Bloodrager, Sorceror, & Dragon Disciple bloodline advancement


Rules Questions


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

If a Bloodrager/Sorceror took a level of Dragon Disciple, would Dragon Disciple advance both the Bloodrager and the Sorceror Bloodline Powers?
To be more explicit, would a Bloodrager 4/Sorceror 1/Dragon Disciple 1 have the effective bloodline powers of a Bloodrager 5/Sorceror 2.

The FAQ answered the question definitively that Dragon Disciple advances the Bloodrager Draconic bloodline here: Advanced Class Guide FAQ

However the ruling did not explicitly state that both non-prestige class bloodlines are advanced.

Here is the relevant text from Dragon Disciple:
A dragon disciple adds his level to his sorcerer levels when determining the powers gained from his bloodline. If the dragon disciple does not have levels of sorcerer, he instead gains bloodline powers of the draconic bloodline, using his dragon disciple level as his sorcerer level to determine the bonuses gained. He must choose a dragon type upon gaining his first level in this class and that type must be the same as his sorcerer type. This ability does not grant bonus spells to a sorcerer unless he possesses spell slots of an appropriate level. Such bonus spells are automatically granted if the sorcerer gains spell slots of the spell's level.


Personally, I think the relevant thing here is this general statement about hybrid classes, such as bloodrager:

Quote:
Parent Classes: Each of the following classes draws upon two classes to form the basis of its theme. While a character can multiclass with these parent classes, doing so usually results in redundant abilities. Such abilities don't stack unless specified. If a class feature allows the character to make a one-time choice (such as a bloodline), that choice must match similar choices made by the parent classes and vice-versa (such as selecting the same bloodline).

And for the bloodrager:

Quote:
If the bloodrager takes levels in another class that grants a bloodline, the bloodlines must be the same type, even if that means that the bloodline of one of the classes must change.

So, basically, how I'm reading these, is that since the bloodline powers do not stack (since stacking is not explicitly specified to happen in quote directly above) and must be of the same type, you only have the bloodline powers based on your highest bloodline class. So it doesn't really matter if the prestige class advances both classes' bloodlines or not, because due to the powers not stacking, your bloodline powers are anyway dictated solely by your highest bloodline class. You do not get any extra benefits in terms of bloodline powers when multiclassing from Bloodrager to Sorcerer.


currently they haven't said anything I'm aware of that if you have two instances of an ability that gets buffed by levels in a prestige class that you have to pick one. As it's worded it'll increase both of them. Now this is of limited value since lots of their abilities overlap and thus wouldn't stack.


bloodlines not stacking means you'll have two separate bloodlines that only interact in that they have to be the same. That is what non-stacking abilities mean.
This means that you have claws when you rage and claws a few times a day, but only the levels that count for bloodrager improve your raging claws and only the levels that count a sorcerer boost your other claws. But you still have both abilities and both claw options.


But isn't your interpretation of non-stacking ability now more like: "The character levels of parent and hybrid class don't stack, when determining some ability X"? While the actual wording in the rules is that the abilities themselves don't stack.

Of course it can just be a poor case of wording in the book, wouldn't be the first time, I guess...Anyway, if you can provide me with some clarification or quote, I would be very thankful, if only to save me from this nagging uncertainty. Not really claiming to be expert in this field, though. That parent class thing just popped out to my mind, when reading the OP, and decided to reply.


Yes, there is a difference between the two classes abilities advancing independently of one another versus stacking together. Indeed, the heavy overlap of the abilities limits their utility.

Now let me throw in another wrinkle:

A crossblooded sorceror selects the draconic bloodline and a different bloodline as her two bloodlines (for the sake of example, Abyssal).

She then takes a level of bloodrager, and selects Abyssal as here bloodline. What happens when she takes a level of Dragon Disciple?


Channel energy doesn't stack. You have separate pools of channel energy each calculated without regards of the other pools. This is the example we have for abilities not stacking.

Also it was clarified that if sneak attack didn't stack you'd have multiple strengths of sneak attack and pick which you were applying when you attacked. Ex. Rogue 3 Slayer 3. You have sneak attack 3d6, if they didn't stack you'd have to choose either your 2d6 rogue sneak attack or your 1d6 slayer.


Yeah, you're right. Just realized it, when I woke up. Should never discuss over rules matters at 3 am, note to self... As this is how it is, I do agree also, that at least by RAW there's nothing stating, that the prestige class would not advance both bloodline powers (or rather, same bloodline powers with different strengths).

I guess there's still some room for interpretation, though, since for example with caster levels from the prestige class you have to explicitly specify the exact class, whose caster level is increased. And there simply wasn't any other class with bloodline powers at the time the prestige class was written, so of course there was no need to rule, whether you had to pick a specific bloodline class level to increase or not. It is strange they did include the answer to this question in the FAQ linked in OP.


Rotund0 wrote:

Yes, there is a difference between the two classes abilities advancing independently of one another versus stacking together. Indeed, the heavy overlap of the abilities limits their utility.

Now let me throw in another wrinkle:

A crossblooded sorceror selects the draconic bloodline and a different bloodline as her two bloodlines (for the sake of example, Abyssal).

She then takes a level of bloodrager, and selects Abyssal as here bloodline. What happens when she takes a level of Dragon Disciple?

This is certainly a good question. I wish I could provide some clear interpretation of RAI, but as it is, I can't. I checked for some other prestige classes, which provide features, that scale by level and are also provided by multiple classes. For example, for the Holy Vindicator, it is very clearly stated, that in terms of channeling energy class feature, the prestige class stacks with any other class, that provides the same feature. I think the same applies for the sneak attacks from prestige classes, also.

Based on those I could perhaps speculate, that the stacking is mainly dictated by the way it affects the balance between the classes. Then it makes sense, that with caster level from prestige class, you can only apply it to one of you caster class, otherwise the benefit would be game-breaking. The sneak attack and channel energy seem to be considered by game designers weaker abilities, and therefore prestige classes are allowed to stack with less restrictions.

For the cross-blooded sorcerer and DD, there has been some discussion before here. I agree on the points made on that discussion, that by RAW, there's nothing preventing you advancing both bloodline when taking DD. Again, RAI can be claimed to be different, because the cross-blooded came after the DD.

So, back to your example: by RAW, all the bloodline powers increase, when taking DD. In this extreme example you could advance three at the same time (Abyssal(Bloodrager), Abyssal(Sorcerer), Draconic(Sorcerer)). My interpretation of RAI is that this would be allowed, if it would not give you any extreme game-balance breaking edge over other classes, but rather would be in par with sneak attack and channel energy. I really do not know, if it is or isn't. I don't think it's any stronger than stacking sneak attack damage or channeling power, but that's only me.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Bloodrager, Sorceror, & Dragon Disciple bloodline advancement All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.