil PC, then whatever happens, happens. Petulantly, maybe sabotaging an Evil teammate at every check and turn that seems suspect might count as still Fighting the Good Fight.


As always, all paladins are to be considered lawful anal @#$%^ until proven otherwise.

Nothing a few stacks of poison wouldn't cure and getting it to him shouldn't be too hard depending on whether you can.


Josh-o-Lantern wrote:

Wont argue that. If I write evil on a sheet and hear "I'll play a paladin", I reach for the eraser. unless this was a blind character build someone in this group it an ass

Seems like the OP turned evil at some point, but still the question remains - why does the OP you play an evil Charakter in a party with a paladin?


Atarlost wrote:
Schiffer wrote:
I've already been manipulating people he is trying to get information from to not trust him. We are currently in a city dedicated to Erastil and they kicked my out of the party for one week to do things there way, with help from the village elder, I guess what I'm looking for is a way to kick his ass in an rp sort of way so he will almost be trapped working for me

They had to kick you out to prevent you from sabotaging their plans. You are the unruly party member. You're also plainly not the party leader because they aren't following you.

So far we only have heared one side. Hearing from the the rest of the group would be very interesting.

Still the conclusion above seems very obvoius. From my point of view Schiffer might need to rethink his role in the party.


Omnitricks wrote:

As always, all paladins are to be considered lawful anal @#$%^ until proven otherwise.

Nothing a few stacks of poison wouldn't cure and getting it to him shouldn't be too hard depending on whether you can.

Your open mindedness is appreciated :-)


Lawful evil is manipulative.

I would just tell the paladin you need his help turning to good, and that you are his best hope.

Ask him to be your sponsor to becoming good.

You do not have to be telling him the truth or a lie in saying this. Just enough to get him to listen.


Here's your in-game solution.

Bonus points if you set it up to work similarly, too.

Out of game, I'd just take cautions and make sure you and the PC are on the same page; it's okay for inter-party arguments as long as all parties involved (the pun is real) understand (and agree to) the assumed paradigm and aren't getting hurt, emotionally or otherwise, in participation.


Heretek wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
They had to kick you out to prevent you from sabotaging their plans. You are the unruly party member. You're also plainly not the party leader because they aren't following you.
Seconding this also. The party should just abandon you at this point.

I disagree, at least how i read things the party was NOT all on the paladin's side, but split between the two camps, which would mean there is no party leader, and does not necessarily mean the OP was in the wrong (disregarding the fact that popular opinion doesn't decide these things in the first place)

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