Dealing With Magus


Advice


I'm DM in a game running roughly 6 people, and two of which just entered in as magus. My other four regulars consist of a rogue, a barbarian, a wizard, and a ranger. Bear in mind that this is my first campaign dealing with magus so I'm still getting acclimated to the class.

Before the maguses entered the mix I was able to run scenarios with single large targets and it proved a decent challenge for my players, but in the last couple of encounters I've run the magus players were able to make short work of the large target enemies doing what seems like a disproportionate amount of damage relative to the rest of the party.

So disproportionate that it's becoming quite clear that my other players aren't enjoying themselves as much because they're being blatantly outclassed in combat. It also doesn't help that one of the magus characters found boots of speed in a random loot drop.

How do I handle this?

From what I can tell, magus is just a powerful class, but I don't necessarily know if I want to arbitrarily give my other players good items and buffs to bring them up to snuff.

I've also realized that magus is most effective against one body as opposed to multiple enemies, but I am definitely the type of DM who prefers one or two large enemies at the end of a dungeon as opposed to hordes of goblins pestering you throughout.

Any advice would be helpful, because at this rate my BBEG is going to have to have like 2000hp for him to be any amount challenging to the maguses, but then he just becomes an annoying grind for my other players.

Liberty's Edge

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My advice is to just get used to BBEGs having minions. But that's more of a 6 player party thing than a magus thing. There's only so much one monster can do to challenge 6 players. You could just as easily have a grapple focused player that single round grapple/pins the enemy while the other 5 hammer down on it.

As for actual magus advice, they tend to do really well in short bursts. So having a larger number of weaker enemies will give the other players a chance to shine, since the magi likely aren't going to go full out on the minions. And having more combats per adventure will help to have them spread out their spellcasting and arcane pool points, instead of having them go all out against a single opponent.

Though there is a limit to what you can do. Eventually they're going to have enough spells to last all day, but the effectiveness of empowered shocking grasp should definitely be lessened by that point as well.

Sovereign Court

Transport them to the elemental plane of Air.


It's very possible for the Magus to come out in bursts of damage, however they cannot keep it up forever. Assuming you have 4+ encounters a day, he'll have to spend his resources wisely so as to not go out in a puff of smoke.

As for the "boss" fights, you may have to change your own style of GMing. Solo boss fights like that can be dramatically short with a good party setup, so there needs to be more of a threat going on than just him/her. The PCs have more actions in a given round than one monster, and a Magus excels at using every action to its fullest.

A few good ideas: make the terrain favorable to him, or at least unfavorable to the party, let there be some sort of "impending doom" in the room that can't be ignored, have some hostages, and toss some extra lower level threats that are just enough to grab the player's attention.

As for some "Magus specific" answers, I'm assuming he does a great deal of elemental damage through his weapon. Give the boss a way to resist/become immune to the element, and the Magus will have to think on his feet a bit. As a Magus player, one of my biggest nightmares is an enemy Cleric/Oracle who knows who I am, and uses Spell Immunity/Greater to name my favorite choices beforehand, and Resist Energy/Communal for some common elements.

I will go ahead and ask, what is it your player is doing that is such a monkey wrench in your blender?


The classic Magus strategy relies on shocking grasp, so toss in lighting immune enemies. Also to keep in mind is spell combat is a full round action, so if the magus can't full-round, then he is in a poor position, but really so is any martial.

Also seriously 6 players, and you are only using 1 big monster? No. Just no. Always include fodder, or even multiple mid-boss type enemies instead of just fodder. 6 players will annihilate a single enemy before it can even act unless it has a leg up on them, like DR they just can't bypass, or really high AC. Spell Penetration isn't a typically taken feat for Magus either, so toss in some decent SR enemies as well to mess with their spell combat/spellstrike.

Also, please inform us exactly what actions the magi are taking to ensure they are playing as they should, and that they aren't doing things they normally would not actually be capable of through poor reading of their mechanics or something.


Heretek wrote:

The classic Magus strategy relies on shocking grasp, so toss in lighting immune enemies. Also to keep in mind is spell combat is a full round action, so if the magus can't full-round, then he is in a poor position, but really so is any martial.

Also seriously 6 players, and you are only using 1 big monster? No. Just no. Always include fodder, or even multiple mid-boss type enemies instead of just fodder. 6 players will annihilate a single enemy before it can even act unless it has a leg up on them, like DR they just can't bypass, or really high AC. Spell Penetration isn't a typically taken feat for Magus either, so toss in some decent SR enemies as well to mess with their spell combat/spellstrike.

Also, please inform us exactly what actions the magi are taking to ensure they are playing as they should, and that they aren't doing things they normally would not actually be capable of through poor reading of their mechanics or something.

I highly doubt that they are running it incorrect. Given that the GM is not familiar with the Magus, the burst damage they can put out is most likely what is causing the concern.

@OP: Back to the basics. 4-5 encounters per day and multiple enemies are what you are probably going to have the best luck with. Having 1 opponent most encounters just means the Magus can nova the enemy down. They probably have at least enough spells to do it once if not twice per encounter if they are remotely optimized. And you have 2...

Tossing on resist/immunity will end up making it feel like you are punishing the players for playing the class. That creates resentment etc. The class isn't the problem really, it is your preference to running one large monster versus a group (which is basically a losing proposition as explained above). It makes it easier on you obviously, but now you are seeing why it doesn't pan out well challenge wise. The more characters you run and the further you deviate from the core assumptions, the more you will see the chinks in some of the logic the game runs on and the mechanics start to fail.


Heretek wrote:
Tossing on resist/immunity will end up making it feel like you are punishing the players for playing the class. That creates resentment etc.

No. It will make it more challenging. You cant expect the same 1st level spell to carry you to 20. And the GM is not going to pamper you either.

It will require him to divert from a typical nova, and turn to either helping his party or coming up with a different approach.


More enemies. More encounters. Give them the advanced template.

Magi are gish killers, but they're squishy. Intelligent enemies are likely to focus them.


Zenogu wrote:
Heretek wrote:
Tossing on resist/immunity will end up making it feel like you are punishing the players for playing the class. That creates resentment etc.

No. It will make it more challenging. You cant expect the same 1st level spell to carry you to 20. And the GM is not going to pamper you either.

It will require him to divert from a typical nova, and turn to either helping his party or coming up with a different approach.

When the answer to the problem is "make them immune to the character's main attack" that is just poor and lazy GMing. There are NUMEROUS ways to lessen their impact which don't amount to "pampering" them. Are you going to keep the barbarian from using Rage and PA, or the rogue from using their SA and skills, or the wizard from using their spells, or the ranger from being able to use their combat style and abilities, because you don't want to "pamper" them?

The magus' are using an extremely common tactic, which their class is based on and intended to use. Making the enemies immune or resistant to just that is plain lazy, especially when there are other more effective ways to deal with the [/i] perceived [/i] problem that don't involve neutering the characters themselves. This is the same issue you run into with any spellcaster, a nova, and the real solution is to make them think about how to use their limited resources. It is quite literally that "simple", you don't make those resources useless. You make them use them, so that way they think about how and when they use them. After a few sessions of encounters and them not having resources they will start holding back and change tactics.


Skylancer4 wrote:
Zenogu wrote:
Heretek wrote:
Tossing on resist/immunity will end up making it feel like you are punishing the players for playing the class. That creates resentment etc.

No. It will make it more challenging. You cant expect the same 1st level spell to carry you to 20. And the GM is not going to pamper you either.

It will require him to divert from a typical nova, and turn to either helping his party or coming up with a different approach.

When the answer to the problem is "make them immune to the character's main attack" that is just poor and lazy GMing. There are NUMEROUS ways to lessen their impact which don't amount to "pampering" them. Are you going to keep the barbarian from using Rage and PA, or the rogue from using their SA and skills, or the wizard from using their spells, or the ranger from being able to use their combat style and abilities, because you don't want to "pamper" them?

You're right, that's lazy. I didn't mean to say to blatantly to counter him. But to give him a run for his money. Other classes will have to deal without their favored ability at some point along the way as well though; Barbarians vs Fatigue, a wizard vs a disruptive anti-mage or Antimagic Field, a Ranger that isn't on home turf, etc. Not everything is going to go the way you want it from level 1 onward.

I recall a particular encounter with a Stone Golem gave me a hard time with my Magus. I had to step back from the fray and help the others who could handle it, and assist in other measures. That wasn't lazy GMing though. More that I was rather ill-equipped and unprepared for that type of opponent (namely, I plucked spells with no saves but allowed SR).

Some enemies eventually get smart though, and Resist Energy and similar spells start to become common later on.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Do I understand correctly that both Magus players focus on dealing massive damage with Shocking Grasp?

Because another approach you could take is inform these players that they're taking a versatile and multifaceted class and treating it like a sledgehammer. That is, they can do plenty of other things they can do with a Magus that are effective and aren't 10d6 electricity damage.

Check this guide for suggestions.


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Kurald Galain wrote:

Do I understand correctly that both Magus players focus on dealing massive damage with Shocking Grasp?

Because another approach you could take is inform these players that they're taking a versatile and multifaceted class and treating it like a sledgehammer. That is, they can do plenty of other things they can do with a Magus that are effective and aren't 10d6 electricity damage.

Check this guide for suggestions.

What character level (and skill level) are the other players? I'd expect an Archer Ranger (for example) or a wizard to excel in a variety of situations, and well-built barbarian to be exceptionally competitive at dealing (and taking) pain.

Is there a chance that (as well as the magi appearing powerful) that the other players are a little weak, exacerbating the perceived issue? Would it be possible for you to post a little info about the character builds involved?


Add more enemies (single enemies are a bad idea anyways) and make sure you have at least 4 encounters a day so that if the magus do use their shocking grasp constantly that they run out by the end of the day.

Lots of weak enemies can really make a difference by screening the BBEG. Sure the magus can one shot enemy of the mooks, but then they've wasted the spell slot on something that didn't really need it. Alternatively, if they focus on the BBEG they will take many AoO getting to him (if you position enemies well at the beginning of combat and give them reach weapons) or will have to slowly fight their way through the mooks to reach the BBEG. This gives other players opportunities to shine.

Also, if its a standard shocking grasp build take a look at their characters. Ask them if they've taken Wayang Spellhunter and the other trait that reduces metamagic cost. If they have, ask them to only take 1 metamagic reducing trait because it's too powerful otherwise.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Banning Waying Spellhunter and Magical Lineage traits is certainly fair.

Also, enemies are hard to engage in melee are absolutely fair game (e.g. because they're huge and make OAs; they fly, go invis, are at range behind a chasm, and so forth). Let's make that mobility count. Of course, depending on their build, this may also be a barrier to the rogue, barbarian, and ranger...

Finally, for intelligent enemies, it is fair tactics to have them make a knowledge check to realize that you're a Magus, and cast protection from electricity spells as a direct countermeasure. Any enemy with sufficient ranks in Knowledge Arcana would know that a lightly armored character with a scimitar is likely a Magus, and that Shocking Grasp is a common tactic for them. This is especially true once the character gets a reputation with bards and they give him the title (e.g.) Lucas Lightningblade.


First of all there are two things going on here. The first is that you have added two extra players to the group. This alone will cause you to have to rethink your tactics. Two players may not seem like that big of a deal but your party’s resources just increased by 50%. By resources I mean actions per round, HP and all the other things players are able to do. This will have a big impact on the game no matter what class the players choose. The game is based on the idea of a party of 4, any variation of that will require adjustment. If instead of gaining two player you had lost two players would you keep throwing the same type of challenges out. What would challenge a party of four will slaughter a party of two.

The second thing you have is the new characters are seemingly more powerful than your existing players. Most of your players are playing classes that do not have to worry about running out of their main resource. Only the wizard really depends on a pool of limited resources. A wizard without spells is basically a commoner with a few tricks. The barbarian does have a limited number of rounds of rage per day, but even without rage they are not useless. The ranger and the rouge are generally effective as long as they have the HP to continue. The magus has two pools of resources he depends on the first being his spells, the second his arcane pool. Once those are gone they become a lot less effective.

You also seem to be unwilling to adjust your play style to account for the changes in the party. With all due respect you have no choice but to adjust your play style. This does not mean you have to completely abandon the idea of the BBEG at the end of the adventure. While you will need to modify that some what you really need to do is to adjust the rest of the adventure. You need more encounters to drain away the resources so that going into the end battle they are low on resources.

You also need to change the nature of the challenges so they have to carefully plan what spell they take. Use challenges that require more than just a shocking grasp to overcome. Most magus spells tend to focus on combat, but they have other spells. Make sure they have some of those spells and create situations where they are needed. Every expeditious retreat or invisibility they memorize is one less shocking grasp they have. The wizard has many if not all these spells so create situations where they need multiple of the same spell. Maybe the who party needs to be invisible to sneak past some challenge.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Here's the thing. A well-played Wizard or Magus will run out of spell slots (or pool points) basically never.

How's that?

How many combats do you have per day? In my experience, the answer is three or four.
How many rounds does a combat last? In my experience, three on average.
So an average adventuring day will have twelve rounds of combat in it, and a hard day may have fifteen. Of course, if your campaign is different, calculate from there.

A fifth level wizard can cast twelve spells per day, other than cantrips. That means that on an average day, he can cast a spell every single round without running out. For a harder day, add a handful of scrolls and one or two Pearls of Power (they're cheap). At levels lower than that, cantrips like Daze are still a viable option, as is a Wand of Magic Missile.

Likewise, a seventh level Magus can cast eleven spells per day, and can spend two pool points on spell recall. So on an average day, he can cast a non-cantrip spell every single round. As before, a few scrolls and pearls will cover for a harder day. The other four of his pool points go to enchanting his weapon every combat, so he's not running out of those either.

Simply put, running casters out of spells is not going to work if they play it smart, or at least not for long. The better approach would be more diverse challenges and intelligent enemy tactics. And, of course, not pitting six characters against just one enemy.

Sczarni

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@Organite

Hello fellow GM!

I have a decent experience in dealing with Magus class as a GM. The class in general brings a lot of "nuke" or "nova" abilities which allow it to shine in combat up to their fullest potential and single boss or monster encounters tend to end poorly against them. I'v had bosses literally 1-shoted from full health, down to minus Constitution in PFS games and it doesn't surprise me anymore what they can do so here is few general and anti-magi tips you can use in your homebrew games.

General Tips:

- Make sure that your players are playing their class properly. Magi tend to have a larger boost in action economy (something which Core Classes don't get so easily) so a single slip-up of allowing them an extra move action can mean life or death against a monster. Several mistakes that I have seen players doing is for example: using multiple swift actions or forgetting to use defensive casting while casting a spell.

- Ban the traits which reduce the metamagic level of spell by 1 if you haven't already (optional). These traits coupled with Intensify spell on Shocking Grasp allow Magi to deal 10d6 damage on level 10 plus other possible bonuses. The 10d6 isn't too much of a problem until it scores a critical hit, which usually ends encounter against BBEG. By banning these traits, you will reduce Magi's power spike on higher levels.

- Study the combat section of CRB. I am dead serious. This will help you to lead proper and more challenging encounters in general. I for example always use Trip or Disarm on AoO when characters encounter a large sized creature. It forces them to waste a round always.

- Do not attempt to counter characters but instead aim for their weaknesses (such as low Reflex Saves). If you are countering their regular tactics, make sure to do so sparingly.

Magi Tips (although they are more general also):

- Push them in combat early. Drop Fireball on characters, set a terrain trap or let your archer minions pepper a single Magi with arrows. If you push them and reduce their hp early, they will waste a round or two to either heal or set-up a defensive spell. Magi on defensive is spending less time attacking and they usually have few defensive spells prepared.

- Use mooks (additional low CR monsters or NPCs). This is the top advice I can give you and the most powerful tool in your arsenal. It's not about giving PC's extra loot, it's what mooks can do. Nine goblins are CR 4 encounter. Completely useless alone, but they can stall and stretch the fight more then you might think. Assign all nine goblins around BBEG and let them Aid Another to AC. You can bump his AC like this up to 18 if all succeed on it. That's pretty damn impressive. Besides the fact that mooks can empower your BBEG, they keep your players happy. Why? Mostly because characters have a lot more to do and that kind of encounter allows everyone on the table to shine as they slaughter through goblins mercilessly round after round.

- Do not use single BBEG encounters. You noticed this already, but it's even worse. It will force you to amp the difficulty of single monster encounters to a point where you might cross the line such as giving all BBEGs immunity to certain spells or making their AC too high. You can somewhat use these encounters if you mix in other effects such as illusions or traps into it. It might give BBEG more time to act.

- Illusions are awesome. Set a Minor Image of a vile devil infront of door and watch your Magi players waste their spells pointlessly. They are also the best defensive spells. Effects like Mirror Image or Displacement can negate attacks completely. Funny enough, they are also the most common defensive spells that Magi use.

- Stretch encounters and time between them. Magi as every class have limited resources per day and by stretching encounters and time between them, they will waste more spells and abilities. Duration of buffs is critical also. Round buffs should last for a single battle, per minute buffs encounter or two, per tens of minute buffs or higher sufficiently for entire dungeon.

That's several tips that came on top of my head at the moment,

Adam


Malag has very solid advice.

One thing I will say on the "time and buffs" aspect is deliberately call out an amount of time it takes between combats. It might be abstract but call it. And call it so that round per level buffs absolutely last only 1 combat and minute per level buffs might only last a couple (depends on how much you separate them). Announce it loudly so players know time is passing and remind them to remove buffs that have elapsed.

Another thing is make sure the magus is making his concentration checks to cast defensively or taking those attacks of opportunity. At low levels that concentration check can be difficult to make, and the failure is losing the spell completely. Not failing to cast it, the spell slot is expended with no effect. If he chooses not to cast defensively then he will risk taking damage.

It's unclear if the attack of opportunity that is provoked while casting would cause him to make a concentration check due to the "injured while casting" thing or not. Technically AoO occur before the thing that provoked, so I'm unsure if it should be run as forcing a concentration check or not.

At the very least you could have an enemy ready attacks for when the magus moves up and starts casting. Hitting him with a readied action while casting will absolutely call for a concentration check, and because of the way damage tends to scale in this game can make it nearly impossible for the magi to successfully cast spells.


- Single element focuses are exploitable. There are spells for resistance, but it should also inform summoning choices. Air elementals for anybody, and demons for evil casters. Native outsiders generally shave a little energy damage off, which adds up.
- Spell resistance is a good alternative. CR appropriate SR cuts that bonus damage in half and ties up some resources. Some races (e.g. Dwarf) can get a bit of SR to occasionally cancel a spell. And then there are Rakshasas, who have CR inappropriate SR and DR, making them very survivable.
- Spell Immunity and Lesser Globe of Invulnerability chew through those low-level shocking grasps.
- High AC hurts the 3/4 BAB guys a bit more, and encourages using those Shocking Grasps as vanilla touch spells.
- Arcane Bloodrager has some mighty fine Magus-hate.
- Play to the strengths of others. Ranger favored enemies are a good one, for instance.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Claxon wrote:


One thing I will say on the "time and buffs" aspect is deliberately call out an amount of time it takes between combats. It might be abstract but call it.

Bear in mind that healing takes time, and that Infernal Healing in particular takes a full minute.

Quote:
It's unclear if the attack of opportunity that is provoked while casting would cause him to make a concentration check due to the "injured while casting" thing or not. Technically AoO occur before the thing that provoked, so I'm unsure if it should be run as forcing a concentration check or not.

Since when? I have never found this the least bit unclear. If you take an AOO for not casting defensively, and you get hurt, you make a concentration check. Enforce this, otherwise there's no point in casting defensively.


Wow thanks for the advice everyone.
I've definitely caught on to the single big enemy issue already.


Just a thought, speak to the group about considering allowing you to use legendary actions. Our group added them and now we can enjoy a dragon fight with out it being a vastly higher CR needing to take out characters one by one. It's actually made the game easier and more satisfying for players.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Organite wrote:

Wow thanks for the advice everyone.

I've definitely caught on to the single big enemy issue already.

It would help us better tailor advice if we had more information.

Nature of campaign? A published module, Adventure Path, or home brew?
Character creation standards?
Class/builds/level/wealth of party?
Item creation/Leadership feat?

The action economy issue and encounters per day have already been dealt with, so that is good general advice. Other than that I would suggest using waves and red herrings.

Smart bosses will throw minions or doubles at the party...when the party is weakened, then the boss will strike.


Rerednaw wrote:

It would help us better tailor advice if we had more information.

Nature of campaign? A published module, Adventure Path, or home brew?
Character creation standards?
Class/builds/level/wealth of party?
Item creation/Leadership feat?

The action economy issue and encounters per day have already been dealt with, so that is good general advice. Other than that I would suggest using waves and red herrings.

Smart bosses will throw minions or doubles at the party...when the party is weakened, then the boss will strike.

I'm running a home brew campaign I built from the ground up. That probably makes it a little harder to give sound advice and it's my first time doing so, so lessons are being learned every session.

Nevertheless, here is my party makeup:
Character creation was standard form and I allowed any stat at or below 10 to be rerolled.
Characters are all level 5 and composed of a Half-Elf Rogue, a Human Cleric of Norgorber, a Half-Elf Warmage (3.5 converted), a Half-Orc Barbarian, a Human Ranger, and a Human Magus.
The average wealth of my players right now is in the neighborhood of 50,000gp.
The Cleric has scribe scroll and no one has leadership since no one is a high enough level.

I previously thought the Warmage was a Magus as well, but I forgot that he converted the class from 3.5

I've had two sessions since I created this thread and the advice so far has already helped balanced things out a bit more.

Grand Lodge

That wealth level is probably another part of it. Standard wealth by level for a 5th level PC is 10,500 gp, double it for a high magic campaign. 50,000 gp instead is a lot of punch-up for the PCs.

On the other hand, if that 50,000 gp is, instead, the total party wealth, it is actually a bit low. But you said average, not total, so...

Example stuff available at 50K that are not available at 10.5K:
Celestial Armor (for the Rogue, 22.4K)
+4 stat items (16K) or 2 +2 items (8K)
+2/+3 weapons, armor, shields, cloaks, rings, etc.


Yea, that WBL is REALLY high. They should have like 10k at lvl 5, not 50k. That's way over what they should have. I could kind of understand this if your party was like only 3 people, but this is simply too much.

50k is somewhere between a lvl 9-10 PC. Think about that for a moment.

Sovereign Court

Sprinkle traps through your dungeons. Not everywhere, that would be ridiculous. But at enough spots that your players will want to search ominous-looking doors, chests, statues and so forth. Let them; don't make the traps too hard to spot or disable, while keeping their damage on the high side. All this will eat up time between encounters, which counts down the magus' buffs.

Misdirection is another good one. Through use of illusions, or even just the main BBEG hiding behind a curtain for the first two rounds of combat, the magus may waste some of his nova potential on a lesser target. He'll catch on after a couple of times, so he won't start every combat with a nova, but rather check out the situation more carefully. Which means you achieve your goal of combats that last a bit longer. And nova magi also hate Mirror Image on enemies...

The obvious avenue to close with the BBEG is most likely a trap. Either literally - if the magus tries to Bladed Dash across he's going to fall into a trapdoor - or tactically; he'll end up surrounded by sneak attackers that he just stepped into the middle of. Either way, he's got to come up with something more clever than going straight for the boss hoping to kill with the first blow.

Evil outsiders are legitimate enemies and tend to have LOTS of elemental immunities and resistances. That slows down magi. They can still kill them but you have to have different tricks for different outsiders. This'll break the Shocking Grasp monotony.

Grand Lodge

Fighting something that eats the Electricity by various means (Protection from Electricity, Resist Energy, natural Immunities) will slow down the magus and force them out of the spotlight for that fight.

A magus Still hates constructs being immune to most magics. This will push the Magus to the back and let the spotlight shine on the other party members.

Also it has been covered but NEVER use a solo BBEG. Most BBEG have minions and action economy is the real issue of 1 vs 4+.

If the BBEG is a Mage then give him a construct minion and a living minion. A construct can fight inside Cloud Kills. The living minion could stick close to the BBEG as a Body Guard fighter type. Actually using stuff that stop/redirect attacks...Snatch arrow, Body Guard, Intercept Charge, Stand Still, Take the Hit and similar feats. Makes it super hard to get to the BBEG and hit him without dealing with the construct and guard first. Then they still need to deal with the BBEG and his defenses/actions in combat.

But 1 vs party will almost never be a real challenge unless he is ridiculously powerful like a dragon way above their CR and requires the main attackers to roll a 15+ to even put a scratch on him while still having to fight Miss chance, Aura, and full attacks. But even old Dragons should have some sort of minions to eat the parties resources along the way.


Kurald Galain wrote:
Claxon wrote:


One thing I will say on the "time and buffs" aspect is deliberately call out an amount of time it takes between combats. It might be abstract but call it.

Bear in mind that healing takes time, and that Infernal Healing in particular takes a full minute.

Quote:
It's unclear if the attack of opportunity that is provoked while casting would cause him to make a concentration check due to the "injured while casting" thing or not. Technically AoO occur before the thing that provoked, so I'm unsure if it should be run as forcing a concentration check or not.

Since when? I have never found this the least bit unclear. If you take an AOO for not casting defensively, and you get hurt, you make a concentration check. Enforce this, otherwise there's no point in casting defensively.

The healing and infernal healing point only further my point of making sure players account for the time elapsed as they adventure. Minutes spent between healing and walking to the next encounter can mean a lot of buffs fall off before the reach the next encounter.

As far as the ambiguity, it's more like a technicality. If you take an AoO for their not casting defensively, they haven't started casting the spell due to the way AoO work. Which means they technically don't need to make a concentration check to cast the spell because they weren't casting the spell when they were damaged. The only way to damage them while casting a spell is to ready an action for "when they start casting" and we know this is possible because it's explicitly called out.

The point in casting defensively is not provoking an AoO and taking damage.

But I definitely have seen situation where a spell caster was much more willing to take the damage from the AoO than risk losing the spell as sometimes it was much more important to get the spell off than avoid the damage.

And the whole problem is technicality. There is an FAQ that clarifies that AoO occur before the thing that provoke them. Which means you can't hit the spell caster as they're casting the spell or while they're casting the spell. You hit them right before. Which doesn't force a concentration check. The ambiguity comes in that in the magic section the injury section about concentration checks seems to imply that it should work. Thus we have a contradiction.


Some ranged tripping enemies can shut down magi as well.
Whips can trip them before they can reach their target.


Claxon wrote:
Kurald Galain wrote:
Claxon wrote:


One thing I will say on the "time and buffs" aspect is deliberately call out an amount of time it takes between combats. It might be abstract but call it.

Bear in mind that healing takes time, and that Infernal Healing in particular takes a full minute.

Quote:
It's unclear if the attack of opportunity that is provoked while casting would cause him to make a concentration check due to the "injured while casting" thing or not. Technically AoO occur before the thing that provoked, so I'm unsure if it should be run as forcing a concentration check or not.

Since when? I have never found this the least bit unclear. If you take an AOO for not casting defensively, and you get hurt, you make a concentration check. Enforce this, otherwise there's no point in casting defensively.

The healing and infernal healing point only further my point of making sure players account for the time elapsed as they adventure. Minutes spent between healing and walking to the next encounter can mean a lot of buffs fall off before the reach the next encounter.

As far as the ambiguity, it's more like a technicality. If you take an AoO for their not casting defensively, they haven't started casting the spell due to the way AoO work. Which means they technically don't need to make a concentration check to cast the spell because they weren't casting the spell when they were damaged. The only way to damage them while casting a spell is to ready an action for "when they start casting" and we know this is possible because it's explicitly called out.

The point in casting defensively is not provoking an AoO and taking damage.

But I definitely have seen situation where a spell caster was much more willing to take the damage from the AoO than risk losing the spell as sometimes it was much more important to get the spell off than avoid the damage.

And the whole problem is technicality. There is an FAQ that clarifies that AoO occur before the thing that provoke...

Concentration, Injury wrote:

Injury

If you take damage while trying to cast a spell, you must make a concentration check with a DC equal to 10 + the damage taken + the level of the spell you're casting. If you fail the check, you lose the spell without effect. The interrupting event strikes during spellcasting if it comes between the time you started and the time you complete a spell (for a spell with a casting time of 1 full round or more) or if it comes in response to your casting the spell (such as an attack of opportunity provoked by the spell or a contingent attack, such as a readied action).

If you are taking continuous damage, such as from an acid arrow or by standing in a lake of lava, half the damage is considered to take place while you are casting a spell. You must make a concentration check with a DC equal to 10 + 1/2 the damage that the continuous source last dealt + the level of the spell you're casting. If the last damage dealt was the last damage that the effect could deal, then the damage is over and does not distract you.

There is no ambiguity, if you eat an AoO for casting a spell, the damage forces the check, per the rules. It literally states as much. The only way that FAQ would change anything is if it explicitly contradicts the bolded statement above. It doesn't, it states the attack happens before the action is resolved not happens.


For something to occasionally use: how about something with an extra move action from the quickness ability?

It shows up on some regular monsters (like quicklings, chokers, and mithral golems, from a light search), and it is a big thing for many mythic characters.

Basically- if you have a player that is a meatgrinder on full attacks...why stick around for their full attacks? I suggest quickness, since it lets you keep your own full attacks.

Pounce is another alternative, but it might be less easy to use at times.


Trick him into picking up the cursed ring of anti magic.


Goddity wrote:
Trick him into picking up the cursed ring of anti magic.

That would be a waste of useful resources. Have the party fighter pick it up so the party can roflstomp any magic based opponents they ever run into.


CampinCarl9127 wrote:
More enemies. More encounters. Give them the advanced template.

This: for any party of more than four.

Quote:
Magi are gish killers, but they're squishy.

LoL

<-- Less squishy than the party fighter and barbarian.

Grand Lodge

Goddity wrote:
Trick him into picking up the cursed ring of anti magic.

Taking away Half of their class is never an answer. Taking abilities from players character is never the right way to go about it as a DM when there are so many other viable options that can still be fun.

I mean would you like a on the spot nerf of your character just because you do damage well? Would you have created the character knowing half of it was going to be trashed by the DM cause he can't "Handle" more than X damage.

No listen to the advice of the people telling you more Enemies to fight the groups action economy and slight buffs to the actual bosses. I would not make it habit to tear down a players character for doing what the class is designed to do.


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Magus is resource dependant like the wizard, he's just more front rank. Given a chance to Nova an enemy they will really stand out.

Longer working day, more encounters, more time between encounters encourages them to conserve resources more and balances them out better.

Plus as mentioned with 6+ players a single Big Bad is going to be in trouble. Unless it's a Heconshire or some other beast with 20+ attacks and a swift spell every round, it just doesn't have the Actions to fight back effectively. Always add fodder

Most of your encounters should have 50% more guys to them in general or just more encounters in general. Use your wandering monster tables mid battle some times ("the sounds of battle have attractd the attention of some wandering monsters").

Magus, Wizard and any spellcaster in general can be kept in line not by trying to hobble the classes but by making certain the players have to consider before they unload.

"Is it worth using the fireball here, what if we need it later, can I get through this fight with just my School x/day powers and cantrips. Do I have enough scrolls/wands for a prolonged day. How long before my buffs run out, maybe I shouldn't have casted them at the dungeon entrance."

This is the kind of thinking your casters should have not
"AOE Burn 'em all down and GO GO GO! Next Room Buffs a wasting"


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Magus is a good class, and as others have said has quite good nova damage. Really though, even at their best they should be putting out damage that is still in the general range of that of the Barbarian and the Ranger. If the Magus is dominating the damage compared to those two classes, then something is wrong.

Either someone is playing incorrectly with the rules, or you have very different levels of optimization. Since your other players are feeling useless, this is something that needs to be figured out and corrected.

Until you know exactly why the difference is so great (assuming it really is) then it is hard to figure out how to correct it.


Try using monster immune to magic like golem Or monster that you just have to beat down also don't give them a time to rest between encounter magus burn through spell and arcane points fast.

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