Initiative, surprise rounds, and ambushes


Rules Questions


My party (all new to tabletop RPGs) has been exploring a dungeon for a few sessions, and every time we go through a door to a room with some sort of opponent(s) in it, they get the drop on us, making a move and/or attack action as soon as we enter the room. This happens literally every time we enter an occupied room. Is this is in line with the Core Rules or has my DM just decided to never give us a chance for initiative before the monsters get something like a surprise round? The monsters are often moving and attacking upon entering the room.

Thanks for the help!


Pathfinder SRD wrote:

When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you're surprised.

Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware.

Determining awareness may call for Perception checks or other checks.

The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.

Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.

You should normally get a perception check before combat begins, to determine if you are surprised at all, and the same is true for your enemies.

If you didn't take a stealth check before entering the room, the monsters should pretty much know that you were outside the door since you didn't try to avoid being detected. They could also have other means of knowing that you were coming, such as an Alarm Spell.

If you enter the room when everyone of you is succesfully stealthing, then there would be no surprise round, since the monsters are as unaware as you.

You should also try to use perception to discern whether or not there is anyone in the room before entering, so that you may act in the surprise round.

An example:

Howard the charming Rogue and his crew of sidekicks have stumbled across a closed door in the famed sunken city of Aldora. Howard, being the handsome and clever gnome he is, suspects that there may be enemies on the other side of the door.

He tells his crew to stay behind as he rolls his higher-than-average stealth for a total of 26, and sneaks up to the door. He places his ear to the door and takes 20 on his perception roll.

His perception check of 32 was enough to beat the stealth check of the 3 enemies on the other side (even with the penalty of five from the door!), and he silently leaves to inform his sidekicks of what he found out.

His sidekicks, who are total dorks by the way, come up with a plan called "run in and kill everything", which is a surprisingly smart plan coming from them, so Howard agrees to it.

They all roll for stealth and rush into the room, armed and ready!

The 3 monsters in the room were all startled. They had all failed their perception rolls and were not aware of Howard or the rest of the crew, so a surprise round happens.

Those who get to act in this Surprise round are Howard and his sidekicks.


When combat starts, everyone should roll initiative and act in that order. A surprise round occures only when not all combatants are aware of combat starting (such as an ambush on sleeping adventurers).
So what your DM is doing: He assumes that all monsters always are aware of you, even before you open the door, and ready to fight.

What you can do is: ask for a Perception check to get aware of/notice the monster inside the room (hearing something behind the door).
Or: At this point it doesn't take a Wizard or even a 10 INT character to figure out that there's monsters in the next room as well. So start prepared and act in-combat when opening the door, roll your initiative, kick down the door, move up to monster and attack (this way you should get the surprise round, unless the monsters noticed you by perceptions checks, all individually). Or don't enter room, just kick down door and back away.


Thanks guys! I am actually the rogue in my group so I found the example story not only helpful, but very amusing. Pretty accurate too. It seems from what you guys have said that it's just a stylistic choice my DM has made - consciously or otherwise - which blows since it's been impossible to actually SNEAK attack anything, flanking sure. I've been stealthing up to doors and "slowly poking my head through the crack as I open it slightly to check for villains," but it hasn't helped in times past. Even if I get a high perception roll he just tells me about the room I see. I think it's an issue I need to break with my DM, because initiative is never rolled until after the monsters have made actions, and yes I do mean actions, like moving across a room, then drawing a weapon, then attacking. Which I'm pretty sure is more than one can do in a surprise round.


Peter Vanderbilt wrote:
Thanks guys! I am actually the rogue in my group so I found the example story not only helpful, but very amusing. Pretty accurate too. It seems from what you guys have said that it's just a stylistic choice my DM has made - consciously or otherwise - which blows since it's been impossible to actually SNEAK attack anything, flanking sure. I've been stealthing up to doors and "slowly poking my head through the crack as I open it slightly to check for villains," but it hasn't helped in times past. Even if I get a high perception roll he just tells me about the room I see. I think it's an issue I need to break with my DM, because initiative is never rolled until after the monsters have made actions, and yes I do mean actions, like moving across a room, then drawing a weapon, then attacking. Which I'm pretty sure is more than one can do in a surprise round.

All of this is true.

It actually sounds like your GM is trying to "win". He may either be cheating to help his monsters "win" or just not aware of the rules (which seems a bit unlikely, especially if any of you players have said anything at all about how one-sided it's been).

Yes, you should be able to sneak and peek, and yes a Stealth check might let you remain hidden while you peek, and yes a Perception check might beat the monster's stealth checks so you might see them. At least some of the time.

No, not every monster should automatically ambush you. Monsters have to live their lives. They eat, sleep, poop, talk to each other, play video games, whatever. They're not just in a state of constant 24/7 hyper-vigilance waiting to pounce on the next adventurer to walk through their door. A few might actually be almost that ready: golems, maybe some mindless undead, creatures that are essentially living traps, that sort of thing. Everything else is living its life and just as likely to be surprised as you are.

That's WHY we have Stealth and Perception.

Your GM needs to stop treating every monster as if they know in advance that you're coming. Unless, of course, they DO know you're coming (spies, invisible scouts, crystal balls, precognition, or some other ability that guarantees that they know you're there). But that kind of thing is usually rare in dungeons.

And yes, you're right, anyone acting in the surprise round gets JUST ONE action. They can move OR they can attack, but rarely both. Note that many monsters and NPCs can charge which allows a move and an attack and can be done in the surprise round. They only need their weapon in hand (of they have have just 1 BAB or higher they can draw the weapon as they charge) and a clear path to the character they want to attack.

Grand Lodge

@DM_Blake: You can only draw a weapon on a normal charge if you don't move more than your normal move distance. Partial charges, then, can only be taken if you have your weapon ready already.


kinevon wrote:
@DM_Blake: You can only draw a weapon on a normal charge if you don't move more than your normal move distance. Partial charges, then, can only be taken if you have your weapon ready already.

Oooh, good catch. I forgot that one. So a surprise round of Charge, Draw, and Attack requires you to have the Quick Draw feat, otherwise you need your weapon in hand.

Scarab Sages

Incidentally in the example, how would they open the door and rush in while stealthing?

Are you counting the surprise the instant they decide to open the door? So the door opener uses his surprise round move to open the, the others use their moves to charge in (if they want to get an attack) or fire in, or run in?

I was wondering because at first I thought opening the door would instantly make everyone in the room aware of you (assuming old heavy stuck doors in dungeons) and thus no surprise at all.


Berti Blackfoot wrote:

Incidentally in the example, how would they open the door and rush in while stealthing?

Are you counting the surprise the instant they decide to open the door? So the door opener uses his surprise round move to open the door, the others use their moves to charge in (if they want to get an attack) or fire in, or run in?

I was wondering because at first I thought opening the door would instantly make everyone in the room aware of you (assuming old heavy stuck doors in dungeons) and thus no surprise at all.

If that were true, then no group would ever get more than one action, total, in the surprise round - whoever goes first casts a spell or charges an enemy or does something and presto! every enemy knows the group is there so the surprise round would end. I mean, if kicking down a door instantly alerts all the guys in the room, so does tossing in a fireball, or smacking one of them in the head with a greatsword, etc.

But, surprise is determined for EVERY combatant - they're either surprised for the WHOLE surprise round or they're not surprised at all. Once this is determined, assuming there IS a surprise round (if everybody on both sides is surprised, nobody can act, so don't do a surprise round), then everyone able to act in the surprise round gets to do their thing, whatever it is, while everyone else remains surprised until all the combatants acting in the surprise round are done doing their surprise thing.

Assuming the heroes in the hall listened and know there are monsters in the room, kicking down the door is not going to surprise the heroes. If those heroes were quiet enough that the monsters didn't hear them, then the door flying in will surprise the heck out of them.

Definitely a case where ALL the heroes act in the surprise round and none of the monsters act.

Of course, there are variations - maybe the monsters heard the heroes in the hall and got prepared, in which case there is no surprise round. Or maybe the heroes didn't listen and don't know for sure that the room has monsters in it, so when they kick down the door, even the heroes might be surprised. And in weird occurrences, maybe only SOME of the heroes or monsters are able to act in the surprise round.


Most parties contain a least a couple walking metal noise generators, making it pretty obvious to monsters that something loud and potentially dangerous is approaching. Sure, Mr. Rogue could go out and scout ahead alone, but most scouty types are a tad too fragile to wish to be so far away from their party.

So instead of trying to surprise the monsters, it's often a good idea to try and also be aware of the upcoming fight. With a decent perception modifier, it should be possible to hear the sounds of foes on the other side of a door before it's opened. On the other hand, it's perfectly reasonable for intelligent and cautious opponents to attempt to ambush intruders by actively being stealthy.

It's actually somewhat reasonable for residents to have a bit of a home court advantage due to their familiarity with the area and being able to lie in wait.

Apart from simply being more cautious in your exploration, there are many magic items and spells which can be of assistance. Remember all those divination spells that rarely get memorized? Yep, it might actually be a good idea to start using them in ambush ridden areas.


Byakko wrote:
Most parties contain a least a couple walking metal noise generators, making it pretty obvious to monsters that something loud and potentially dangerous is approaching.

This is true.

Sometimes there are doors involved. A closed door provides a bigger penalty to the defender's Perception than the penalty from the noisy armor to the wearer's Stealth.

Also, there's usually more than 10' of distance involved which helps the stealthy party not the perceptive monsters.

Sure, in cases with no doors (natural caverns or most outdoor encounters) it's not much help, but when the bad guys are in a dungeon room behind a closed door (as in the scenarios mentioned in this thread), or maybe in a city dwelling or a farm house or whatever, then there is still a decent chance the walking metal noise generator won't give the party away.

I try to remind these players that investing some skill ranks into Stealth isn't a completely bad idea. And when they use it (I definitely give them chances to use their investment) I generally make sure it works and they can be proud that their investment paid dividends.


I've taken to using a "Passive Perception" for the party. My assumption is that as long as something isn't distracting the party, everyone is paying an average amount of attention to everything going on around them. This equates to the whole party effectively "taking 10" on Perception any time they aren't occupied by something else (I have crib sheets for the whole party so I know their skills and saves and such). Of course, a character can specifically state they are going to search/listen/look/whatever around, at which point they'll make a normal roll.

The reason I started doing this was 1) it kinds of made sense, and 2) I hated tipping off the party that something was up by asking them to make a Perception check.

So far, it's been working very well. Probably the single most favorably received house rule I've tried out.

To the OP:

Try listening at the doors before opening them. Buy a small mirror, and use it to peer through the gap under the door before opening them. Have the party use Stealth, or have the Stealthy character scouting ahead of the group a short distance to investigate doors before the party approaches them. You may not get a surprise round yourself, but you can hopefully deny the surprise round to the bad guys.

To DM_Blake:

41% of the armors in Ultimate Equipment have an ACP to Stealth as high or higher than the penalty for a closed door. If you add in a shield, that rises to between 58% and 64%, depending on whether it's a -1 or -2 shield. Hearing a character walking in Chain Mail through a closed door has a modified DC of 10, plus any distance modifier. It's really easy for bad guys to hear the party coming up on the closed door, especially if they're the undisciplined type that have to have a conversation before opening it.


Saldiven wrote:

To DM_Blake:

41% of the armors in Ultimate Equipment have an ACP to Stealth as high or higher than the penalty for a closed door. If you add in a shield, that rises to between 58% and 64%, depending on whether it's a -1 or -2 shield. Hearing a character walking in Chain Mail through a closed door has a modified DC of 10, plus any distance modifier. It's really easy for bad guys to hear the party coming up on the closed door, especially if they're the undisciplined type that have to have a conversation before opening it.

This is true. But Adamantine and Mithral, both common materials by mid-level, reduce that Armor Check Penalty. Heck, even Masterwork (which includes ALL magical armor) reduces the ACP by -1 and is available even at very low levels.


There is actually a possibility for the armored guy to remain undetected, but I find quite often they don't even bother to use stealth in the first place since they assume they'll be heard anyway.

A note about giving the party (and monsters!) a passive "take 10":

In most groups, this actually makes the chance of detection FAR smaller than if each creature had rolled, assuming they have a chance to communicate with their companions. The more creatures involved, the greater the chance that someone will roll unusually high and be able to alert the rest.

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