5 Foot Step > Cast > Shift (Su)


Rules Questions


Let's say I have a huge barbarian next to me.

Taking 5 foot step won't solve the issue, I'm still in range. Taking withdraw action works, but I can't do nothing on the turn, I'm small and the barbarian will reach me anyway way on next turn with his charge.

So, can I do the following?

(Miscellaneous Action) 5 foot step > Away from Barbarian's Reach
(Standard Action or 1 Round) Cast a Spell > something to protect me, or stop the Barbarian
(Swift) Shift (Su): At 1st level, you can teleport to a nearby space as a swift action as if using dimension door. This movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity. You must be able to see the space that you are moving into. You cannot take other creatures with you when you use this ability (except for familiars). You can move 5 feet for every two wizard levels you possess (minimum 5 feet). You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.

In my mind this works perfectly. I've read several threads looking for information, but couldn't find anything on what consist the "don't perform any other kind of movement" part from 5 Foot Step.


On the surface it looks kosher...

5ft step = non-action
Cast spell = standard
Shift = swift

Though you may be better served wth:

Shift = swift (no AoO)
Cast spell = standard
Single move = move action


Pathos wrote:

On the surface it looks kosher...

5ft step = non-action
Cast spell = standard
Shift = swift

Though you may be better served wth:

Shift = swift (no AoO)
Cast spell = standard
Single move = move action

Shift works as Dimension Door, you can't take any actions after you have used it.

Liberty's Edge

You'll get some different answers but I believe the general consensus is that teleportation like effects don't follow the normal rules for 5 foot steps. "Movement" in pathfinder has a defined mechanical term involving your movement speeds and such. Which an ability like Shift doesn't use.

When you say "huge" barbarian, you mean he's just big, or is mechanically huge size? I assume the former, since 5 foot stepping wouldn't matter in the latter case most of the time.

Sovereign Court

@Letric: yes, that works. Teleportation effects are generally considered to be something quite else than regular movement.

@Pathos: that doesn't work, not right out of the box. The problem is "as if using dimension door".

Dimension Door wrote:
After using this spell, you can't take any other actions until your next turn.

You can circumvent that with the Dimensional Agility feat, but conservative opinion holds you need to be able to actually cast the "real" dimension door to learn that feat. So wait until level 7 to learn it.


DinosaursOnIce wrote:

You'll get some different answers but I believe the general consensus is that teleportation like effects don't follow the normal rules for 5 foot steps. "Movement" in pathfinder has a defined mechanical term involving your movement speeds and such. Which an ability like Shift doesn't use.

When you say "huge" barbarian, you mean he's just big, or is mechanically huge size? I assume the former, since 5 foot stepping wouldn't matter in the latter case most of the time.

Yeah, I know about the reach, nothing I can do if he's Large except using Shift, casting def or taking the AoO


Ascalaphus wrote:

@Letric: yes, that works. Teleportation effects are generally considered to be something quite else than regular movement.

@Pathos: that doesn't work, not right out of the box. The problem is "as if using dimension door".

Dimension Door wrote:
After using this spell, you can't take any other actions until your next turn.
You can circumvent that with the Dimensional Agility feat, but conservative opinion holds you need to be able to actually cast the "real" dimension door to learn that feat. So wait until level 7 to learn it.

Thanks, wasn't sure about the movement. Just using it as it is seems worth enough for me.


DinosaursOnIce wrote:

You'll get some different answers but I believe the general consensus is that teleportation like effects don't follow the normal rules for 5 foot steps. "Movement" in pathfinder has a defined mechanical term involving your movement speeds and such. Which an ability like Shift doesn't use.

When you say "huge" barbarian, you mean he's just big, or is mechanically huge size? I assume the former, since 5 foot stepping wouldn't matter in the latter case most of the time.

I wouldn't allow it personally.

1) The shift ability expressly calls itself movement.
2) The 5ft step is only permitted if you "don't perform any other kind of movement" and furthermore "you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance."
3) Under move actions "Many nonstandard modes of movement are covered under this category like climbing" which clearly implies that some forms of movement are not encompassed under the Move action heading.
4) Google dictionary definition for movement: an act of changing physical location or position or of having this changed.

Clearly the shift ability is not a move action but it is obviously movement this is supported by it's own text and by other sources including the most common definition for the term movement. Since the 5ft step calls out movement rather than move actions taken I would say it isn't possible.


gnomersy wrote:


I wouldn't allow it personally.

1) The shift ability expressly calls itself movement.
2) The 5ft step is only permitted if you "don't perform any other kind of movement" and furthermore "you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance."
3) Under move actions "Many nonstandard modes of movement are covered under this category like climbing" which clearly implies that some forms of movement are not encompassed under the Move action heading.
4) Google dictionary definition for movement: an act of changing physical location or position or of having this changed.

Clearly the shift ability is not a move action but it is obviously movement this is supported by it's own text and by other sources including the most common definition for the term movement. Since the 5ft step calls out movement rather than move actions taken I would say it isn't possible.

I have counterarugment, but I'm not really good at this:

From SRD
Movement
How many feet you can move with a single move action on your turn. Each square on a battle grid represents 5 feet.

The simplest move action is moving your speed
Many nonstandard modes of movement are covered under this category, including climbing (up to one-quarter of your speed) and swimming (up to one-quarter of your speed).

Both cases of movement, even the ones you refer to (Climbing) refer to YOUR speed.
Your speed is your Base Speed that you have listed on your character sheet.

If going by wording alone, Movement refers to the number of feet I can do with a single move action.
Since Shift is not using any of those feats, I haven't moved, and therefore I should be able to use the 5 ft step


gnomersy, defining game terms using a dictionary doesn't work well.

Movement in Pathfinder as it applies to a 5' step is using an action such as Move, Charge, Run, etc. to move.
Shift is not a type of movement as far as 5' steps are concerned.

Do you move? Yes.
Are you using a movement mode? No.
Does it qualify as movement for the purposes of 5' steps? No.


I think most would agree a wizard could make a 5' step and then cast dimension door or teleport to escape a fight or something. Shift isn't really any different.

To the OP, Dimensiona' Agility feat is definitely worth it just to get so many free shifts per day and not losing your actions. Makes a teleportation specialist very hard to pin down.


Gauss wrote:

gnomersy, defining game terms using a dictionary doesn't work well.

Movement in Pathfinder as it applies to a 5' step is using an action such as Move, Charge, Run, etc. to move.
Shift is not a type of movement as far as 5' steps are concerned.

Do you move? Yes.
Are you using a movement mode? No.
Does it qualify as movement for the purposes of 5' steps? No.

Apparently defining game terms by those terms being used verbatim in other rules doesn't work either by your reasoning.

The shift ability literally calls itself movement that is a fact claiming that somehow movement =/= movement in game terms when both instances are used in rules text is a special brand of insane.

That's highly speculative logic particularly since the rules note that you can move without using the Move "Move action" and that you can move without using a movement speed which you possess for example crawling and jumping. By your logic neither jumping nor crawling provokes attacks of opportunity for leaving threatened squares.

Had the 5ft step rules stated so long as you haven't used your movement speed or used a Move move action it would be a different story but by the rules and basic understanding of English you must be wrong or the paizo devs and editors are incapable of writing rules.


Teleporting abilities do not count as a "move" per the rules with regards to not the rule you are thinking of. "Movement" in shift just refers to a change in locations. The rules in the combat chapter that restricting a "move" refers to something such as walking, flying or swimming with a move speed. Changing location via teleport counts as "movement" just as much as moving your arm to swing a weapon does.

That is why rules say you can "move" up to your speed. Teleport has no speed limits, since speed is not applicable. This is also why you can move and then cast dimension door. Otherwise teleportation abilities would need a special rule.

This working of the rules is common knowledge.


wraithstrike wrote:

Teleporting abilities do not count as a "move" per the rules with regards to not the rule you are thinking of. "Movement" in shift just refers to a change in locations. The rules in the combat chapter that restricting a "move" refers to something such as walking, flying or swimming with a move speed. Changing location via teleport counts as "movement" just as much as moving your arm to swing a weapon does.

That is why rules say you can "move" up to your speed. Teleport has no speed limits, since speed is not applicable. This is also why you can move and then cast dimension door. Otherwise teleportation abilities would need a special rule.

This working of the rules is common knowledge.

Teleportation never uses the word move or movement in its rules text which is why you could 5ft step and use one of those.

Shift is an independent rules entry and does use the word move and movement in its rules text instead of transport or transportation like teleport does as such specific supercedes general and this doesn't work.


gnomersy wrote:


Teleportation never uses the word move or movement in its rules text which is why you could 5ft step and use one of those.

Shift is an independent rules entry and does use the word move and movement in its rules text instead of transport or transportation like teleport does as such specific supercedes general and this doesn't work.

That bolded area is my point.

Shifting is a form of teleportation, just like DD is. It is not a form of "moving" like walking is. Otherwise it would have to have a speed attached to it.

All teleportation is instantaneous. There is no speed or "moving" with regard to location involved.

Quote:
(Swift) Shift (Su): At 1st level, you can teleport to a nearby space as a swift action as if using dimension door
Quote:


Dimension Door
School conjuration (teleportation); Level bard 4, sorcerer/wizard 4
Quote:

Teleportation: A teleportation spell transports one or more creatures or objects a great distance. The most powerful of these spells can cross planar boundaries. Unlike summoning spells, the transportation is (unless otherwise noted) one-way and not dispellable.

Teleportation is instantaneous travel through the Astral Plane. Anything that blocks astral travel also blocks teleportation.

There is nothing in "shift" saying that "unlike normal teleportation shift has a move speed" or "unlike normal teleporation shift counts against the distance you can move.

When they used to the "movement" they are referring to you changing location.

You can't just focus on the word "movement" without context otherwise this will stop you from being able to move since it has movement in the description.

Quote:


Somatic (S): A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.


wraithstrike wrote:


There is nothing in "shift" saying that "unlike normal teleportation shift has a move speed" or "unlike normal teleporation shift counts against the distance you can move.

PRD for Shift - "At 1st level, you can teleport to a nearby space as a swift action as if using dimension door. This movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity. You must be able to see the space that you are moving into. You cannot take other creatures with you when you use this ability (except for familiars). You can move 5 feet for every two wizard levels you possess (minimum 5 feet). You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier."

This movement not this action. Space you are moving into, not space you will be transported to. You can move 5 feet not the range of this ability is 5 feet etc.

It's called movement like 3 times in its rules text this isn't me taking it out of context, per the rules it's movement.

Teleport itself never uses the word move not in the distance you can travel, not in the method by which you are transported to the target location, literally not a single instance of the word move or any variation thereof in the text for Teleport or Dimension Door because if they did it would be movement.

This is a unique ability and as such any rules text in it supercedes the general text from "as if by dimension door." If there is a conflict between the two the rules text from Shift is correct and the rules from Shift says that you are moving, you move, this movement.


gnomersy wrote:


This is a unique ability and as such any rules text in it supercedes the general text from "as if by dimension door." If there is a conflict between the two the rules text from Shift is correct and the rules from Shift says that you are moving, you move, this movement.

I strongly doubt that is the intended interpretation of using the term "move" in this situation. I'd go with the more traditional dimension door interpretation with the caveat that its range and target locations are limited as described. So I'd say a 5 foot step is kosher.


Bill Dunn wrote:

I strongly doubt that is the intended interpretation of using the term "move" in this situation. I'd go with the more traditional dimension door interpretation with the caveat that it's range and target locations are limited as described. So I'd say a 5 foot step is kosher.

I agree. In fact I particularly agree because of the way they FAQ'd courageous weapons which has proven to me that the Paizo editorial staff and Dev team don't write rules that get their point across properly.

But, if you asked me what the rules say, then this is movement and it's not kosher. The OP is always free to talk to his DM about a home ruling on the matter.


gnomersy wrote:
Gauss wrote:

gnomersy, defining game terms using a dictionary doesn't work well.

Movement in Pathfinder as it applies to a 5' step is using an action such as Move, Charge, Run, etc. to move.
Shift is not a type of movement as far as 5' steps are concerned.

Do you move? Yes.
Are you using a movement mode? No.
Does it qualify as movement for the purposes of 5' steps? No.

Apparently defining game terms by those terms being used verbatim in other rules doesn't work either by your reasoning.

The shift ability literally calls itself movement that is a fact claiming that somehow movement =/= movement in game terms when both instances are used in rules text is a special brand of insane.

That's highly speculative logic particularly since the rules note that you can move without using the Move "Move action" and that you can move without using a movement speed which you possess for example crawling and jumping. By your logic neither jumping nor crawling provokes attacks of opportunity for leaving threatened squares.

Had the 5ft step rules stated so long as you haven't used your movement speed or used a Move move action it would be a different story but by the rules and basic understanding of English you must be wrong or the paizo devs and editors are incapable of writing rules.

Are you prepared to use the one phrase "movement" to apply to EVERY element of the rules that in any way references "movement"? Because there are a number of rules elements that are not intended to interact that way.

Example: You are Bull Rushed, that is 'movement'. Are you able to 5' step when it comes to your turn? According to your logic, the answer is no.

CRB p199 wrote:
An enemy being moved by a bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity because of the movement unless you possess the Greater Bull Rush feat.
CRB p189 wrote:
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can’t take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.

It says round, not your turn, so using your logic, if you have movement AT ALL in the round then you cannot use a 5' step.

Hmmm, guess Bull Rushing a target is very powerful in your game.

This is clearly not intended. It is clearly intended to be your movement via your modes of movement, not teleporting. You are mis-applying the rules and not reading the intent.

You must have a very strange game when any movement inflicted upon the target prevents him from 5' stepping if his actions are in the same round (guess he better wait for the next round).

Please note: that was an example to show how absurd your literal definition is. Heck, the world is moving around the sun, how is anyone 5' stepping? According to your definition, they cannot since that too, is movement.

It is very simple, Movement was defined up thread as moving via one of the normal modes of movement. This is further supported by EVERY other reference to 5' step in the combat rules as being movement such as a Move action, Charging, Running, or Withdrawing. It was never intended to cover effects that are teleportation (or otherwise magical relocation) in nature.

However, you will believe as you want, you are clearly in the minority.


From the SRD:

"Movement
How many feet you can move with a single move action on your turn. Each square on a battle grid represents 5 feet."

For the purpose of this specific situation it seem pretty clear that it works just fine.


Gnomersy since you are making the argument that it counts as normal movement does it provoke?

Also if the creature with this ability has more than one form of movement which form of movement does it count against, since double movement would be possible?


wraithstrike wrote:

Gnomersy since you are making the argument that it counts as normal movement does it provoke?

Also if the creature with this ability has more than one form of movement which form of movement does it count against, since double movement would be possible?

To answer the first question obviously not since the rules for Shift tell you "This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity".(Although the fact that they spell it out would seem to be superfluous if this wasn't actually movement.)

As for the second question what do you mean? This is an independent movement as a swift action. Subsequently the character could make their normal move and standard action or double move if they wish to.


Gauss wrote:


Movement in Pathfinder as it applies to a 5' step is using an action such as Move, Charge, Run, etc. to move.
Shift is not a type of movement as far as 5' steps are concerned.

Are you prepared to use the one phrase "movement" to apply to EVERY element of the rules that in any way references "movement"? Because there are a number of rules elements that are not intended to interact that way.

Is your assertion then that neither crawling nor jumping are movement since they don't use a type of your movement?

How about falling?

What about Charge for that matter this is clearly not a movement it's just a full round action in which you move, so why is this movement?


Quote:

Move

The simplest move action is moving your speed. If you take this kind of move action during your turn, you can't also take a 5-foot step.

Many nonstandard modes of movement are covered under this category, including climbing (up to one-quarter of your speed) and swimming (up to one-quarter of your speed).

Accelerated Climbing: You can climb at half your speed as a move action by accepting a –5 penalty on your Climb check.

Crawling: You can crawl 5 feet as a move action. Crawling incurs attacks of opportunity from any attackers who threaten you at any point of your crawl. A crawling character is considered prone and must take a move action to stand up, provoking an attack of opportunity.

Crawling is a subcategory of 'move', which prevents a 5-foot step.

Jumping and charging are variations of standard leg-powered movement and are impacted by your movement speed.

Falling is not movement of this type. Taking a 5-foot does not stop you falling.
Teleportation is also not movement of this type.


gnomersy, what Matthew Downie said.

How is it you got that I said Charging doesn't qualify? It is an action that uses a TYPE OF MOVEMENT. Either standard move speed (legs), flying, swimming, etc.

But, you either failed or chose to not answer my question.

Here is a single line version:
By your ruling, would you prevent a guy who was Bull Rushed from taking a 5' step on his turn in the same round as when he was Bull Rushed?


Gauss wrote:

Here is a single line version:
By your ruling, would you prevent a guy who was Bull Rushed from taking a 5' step on his turn in the same round as when he was Bull Rushed?

My apologies. And yes I would.

Edit: Or rather I would if we all agreed to playing a RAW game.


gnomersy wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

Gnomersy since you are making the argument that it counts as normal movement does it provoke?

Also if the creature with this ability has more than one form of movement which form of movement does it count against, since double movement would be possible?

To answer the first question obviously not since the rules for Shift tell you "This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity".(Although the fact that they spell it out would seem to be superfluous if this wasn't actually movement.)

As for the second question what do you mean? This is an independent movement as a swift action. Subsequently the character could make their normal move and standard action or double move if they wish to.

So does it or does it not count against their total movement for the round, and if so which mode of movement does it count against?


wraithstrike wrote:


So does it or does it not count against their total movement for the round, and if so which mode of movement does it count against?

What is a character's total movement per round? Afaik you can move as far as you can using your actions, in most cases this is two move actions worth. In this character's case it would be two move actions and the swift action to Shift. So this would be added on top.


gnomersy, there is no such thing as a "RAW" game. It cannot exist since the rules are incomplete, confusing, and in some places contradictory. What there is is "RAW" and "what we think RAW is trying to tell us".

Can you take a full-round attack and then as a swift action use the Shift ability?

Answer according to your "RAW" logic: no

CRB p181 wrote:
Full-Round Action: A full-round action consumes all your effort during a round. The only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. You can also perform free actions and swift actions (see below). See Table 8–2 for a list of full-round actions.

This is CLEARLY not the intent. The intent is obviously the regular forms of movement (legs, swimming, flying, etc.), not teleportation.

You are reading "RAW" without considering intent and as a result you are arriving at nonsensical answers.


If I could change the focus here, the Shift ability is supernatural, and hence, relatively quickly and easily used. It does not provoke attacks of opportunity. So, it seems clear you could use a 5'step in conjunction as well. Using a swift supernatural ability is not equivalent to moving at your speed.


I'm with gnomersy. Shift first call itself movement, and then reinforces the point by specifying that does not provoke, witch would be utterly superflous since DD does not.
It's clear to me that Shift was supposed to be more like arcane Dimensional Hop than an actual teleportation spell like DD itself.


Pathos wrote:

On the surface it looks kosher...

5ft step = non-action
Cast spell = standard
Shift = swift

Doesn't work quite as well as you think.

OP has a 'huge barbarian' next to him. That means an opponent with reach is adjacent. Taking a 5' step does not take him out of reach, so casting provokes an AoO unless casting defensively.

Any spell big enough to stop the opponent, or move you out of harm's way is going to be difficult to cast defensively. You have a small chance to successfully cast a spell or you take an AoO that likely will kill you. Unless you got friends who can assist, you are likely hosed.

/cevah


Gauss wrote:

gnomersy, there is no such thing as a "RAW" game. It cannot exist since the rules are incomplete, confusing, and in some places contradictory. What there is is "RAW" and "what we think RAW is trying to tell us".

Can you take a full-round attack and then as a swift action use the Shift ability?

Answer according to your "RAW" logic: no

CRB p181 wrote:
Full-Round Action: A full-round action consumes all your effort during a round. The only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. You can also perform free actions and swift actions (see below). See Table 8–2 for a list of full-round actions.

This is CLEARLY not the intent. The intent is obviously the regular forms of movement (legs, swimming, flying, etc.), not teleportation.

You are reading "RAW" without considering intent and as a result you are arriving at nonsensical answers.

And you are making up lines of rules text to validate your assumed intention of the rules. I'm not saying that you're wrong I'm saying that's not what the rules say if read literally.

Frankly this is one reason that a game should use unambiguous either unique or bolded/italicized words for its keywords and use everything else as flavor text but this isn't something that Paizo does and it does make the game worse.

Furthermore, in reference to your full round action this use of movement is stated to be "during a full-round action" and notes that there is an after the action is taken. In general this would preclude you making a move action to utilize your movement leaving you with only a 5ft step, however it also states you may use swift actions. Shift is a swift action and as such you could use it to move yourself either before or after the full round action but not during it.


gnomersy, you are ignoring the part of your own ruling where you stated that shift is movement and the full-round action rule states that the only movement you can take is a 5-foot step. The fact that Shift is a swift action is not relevant to your ruling.

And no, I am not making up lines of text. I quoted it directly from the rulebook. Others have quoted other sections to clearly indicate what the rulebook intends to be movement in the context of a 5-foot step.

You are ignoring the CONTEXT of the rules.


Gauss wrote:

gnomersy, you are ignoring the part of your own ruling where you stated that shift is movement and the full-round action rule states that the only movement you can take is a 5-foot step. The fact that Shift is a swift action is not relevant to your ruling.

And no, I am not making up lines of text. I quoted it directly from the rulebook. Others have quoted other sections to clearly indicate what the rulebook intends to be movement in the context of a 5-foot step.

You are ignoring the CONTEXT of the rules.

"you can take DURING a full-round" Read your own quoted rules text Gauss


gnomersy, try reading the rest of the quote...it also said BEFORE, during, or AFTER the action.

How are you moving before the full-round action when it says you can only do a 5-foot step?

How are you moving after the full-round action when it says you can only do a 5-foot step?

According to you, Shift is movement and according to that quote you cannot do any movement other than a 5-foot step before, during, or after.

It is clearly not the intent, but according to YOUR ruling you cannot use Shift in combination with a full-round action.


Gauss wrote:

gnomersy, try reading the rest of the quote...it also said BEFORE, during, or AFTER the action.

How are you moving before the full-round action when it says you can only do a 5-foot step?

How are you moving after the full-round action when it says you can only do a 5-foot step?

According to you, Shift is movement and according to that quote you cannot do any movement other than a 5-foot step before, during, or after.

It is clearly not the intent, but according to YOUR ruling you cannot use Shift in combination with a full-round action.

It says your only movement during the action is a 5 ft step now stop. It goes on to say that you can do that before during or after the action stop again. It goes on to say that you can use free or swift actions.

I want to use the full attack action. Stab, Stab, Stab. Full attack is completed. Do I have free actions? Yes. Do I have Swift Actions? Yes. Does the rule tell me I can't move outside of during my full attack action? No. Great let me use Shift to move.


The rule CLEARLY tells you that you cannot do any movement other than a 5-foot step. It tells you when this applies (before, during, or after). So yes, the rule IS telling you you "can't move outside of during your full attack action".

I don't understand how you are misreading this. It is "RAW" as you stated.

I can only surmise that you are ignoring the ramifications of your ruling in order to support your position.

In any case, you are in the minority. Most everyone else understands that the term "movement" is relative to the context in which it is used.


The ruling doesn't make sense.

You say that you can't take 5ft step because Shift is movement in my case, but then you allow a 5ft step, take shift and a full round action in your example.

Ignoring RULES, your logic doesn't make sense between itself.


Letric wrote:

The ruling doesn't make sense.

You say that you can't take 5ft step because Shift is movement in my case, but then you allow a 5ft step, take shift and a full round action in your example.

Ignoring RULES, your logic doesn't make sense between itself.

When did I say I allowed a 5ft step? I full attacked, I could have 5ft stepped and did not. I then shifted.


gnomersy wrote:
Letric wrote:

The ruling doesn't make sense.

You say that you can't take 5ft step because Shift is movement in my case, but then you allow a 5ft step, take shift and a full round action in your example.

Ignoring RULES, your logic doesn't make sense between itself.

When did I say I allowed a 5ft step? I full attacked, I could have 5ft stepped and did not. I then shifted.

My bad.

You can't make a full attack and move. It's written in the rules. According to you Shift is a movement, therefore you couldn't move if you did a full attack.

Your quote:
I want to use the full attack action. Stab, Stab, Stab. Full attack is completed. Do I have free actions? Yes. Do I have Swift Actions? Yes. Does the rule tell me I can't move outside of during my full attack action? No. Great let me use Shift to move.

Your understanding of the rules is wrong. The rules CLEARLY say:

Full-Round Actions

A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can't be coupled with a standard or a move action, though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can take a 5-foot step.

And something supporting my posture:

A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort than a free action. You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action. Swift actions usually involve spellcasting, activating a feat, or the activation of magic items.


wraithstrike wrote:

Teleporting abilities do not count as a "move" per the rules with regards to not the rule you are thinking of. "Movement" in shift just refers to a change in locations. The rules in the combat chapter that restricting a "move" refers to something such as walking, flying or swimming with a move speed. Changing location via teleport counts as "movement" just as much as moving your arm to swing a weapon does.

That is why rules say you can "move" up to your speed. Teleport has no speed limits, since speed is not applicable. This is also why you can move and then cast dimension door. Otherwise teleportation abilities would need a special rule.

This working of the rules is common knowledge.

Can you give any citation or point to any discussion of this? I'm not saying I disagree, but "this is common knowledge" is not a useful citation. I've been playing 3.5 and Pathfinder for close to 10 years, and I've yet to run across this particular "common knowledge". And now that I play mostly in PFS, "everyone knows that" isn't all that helpful to me.

Note that the 5 foot step text says "you can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance"--not that "you can't use any other movement" or "any normal type of movement" or "anything actually called 'movement' in the combat section".

Again, I haven't decided how I'd rule on this, but I don't think it's anywhere near as obvious as many people on this thread do.


Gwen Smith, the other rules provide the needed context. The problem occurs if you are just looking at the 5-foot step rules. Like many rules in Pathfinder you have to look in multiple places to get the full context.

Here is an example:

CRB p181 wrote:

Move Action: A move action allows you to move up to

your speed or perform an action that takes a similar amount of time. See Table 8–2 for other move actions. You can take a move action in place of a standard action. If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move action for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action.

Note how it uses the similar wording "move no actual distance in a round" but then qualifies that as having swapped your ("move") move action for one or more equivalent actions. It is clearly in reference to movement based on the "Move" move action.

Other rules provide further clarification. Basically, EVERY reference to 5-foot step EXCEPT 5-foot step is in relation to movement mode type movement. Not a single one is in relation to moving distance without using some movement mode. ("Move" move actions uses a movement mode, charging uses a movement mode, running uses a movement mode, etc.)

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Removed some posts and their responses. Please be civil to each other, and remember that not everybody plays the game the same way.


Letric wrote:
Letric wrote:


You can't make a full attack and move. It's written in the rules.

Uh, you're wrong. You can take a full-attack and stake a 5-foot step.

The movement with Shift isn't "movement" in the general sense of the word. Movement via tactical movement rules is that which individuals use their speed type to move about under there own muscle power.

Shift isn't any of that.

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