Nabasu and Negative Levels

[Conan Dufour]

The Nabasu has a few ways of inflicting negative levels. His Enervation ability clearly states how long these Negative Levels last. But his Death-Stealing Gaze, just says the following

Nabasu wrote:

As a free action once per day per growth point (minimum of 1/day), a nabasu can activate its death-stealing gaze for a full round. All living creatures within 30 feet must succeed on a DC 18 Fortitude save or gain a negative level. A humanoid slain in this manner immediately transforms into a ghoul under the nabasu's control. A nabasu's gaze can only create one ghoul per round—if multiple humans perish from the gaze in a round, the nabasu picks which human becomes a ghoul. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Now I'm not sure whether or not this level is permanent, instantly (which would be a bit harsh for a CR8 monster), or that the player gets another fort save after 24 hours like with Energy drain.

All other mentions of Negative Levels always state that they're permanent if they are. The Vrolikai uses a very similar ability (even with the same name) and here it's states that it's a permanent Negative Level. (But this creature is CR19, so I guess that might explain that).

Another user in another thread thought the levels were temporary, but just like me, he's not so sure either

blahpers wrote:

Since it isn't the energy drain monster ability, I'd assume by the negative levels text that the levels are temporary, allowing a saving throw each day to remove a given negative level. But it isn't really clear, and there's a good chance I'm wrong and the levels are intended to be permanent.

In short: Are the Negative Levels from a Nabasu's Death-stealing Gaze instantly permanent?

[GeraintElberion]

I could do with an answer for this one.

Does anyone know?

[AwesomenessDog]

If they save as part of gaining the negative level, it's permanent. It's when you don't get a save, and it doesn't say otherwise, that you gain a temporary negative level that can sometimes become permanent.

[Taja the Barbarian]

Evidently, they last for at least the nearly 5 years this thread lay dormant...

Okay, now that the required snark has been applied, here are the relevant rules:

Energy Drain and Negative Levels wrote:

Source PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 562

Some spells and a number of undead creatures have the ability to drain away life and energy; this dreadful attack results in “negative levels.” These cause a character to take a number of penalties.

For each negative level a creature has, it takes a cumulative –1 penalty on all ability checks, attack rolls, combat maneuver checks, Combat Maneuver Defense, saving throws, and skill checks. In addition, the creature reduces its current and total hit points by 5 for each negative level it possesses. The creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as spellcasting) for each negative level possessed. Spellcasters do not lose any prepared spells or slots as a result of negative levels. If a creature’s negative levels equal or exceed its total Hit Dice, it dies.

A creature with temporary negative levels receives a new saving throw to remove the negative level each day. The DC of this save is the same as the effect that caused the negative levels.

Some abilities and spells (such as raise dead) bestow permanent level drain on a creature. These are treated just like temporary negative levels, but they do not allow a new save each day to remove them. Level drain can be removed through spells like restoration. Permanent negative levels remain after a dead creature is restored to life. A creature whose permanent negative levels equal its Hit Dice cannot be brought back to life through spells like raise dead and resurrection without also receiving a restoration spell, cast the round after it is restored to life.

[AwesomenessDog]

^Problem is it doesn't say that it is a Temporary or Permanent negative level, and the convention with other negative levels abilities is immediate save = permanent and no immediate save = temporary.

[glass]

AwesomenessDog wrote:

^Problem is it doesn't say that it is a Temporary or Permanent negative level, and the convention with other negative levels abilities is immediate save = permanent and no immediate save = temporary.

My understanding was that all negaive levels in PF1 are temporary except those (like picking up the wrong alignment of sword) that specifically cannot be got rid of while the cause persists. But now I am worrying I got the WEOTS.

_
glass.

[Derklord]

The description makes it clear that permanent negative levels are the exception, not the norm ("Some abilities and spells"). Thus, if not stated otherwise, it's a bestowed negative level is a temporary one.

[GeraintElberion]

Derklord wrote:

The description makes it clear that permanent negative levels are the exception, not the norm ("Some abilities and spells"). Thus, if not stated otherwise, it's a bestowed negative level is a temporary one.

Right, that's what I was missing.

Now that you've pointed it out, it's clear as day. Thank you.

Negative levels are temporary unless stated otherwise.

In fact, the text only uses the word 'temporary' twice, the rest of that section just describes 'negative levels'.

When it gets to the paragraph on permanent negative levels, it uses the term 'permanent negative level' every time, except when referring to normal negative levels. The word 'temporary' is only used at the end of the section to make a clear contrast with 'permanent negative levels'.