Non-Paladin Paladin build?


Advice


Is there such a thing if I want to play a character similar to a paladin ie some kind of divine or arcane abilities, heavy armor/fighter type, but without the slippery slope of morality that the paladin are bound to. I'd rather not have to multi-class but that is an option I suppose.

Are there cleric builds or some other archetypes that could mimic a paladins fighting ability but aren't so morally set in stone?


well yyou can get a couple of paladin abilities from the Chevalier prestige class


Well, if you want to get close, I would personally go for either a Warpriest or Inquisitor myself. Both can be incredible once they start coming online, and the Inquisitor can mimic smiting extremely well using a combination of Judgements and Bane.


How similar are we talking about here?

You just want a heavy fighter with divine/arcane casting or do you also want stuff like smite evil...?

Grand Lodge

Inquisitor

Champion of the Faith Warpriest

Regular Warpriest

Crusader Cleric

Dervish of the Dawn/Dawnflower Dervish Bard

All are casters without the extreme Paladin Code...some not so much Heavy armor but can get by with Medium or Light and a Decent/Good Dex. The Bard for example would have Light armor and a High Dex. He also get Mirror Image to add layer defense instead of relying on plain straight AC.


The Champion of the Faith Warpriest Archetype gets an alignment Smite ability.

The Sanctified Slayer Inquisitor's Study ability is sort of like a Smite.

An Oracle with the Metal or Battle mystery and possibly the Warsighted Archetype is a very easy way to create a powerful heavy melee.

A Crusader Cleric gets the right feats for free, and Domains/Inquisitions allow for things like a Crusader of Gorum with Barbarian Rage.


Nox Aeterna wrote:

How similar are we talking about here?

You just want a heavy fighter with divine/arcane casting or do you also want stuff like smite evil...?

Smite is a cool perk if possible, but mostly looking at the combination of strong fighting plus some spell casting ability.


Then I champion Inquisitor all the way. That class lets you do a little of everything, and have your smashy-smashy face hits too!

Silver Crusade

I'm all the paladin you need.


mourge40k wrote:
Then I champion Inquisitor all the way. That class lets you do a little of everything, and have your smashy-smashy face hits too!

Are the inquisitors teamwork feats wasted if you are in a group that does not use or have any of these feats to play off of?

Grand Lodge

Adagna wrote:
Nox Aeterna wrote:

How similar are we talking about here?

You just want a heavy fighter with divine/arcane casting or do you also want stuff like smite evil...?

Smite is a cool perk if possible, but mostly looking at the combination of strong fighting plus some spell casting ability.

Then let me add to my list

Bloodrager

Magus

Hunter

Shaman

Oracle

Alchemist

Investigator

Ranger

ALL the classes with spells are pretty decent. a few of my favorites:

Primalist Spell Eater Arcane Bloodrager

Whip Focused Magus

Swashigator (1 inspired Blade swashbuckler/ X Emp. Investigator)

Reach Evangelist Cleric

Reach Bard 7/ Dragon Disciple 4

Reach Hunter

Grand Lodge

Adagna wrote:
mourge40k wrote:
Then I champion Inquisitor all the way. That class lets you do a little of everything, and have your smashy-smashy face hits too!
Are the inquisitors teamwork feats wasted if you are in a group that does not use or have any of these feats to play off of?

No it is called Solo Tactics


Inquisitor is powerful and kind of like a flexible paladin. Preacher archetype can swap out the teamwork feats if you're hesitant on those.

Warpriest has fervor which can mimic lay on hands, if you want that, though it's usually more efficient to use it for cure spells rather than the base d6's you get. In any case, easy swift healing.


Adagna wrote:
mourge40k wrote:
Then I champion Inquisitor all the way. That class lets you do a little of everything, and have your smashy-smashy face hits too!
Are the inquisitors teamwork feats wasted if you are in a group that does not use or have any of these feats to play off of?

Not in the slightest. You get the teamwork feat bonuses AS IF they had the teamwork feat (they don't).

That's yet another interesting things about inquisitors - all these feats that you never used because of the coordination required now become viable, if not ideal.

Sovereign Court

I heavy armored Eldritch Knight would be able to do similar or a Dragon Disciple. Go with Still Spell and you have heavy armor. Your level of spell cast with be slowed but so is a paladin's spell progression.


The Sentinel prestige class: a martial agent of their god.


I remember someone brought up a LN Inquisitor of Asmodeus who called himself, in character, a "Paladin of Asmodeus". He used bane to simulate smite and such and focused on combating Chaotic Evils (while supporting Lawful Evil).


Adagna wrote:
without the slippery slope of morality that the paladin are bound to.

Yes, get a good DM and you're there.

Otherwise: Cavalier, Warpriest (Champion of the Faith) and Crusader Cleric are all somewhat close.


Inquisitor and Warpriest are designed for this sort of thing; if you'd like to be charisma based then oracles can also be built as entirely viable martials.


In your case i would go for either a inquisitor or a warpriest OP.

Both should be more than capable of performing what you want.

I would give both a look , then post here if you have ideas of other info on said classes that might help you decide.

Rub-Eta wrote:
Adagna wrote:
without the slippery slope of morality that the paladin are bound to.
Yes, get a good DM and you're there.

I disagree , leaving LG outside , the issue is the code and the code is quite well written right there in the class.

Even if the GM agrees to warn the player before he breaks said code , it lists a damm long list of things you cant do otherwise you fall and it isnt do it twice , it is do it once.

Paladin isnt a class for everyone.


I've done that before back in 3.5.

If you're allowed 3.5 material I highly recommend the Generic Expert class from Unearthed Arcana. Just add two additional feat slots to power it up a bit for Pathfinder.

Then start kit-bashing to your heart's content.

Otherwise take a fallen Paladin and start exchanging (Su) abilities for (Ex) variant abilities.

Alternative Class Features:

Spoiler:

Avenging (Unearthed Arcana, p 58): Gain favored enemy as ranger. Lose lay on hands, remove disease, and turn undead.

Underdark Knight (Complete Champion, p 49): Lose special mount. Gain low-light vision, and a bonus to climb, jump, and balance [so that would be acrobatics now]. At 7th level, gain spike stones. At 12th level gain earth glide. At 15th level gain dimension door. [So don't go that high.] [This could be replaced with the Race Builder now]

Claw of the Sun and the Ankh Substitution Levels (Champions of Valor, p 36):
1st level: Bird of Prey (gain claw attacks), replaces smite evil

Golden Cup Substitution Levels (Champtions of Valor, p 42):
3rd level: Defend the Weak (grant dodge bonus from fighting defensively to adjacent creature), replaces aura of courage

Harmonious Knight Substitution Levels (CV, web): add perform to list of class skills
1st level: Inspire Courage: replaces detect evil [don't take enough skill points in Perform and it remains inactive]

Holy Warrior (Complete Champion, p 49): Lose spellcasting. Gain bonus feats at Level 4, 8, 11, and 14; or use the Spell-less Paladin from Complete Warrior (they have since updated that for Pathfinder but I forget the 3 PP book)

Red Falcon Substitution Levels (CV, p 48): add Knowledge (history)
2nd level: Brilliant Strategy (increase AC by Cha mod for 1 round), Military Knowledge, replaces divine grace

Feats:

Spoiler:

Defender of the Homeland [Forgotten Realms - Champions of Valor] -
+1 sacred AC bonus and immunity to fear effects while fighting for your homeland (so make sure you stay in the area); requires WIS 13

God Touched [General] (Dragon Magazine 305, p.43)
Your deity has recognized your devotion and gifted you with a small spark of divine power.
Prerequisite: Patron deity
Benefit: Once per day, while performing an act related to one of your deity's portfolios, you can call upon your deity as a free action and gain a +1 luck bonus on any one die roll. For example, a character devoted to Moradin (whose portfolios are dwarves, creation, smithing,
engineering, and war) could gain a +1 luck bonus on any attack or damage roll, a Craft check, a Profession (engineer) check, or a Knowledge check relating to dwarves or dwarf history.
Special: You can take this feat only once. The God Touched feat is incompatible with the Disciple of Darkness and Thrall to Demon feats from the Book of Vile Darkness. If you have either of those feats, you cannot take this one, and if you have the God Touched feat, you cannot subsequently take either of those feats. The benefit of this feat cannot be used at the same time as the benefits from the Divine Fervor, Divine Fury, or Divine Fortification feats.

Divine Channeler [General] (Dragon Magazine 305, p.42)
You can channel some divine energy to turn or rebuke undead.
Prerequisite: God Touched, patron deity.
Benefit: Once per day, you can turn or rebuke undead as a cleric of one-half your character level. If you are good-aligned (or a neutral worshiper of a good deity), this feat lets you turn undead. If you are evil-aligned (or a neutral worshiper of an evil deity), it lets you rebuke undead. If you are a neutral worshiper of a neutral deity, you can choose to either turn or rebuke upon taking the feat.
Special: You can take this feat more than once, gaining one extra use per day of the turn or rebuke ability each time.

Then take the Holy Guide archetype
replaces Mercy (Su) with Favored Terrain (Ex)
replaces the Mercy at Level 6 with a teamwork feat

Then take Ritual of Possession to gain the Channel Energy ability (albeit temporarily) [see Rituals of Mortification (Pathfinder - Chronicle of the Righteous, p.46)]

Or just rely on Infernal Contracts and/or becoming a "Paladin of Asmodeus"

Spoiler:

Asmodeus is willing to deal with any god or entity as long as he believes that being will uphold its end of the bargain (Mother of Flies, p.67), which means that he could provide spell-like abilities of spells that are tied to specific deities. The other way he could get around it is through the use of the spell Spellcasting Contract, because there can always be some schmuck from another deity who made a bargain with Asmodeus (it would require a Cleric of Asmodeus as an intermediary, or somebody with a really high Use Magic Device skill, but it is doable). Also, religious scholars speculate that paladins of Asmodeus are actually granted powers by another deity (typically Iomedae or Sarenrae) through some complex arrangement with the Prince of Darkness (Mother of Flies, p.66), which means the same could apply here if the contract was carefully worded. Spellcasting Contract works like the spell Imbue Spell Ability, so you could “cast” a 2nd-level arcane spell RAI, but probably not RAW. That would be worth debating with the game designers.

The problem comes down to the fact that these contracts come with a heavy price - your character's soul. The simplest method of breaking a diabolical agreement is to destroy both copies of the contract – one is kept by the mortal upon signing, whereas the other is kept with the devil. If the damned mortal is somehow able to get his hands on the devil's copy, he can free himself from the contract (Hell Unleashed, p.29) Okay, but we have no source that says that you get to keep the bargains you have struck when you manage to break the contract. The idea is to weasel your way out of it through technicalities.

Just an idea.


Has anyone used the Holy Vindicator Prc? I know prestige classes aren´t very popular, but it is a pretty good way to give a martial-oriented cleric an extra melee bite. It has full BAB and 7/10 casting progression, so it should be pretty good both in the combat and the casting departments.


Adagna wrote:

Is there such a thing if I want to play a character similar to a paladin ie some kind of divine or arcane abilities, heavy armor/fighter type, but without the slippery slope of morality that the paladin are bound to. I'd rather not have to multi-class but that is an option I suppose.

Are there cleric builds or some other archetypes that could mimic a paladins fighting ability but aren't so morally set in stone?

Battle Host Occultist - Transmutation Implement and either Abjuration at 2 for more defense or Conjuration at 2 for more heals/support. Take the other school at 10. Heavy armor, some spell casting, a pool of energy for 'Paladin-like' powers, no code at all, and a few bonus combat feats to boot.


Cavalier of the Star + Cleric.

You can maintain your Channel Progression and gain some basic casting abilities. Additionally you can get a decent Chain Challenge with a decent Charisma and can SmiteChallenge for most of the day's encounters.

Scarab Sages

Nox Aeterna wrote:

In your case i would go for either a inquisitor or a warpriest OP.

Both should be more than capable of performing what you want.

I would give both a look , then post here if you have ideas of other info on said classes that might help you decide.

Rub-Eta wrote:
Adagna wrote:
without the slippery slope of morality that the paladin are bound to.
Yes, get a good DM and you're there.

I disagree , leaving LG outside , the issue is the code and the code is quite well written right there in the class.

Even if the GM agrees to warn the player before he breaks said code , it lists a damm long list of things you cant do otherwise you fall and it isnt do it twice , it is do it once.

Paladin isnt a class for everyone.

Some Codes are less restrictive than others.

Torag's Paladin Code wrote:


Paladins of Torag are dedicated to protecting not just the lives but the way of life for those under their charge, and hold the ways of their chosen people as holy, especially when they are the centuries-old works and traditions of an entire race. Their tenets include the following affirmations.

  • My word is my bond. When I give my word formally, I defend my oath to my death. Traps lie in idle banter or thoughtless talk, and so I watch my tongue.
  • I am at all times truthful, honorable, and forthright, but my allegiance is to my people. I will do what is necessary to serve them, including misleading others if need be.
  • I respect the forge, and never sully it with half-hearted work. My creations reflect the depth of my faith, and I will not allow flaws save in direst need.
  • Against my people’s enemies, I will show no mercy. I will not allow their surrender, except when strategy warrants. I will defeat them, yet even in the direst struggle, I will act in a way that brings honor to Torag.
  • Sarenrae's Paladin Code wrote:


    The paladins of the Dawnflower are fierce warriors, like their goddess. They provide hope to the weak and support to the righteous. Their tenets include the following adages.

  • I will protect my allies with my life. They are my light and my strength, as I am their light and their strength. We rise together.
  • I will seek out and destroy the spawn of the Rough Beast. If I cannot defeat them, I will give my life trying. If my life would be wasted in the attempt, I will find allies. If any fall because of my inaction, their deaths lie upon my soul, and I will atone for each.
  • I am fair to others. I expect nothing for myself but that which I need to survive.
  • The best battle is a battle I win. If I die, I can no longer fight. I will fight fairly when the fight is fair, and I will strike quickly and without mercy when it is not.
  • I will redeem the ignorant with my words and my actions. If they will not turn toward the light, I will redeem them by the sword.
  • I will not abide evil, and will combat it with steel when words are not enough. I do not flinch from my faith, and do not fear embarrassment. My soul cannot be bought for all the stars in the sky.
  • I will show the less fortunate the light of the Dawnflower. I will live my life as her mortal blade, shining with the light of truth.
  • Each day is another step toward perfection. I will not turn back into the dark.
  • Grand Lodge

    Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
    The Shaman wrote:
    Has anyone used the Holy Vindicator Prc? I know prestige classes aren´t very popular, but it is a pretty good way to give a martial-oriented cleric an extra melee bite. It has full BAB and 7/10 casting progression, so it should be pretty good both in the combat and the casting departments.

    I have indeed. Kurik melees and casts at a slightly lower capability than a straight fighter or cleric, but he has a lot of nice tricks and ridiculous saves.

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