Healing in Hell's Vengeance...


Hell's Vengeance


How easy will it be? Will there be any Archetypes and/or Feats to help with that?

Silver Crusade

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What's stopping Evil characters from preparing Cure spells and using wands?


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Or you could just have an oracle.


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Gorbacz wrote:
What's stopping Evil characters from preparing Cure spells and using wands?

<grumble> Because "healing," to some groups, means having a character dedicated to that as their primary purpose... a "heal-bot."

Zaister wrote:
Or you could just have an oracle.

I'd probably prefer a LN cleric (Abadar would probably work) with Versatile Channeler (and possibly Selective Channeling, as well), to use channeling to heal or harm as needed.


An evil character could be a dedicated healer. He might enjoy the suffering of enemies and 'friends', and he will heal the latter ones only to prolong their suffering. Maybe he will delay his healing a bit, to see the fear in their eyes, or demand money for his services (which is technically neutral but still helps to move away from the classic NG healer). Finally, the healing will give him an excuse not to risk his precious life in direct combat.

But the OP was about mechanics, hmm. Random things coming to my mind:

* Cleric with Versatile Channeler feat
* Witch with healing hex (works even if evil)
* Mesmerist with Psychosomatic Surge trick (doesn't scale well, but can be used in advance)
* Infernal Healing spells (probably most flavorful option)


Just because you're an a$!&$!+, doesn't necessarily mean you want your friends (or associates) to die, especially before they help you to your goal.


Infernal Healing says hello. It's a really solid choice, particularly when packed into a wand.


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mourge40k wrote:
Infernal Healing says hello. It's a really solid choice, particularly when packed into a wand.

Also a pair of Boots of the Earth.


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Evil Oracles can choose "cure" just as easily as "inflict."

So if anyone's super worried or anything...

Cure spells are on the Cleric and Druid lists(Clerics, Oracles, Druids, Hunters...). Oh, and Bards, Inquisitors, Witches. The Healing Hex doesn't even eat up spells per day...

No harder for an evil group than it is for a good party without a cleric or paladin.

Sovereign Court

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Dhampir PCs


* Cleric versatile Channeler Feat; require a Neutral Cleric of a Neutral Deity.

* Evil Clerics, and I think Inquisitors and Warpriests, Channel Negative Energy.

* Dhampir PCs; that, the Necromantic/Negative Energy Affinity Feat, and being Undead all sounds like obvious trap choices there.

I am not saying there are no option, but that they are more limited than usual.

Grand Lodge

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Not really any more limited than a party in any other AP where nobody's playing a cleric. You can get by without one in the party. (And indeed, not all clerics channel positive to begin with.)

With a good number of non-core classes able to learn healing spells and therefore use wands of them, you don't need a cleric to be a successful adventuring party, good or evil.


Arutema wrote:

Not really any more limited than a party in any other AP where nobody's playing a cleric. You can get by without one in the party. (And indeed, not all clerics channel positive to begin with.)

With a good number of non-core classes able to learn healing spells and therefore use wands of them, you don't need a cleric to be a successful adventuring party, good or evil.

FOR THE LOVE OF...

I know there are parties without Clerics, what I am saying is that the "basic" options are more limited than usual.

Liberty's Edge

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What do you mean, the "basic" options are more limited than usual? You can still get wands of cure light wounds or infernal healing, yes? You can still make a versatile channeling cleric, or even an evil oracle of life. Witch is still on the table.

What other healing options are you referring to that aren't still available in this AP?


Deighton Thrane wrote:

What do you mean, the "basic" options are more limited than usual? You can still get wands of cure light wounds or infernal healing, yes? You can still make a versatile channeling cleric, or even an evil oracle of life. Witch is still on the table.

What other healing options are you referring to that aren't still available in this AP?

Core:

* Bard; still there, still have their spells and access to Wands, Scrolls, etc...

* Cleric; still there, but with an additional chalenge, if a Neutral Cleric becomes Evil, Bye bye positive energy channeling and spontaneous Cure spells.

* Druid; still there, but NG is practically a no, and CN could be restricted/restrictive.

* Paladin; ...

* Ranger; spells are late in the game baring wands, scrolls, etc...

More later.


On the other hand, the Psychic classes from Occult Adventure do help with the healing options.


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The Conversion Channel feat is perfect for this adventure path. It lets worshipers of Asmodeus (including anyone willing to convert on the spot) be healed as though by positive energy instead of harmed by negative energy channeled to harm the living. Too bad this feat is not available until 13th level.


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Nutcase Entertainment wrote:


* Druid; still there, but NG is practically a no, and CN could be restricted/restrictive.

Cure spells are not [good] spells. Evil Druids and others can cast them as well as any others.


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And evil Oracles, once again, totally have the option to pick cure spells instead of inflict.

And Witches. And Alchemists. And...

Seriously, the only "basic" healing options off the table are good clerics and Paladins.

I've been in plenty of good-aligned parties without either, and it wasn't the end of the world.

Scarab Sages

Most people have pointed out that except for perhaps Core only parties, the progression of the system has obviated most of the problem.

Also, mechanically speaking, healing in combat is often a suboptimal choice and you should probably just be wanding post scuffle anyway.

It shouldn't be a major problem, all and all.


DominusMegadeus wrote:
Nutcase Entertainment wrote:


* Druid; still there, but NG is practically a no, and CN could be restricted/restrictive.
Cure spells are not [good] spells. Evil Druids and others can cast them as well as any others.

I know, I was just pointing alignment restriction for the Druid, not spell restriction.

Not really a Major problem, but a bit of a Roleplay/Flavour/Fluff problem.


I don't understand how Evil people would have a problem with healing spells.

Do you want to be alive? You should have a source of magical healing. That applies to everyone equally.


Wow, lot of "Too Long; Didn't Read" in this topic.

Some of us are trying to have a civil, intelligent discussion here.

Also, I'm an ESL, so sorry if my writting is a bit hard to read/understand.


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You can be evil and still want to heal your companions.

Evil people are allowed to have friends - they don't have to want to make EVERYONE they meet suffer.

Similarly, even if you're a leader type, there's a significant degree of self-interest in ensuring that your companions are healthy and combat-ready. You're more likely to succeed in your nefarious goals if the people you're working with are in good condition.

Evil isn't always about making other people suffer. Here are a few classic spins:

-Lust, Greed, and Envy: The desire for power is an excellent motivator. An intelligent villain understands that cooperating with people who have similar goals is a good way to acquire more power, and that investing in the team is more likely to get them greater power in the long-term. Basically, "you have to spend money to make money" on a very practical level.

Pride: They like showing off and thoroughly despise the thought of losing. A show of power - buffing their allies - lets them demonstrate this, and healing (probably with a Wand of CLW) helps ensure those allies are in good fighting condition.

Sloth: I'm surprised I'm even out of my house, but if my buddies are in good condition, they can kill stuff faster and with less risk to me. This way, we don't have to work as hard.

Gluttony: I'm going to eat every darn monster we kill, and by golly, I will ensure you guys are capable of killing the things I want to eat.

Wrath: We will kill things. We will be GOOD at killing things. They will fear us because we are deadly, practical, and willing to do whatever is necessary. Sometimes that means helping each other.

-----

For healing, supporting, or anything else traditionally "good", I don't think the options in Hell's Vengeance will be particularly limited. In the end, there are plenty of ways to fluff and flavor things so that they make sense for an evil character to do. You've only got a problem if your character is so focused on short-term evil (Backstab the party because I'm a horrible person! 8D) that they don't stop to consider the advantages of long-term evil (Backstab the King and take over the country! 8D).

And Hell, for what it's worth, is pretty good at long-term evil. XD


I've played in several evil campaigns and healing isn't an issue except for once but that was a poor choice on my account. Who knew bard didn't have cause wounds, I just assumed they did because they have cure wounds spells. We had party of Damphirs and my bard was to be the healer. Yup I could heal just couldn't heal the party.


voska66 wrote:
I've played in several evil campaigns and healing isn't an issue except for once but that was a poor choice on my account. Who knew bard didn't have cause wounds, I just assumed they did because they have cure wounds spells. We had party of Damphirs and my bard was to be the healer. Yup I could heal just couldn't heal the party.

Bard, Druid and Ranger don't get Inflict (x) Wounds, but normally, this isn't a problem.

Dark Archive

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I'm actually really looking forwards to playing a Cleric specifically for this AP, all because of... Conversion Channel. It's so perfectly Asmodean, give people you're about to kill the chance to live and be healed... if only they truly convert to your god. Oh yes, a great thematic ability and ripe with potential for RP if your GM is even slightly willing to entertain it. There may even be things in the AP it works perfectly with, after all, not everyone can be *totally* committed to the cause of good :D

Silver Crusade

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I have played a LN cleric of Asmodeus up to 11 level in PFS.

:
He didn't have one rank in the heal skill. He had plenty of ranks with profession: Barrister. I built up his Charisma so he could selectively channel his negative energy without harming the party. For domains he had Fire and Trickery. The trickery domain gave him access to the bluff skill. He already had access to diplomacy and sense motive as class skills. With a high wisdom and charisma score he served as an excellent "face" for the party always willing to draw up a contract. Of course his speciality was "extra planar" contracts whose payments were in currencies other then the almighty gold piece.

One thing he would do before each mission for the Pathfinder Society was draw up a contract with each party member specifying that they would do their best to keep him from bodily harm and in turn he would do his best to heal them. When asked for healing he would offer his wand of infernal healing. He would point out that while there was a misguided expectation for a cleric to heal the rest of the party, however in the contract that was just signed, there never was any specificity on what kind of healing he had to offer.

He would offer specific spell slots for "sale". For example he would offer to contractually have a restoration memorized for a specific character..... in return for an unspecified favor to be fulfilled in the future. Not a single character went for this generous contractual offer.

I know PFS isn't the Hells Vengence adventure path, but I thought this might be useful for the OP about some ideas of running a cleric in an evil party.


I think the core of this was the idea of Channel Energy being a prime candidate for out of combat healing. Which yes, it's going to be limited if you're an evil cleric.


It's not just evil parties that can have problems with a lack of healing. If you don't have any players wanting to run a cleric or oracle, you could end up with a lack of healing - or even need the rogue to take Use Magic Device to use Cure Light Wounds wands.

Likewise, Bards can provide some healing. It won't be as much as with a cleric. You may very well see parties forced to retreat when the bard runs out of healing magic. Oh well.

I honestly don't think it will be a problem. Plenty of parties forgo clerics these days, what with the expanded list of classes available.


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In the Player Companion Agents of Evil there is a Cleric archetype called the Appeaser.

It has channel negative energy as usual at first level and gains channel positive energy at 5th level (as a cleric four levels lower).


Gorbacz wrote:
What's stopping Evil characters from preparing Cure spells and using wands?

There are some self healing feats or abilities any class can take in the Healing Handbook.

Grand Lodge

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How about a Tiefling Fiendish Vessel archetype Cleric. He must have the alignment of the patron (Mephistophles to me screams perfect choice for this AP), but gets Channel Evil instead of normal channel, which heals evil creatures and harms good creatures automatically, but does 1d4 instead of 1d6 (still, you don't have to chose if you're healing or harming, just be Evil and you'll heal).

You also get a free familiar at 3rd level (imp/cacodaemon/quasit).

If the GM allows it, it's your ticket.

Grand Lodge

ElyasRavenwood wrote:

He would offer specific spell slots for "sale". For example he would offer to contractually have a restoration memorized for a specific character..... in return for an unspecified favor to be fulfilled in the future. Not a single character went for this generous contractual offer.

I know PFS isn't the Hells Vengence adventure path, but I thought this might be useful for the OP about some ideas of running a cleric in an evil party.

This is awesome, if I play that type of character, I'll definitely do something along those lines.

An idea I had that could be flavorful is to write up such contracts in blood-colored fountain pen ink (there are some of those around, obvious choices are Diamine Red Dragon and Diamine Oxblood).


Sorry to necro an older thread but if there was ever a campaign path to do so, this is certainly it! The information listed by some of the posters is valuable to those who have never played in an evil campaign before.

I actually gave a lot of thought about the Fiendish Vessel archetype but had to give it up as our group of players had too many tieflings or other races with no humans in the party. Our wizard and myself (cleric) chose to stick as humans which does make some of the encounters in this campaign slightly easier.

With that said, when death comes (and sure it will at some point), I do have the archetype above as a backup character.

Grand Lodge

Out of curiosity, which deity?


Mangenorn wrote:
Out of curiosity, which deity?

I wasn't sure if you meant what I currently play or what I would consider for a backup character. Currently, I am playing a cleric (Asmodean Advocate) as the group needed a party face. Playing an evil barrister/lawyer is just a bonus! Of course, serving Asmodeus is a requirement for the archetype to answer your question.

The group that I play in spreads healing after combat out (wands, scrolls, etc.) which has helped. I memorize a few cure spells but been relying on Infernal Healing (both by spell and wand). Two other players have 'procured' additional healing but that's another topic.

As for the backup, that's a really good question. I haven't thought it out that far but we just hit level 9 in the current campaign so there's still time to plan it out.

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