Hombrew Healer-ish class


Homebrew and House Rules

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Christopher Dudley wrote:

I think you're looking at the single combats in isolation and seeing that this doesn't ruin a single combat. I agree. One hp/round is nothing. What changes the game is the fact that between fights, this is a free reset, but only for martials. Your casters will still be hampered by limited spell slots and item charges.

And that's really it. It will change the game. Whether you decide it's breaking the game is up to you.

Well said (all of it, but especially this part).

That's an interesting point, that it mainly affects martials. It also affects healers (any clerics can be enemy-smiting priests of battle without ever preparing or spontaneously casting any Cure X Wounds spells - no more healbots.

This should help (but only a little) with the martial/caster disparity (I say "only a little" because surviving HP damage is not the main problem that causes the disparity).

Still, it might make an interesting discussion point toward balancing the martials vs. casters.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

So here's my thoughts. First, the healing is incredibly powerful if it is truly unlimited and can be used outside of combat scenarios. Every other class that heals has limited resources. The issue isn't the in-combat healing, it's the out-of-combat healing. With classes who can cast healing spells, any time they cast one it's one more spell they could've used on something else - they have to use limited resources to heal. Similarly, other classes with healing abilities (such as the Cure Hex, Channel, and Lay on Hands) cannot use those powers at-will. This need for healing drives many of the early-level purchases and is part of the Wealth By Level system. If a class has infinite healing, it greatly skews the WBL in favor of the party. The healing isn't that strong in combat, but once again it doesn't require any resource investment.

Secondly, this class gives up a lot in exchange for passive abilities. I personally don't like classes with no resource mechanics or special actions (Fighter and Rogue for instance), but some people prefer the simplicity. However, there is little choice in the class so far - the abilities all tell you what they do and don't allow customization. Removing player choice isn't good class design.

If you want my suggestion, make the healing Minutes/Level. That lasts long enough to impact combat without all the issues that infinite healing brings. You can keep it as a free action to activate, but perhaps consider making the aura do more than heal and suppress negative conditions. Maybe grant the player one of the Channel feats (such as Fateful Channel, Liberating Channel, and Hateful Channel) and allow them to spend an action to apply it to their aura? Or spend one minute of their aura to channel energy and add their CHA modifier to the number of dice rolled? Maybe they can pulse cleansing energy that removes the conditions you listed above instead of suppressing them? Perhaps at higher levels you can have them heal allies for half the damage they deal that turn? It really needs more unique abilities.


Casual Viking wrote:
Drejk wrote:
Casual Viking wrote:
Cyrad wrote:
jimibones83 wrote:

@Cyrad

Its broken if your playing with a healer in the group that can heal large amounts in the heat of battle, but is it when its the only means of healing?

When I say "broken," I mean in a game design sense. As DM_Blake pointed out, healing is designed as an important finite resource that the entire game's flow revolves around. A class that gives free healing at-will dramatically changes that flow.

As I've told DM_Blake before, that horse left the barn 15. f%*+ing. years. ago. Out-of-combat healing de facto not a limited resource, and hasn't been since Craft Wand was printed. At-will trickle healing does not significantly change the game.

Design goals and design results are not the same thing.

If 3 gp per hit point is de facto not a limited resource to you could you please send me a quarter of the loot your party receives? You clearly don't need it anyway if 3 gp per hit points is unlimited for you! :D
Have you checked out the wealth-by-level and treasure-per-encounter numbers of even 3rd level characters? 3 gp per HP is chump change.

I did. I also looked on damage inflicted. 3 gp might be chump change if you have 3,000 gp but it is rarely 3 gp, 30-60 gp is more likely and that's 1-2%. At higher level 3 gp becomes smaller and smaller chunk of one's wealth, but then the damage to be healed after a serious encounter will be much higher.

CR 3 ogre deals an average of 16 points of damage per hit. If for any reason you don't have a renewable source of healing and have to rely on wands you might be burning through 48 gp just for being struck once. Its expected treasure will be worth ca. 800 gp (Medium xp track). If it happens to hit three times defeating it will cost almost a quarter of loot gained. Even with monster dealing half of that damage at CR 3 four hits can easily equal 100 gp or one-eight of the gains.

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jimibones83 wrote:

I do care about the design of the game though, I just don't believe healing a hit point every round disrupts anything at all. So you get to fight the bad guy today instead of tomorrow, so what. Not that big of a deal.

That is a big deal.

Finite healing exists because it creates a consequence and reward for playing well in combat. If you play smart, you mitigate the damage you take and therefore the healing resources spent. If you play poorly, a battle can become costly, even if you won. It also creates decision making, forcing players to decide if it's worth using limited use abilities to end a battle quickly or risk taking more damage by letting it last longer. It also helps vary encounters -- any encounter can feel intense or easy depending on how much healing a party has on hand. Free at-will healing dramatically changes all of this.

Let's put it into a GM-centric perspective. Finite healing gives the GM the ability to affect the flow and tension in their game. A GM can choose the flow and intensity of their adventure by choosing how much each encounter whittles down resources. By giving at-will healing, you remove that ability from your GM toolbox. Your options become more limited as you have to rely on lasting status effects and making combats more lethal in order to make encounters have lasting effect. Normally, this isn't something a GM wants.

A GM usually doesn't want to limit their options, but that's what providing free at-will healing does.


@Christopher Dudley

You are exactly right, I just dont think approaching each fight with full HP will break the game.

Scenario A) Your out of resources. You rest for the evening. In the morning, you find the bad guy and clean house.

Scenario B) Your out of resources, but your buddies aura has healed you back to full. You decide to find the bad guy before nightfall. Its a little tougher to take him out with the rest of your resources spent, but you manage the task

It just doesn't seem to really matter. It certainly would if there were some sort of time limit though, but that's pretty rare.


@Cyrad Even with infinite healing between fights, managing a battle poorly is still costly. You would still be short on spells, smites, etc because of it.


Christopher Dudley wrote:

If you want to know if it's on a comparable level as the current game (and therefore presumably not overpowered), look at what else does what you are describing. A ring of regeneration is the only thing in the game I can think of that currently gives unlimited healing 24/7 (or however many hours in your days/days in your weeks). And it heals 1 hp/round, which is less than what your aura is doing at later levels. And it costs 90,000 gp, and only affects one person. Using the Wealth-By-Level chart, and assuming you can only have up to half that number in a single item, you have to be 14th level before you can expect to own one.

Design-wise, this is a red flag.

That's either ill-informed or dishonest. Do you imagine players either buying the ring, or finding it and not immediately trying to sell it? The high cost of the ring is a legacy from earlier editions, where it provided actual, supremely valuable regeneration.


I agree Viking. I'd never pay 90k for that ring. Totaling the cost of wands for my entire group, for an entire campaign, we never even come close to that.

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jimibones83 wrote:
@Cyrad Even with infinite healing between fights, managing a battle poorly is still costly. You would still be short on spells, smites, etc because of it.

As I already explained, infinite healing greatly affects how those resources get spent. The encounter system and gameplay of combat centers around playing smart to mitigate the damage you take. Much of the decision making using smite, spells, etc involve weighing it's worth using it to end a fight quickly . This is how the game works. Free at-will healing throws all of it out the window and limits your options, as a GM, to create engaging adventures.

I'm a software engineer who moonlights as a game designer. I've been designing games and studying game design for years and read the technical works of Joris Dormans and Ernest Adams, men who teach and research game design for a living. I understand effects of at-will healing because I understand the fundamental game patterns and mechanics that lie at the heart of Pathfinder and D&D. So when someone insists that free at-will healing won't have any significant effect on PF/D&D, I feel like a combustion engineering student being told that pouring a bunch of water down the gas tank won't have any effect on how your car runs!

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jimibones83 wrote:

@Christopher Dudley

You are exactly right, I just dont think approaching each fight with full HP will break the game.
...
It just doesn't seem to really matter. It certainly would if there were some sort of time limit though, but that's pretty rare.

All right, then why not just make a house rule that people heal up to full between fights? I'm not trying to be sarcastic or argumentative, I really mean to propose that as a solution.

You created this class because you think players should have healing available to them without a dedicated healer. I'm assuming that if you took the time to make up this class, it solves something that you see as a problem (such as the 5-minute work day). The cost of solving this problem is that someone in the party has to play this class. Speaking for myself, while I would want someone else in the party to have these powers, I would not want to play this class. See what your players say.

If you want to solve the problem of healing between fights, just rule that resting for 5 minutes heals all HP damage. If you want to see this class in action, give them the option to play it, and if they don't go for it, give them an NPC Life Warrior.

Whichever way you decide, playtesting it will tell you without a doubt whether this class is right for your game.

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Casual Viking wrote:
Christopher Dudley wrote:

If you want to know if it's on a comparable level as the current game (and therefore presumably not overpowered), look at what else does what you are describing. A ring of regeneration is the only thing in the game I can think of that currently gives unlimited healing 24/7 (or however many hours in your days/days in your weeks). And it heals 1 hp/round, which is less than what your aura is doing at later levels. And it costs 90,000 gp, and only affects one person. Using the Wealth-By-Level chart, and assuming you can only have up to half that number in a single item, you have to be 14th level before you can expect to own one.

Design-wise, this is a red flag.

That's either ill-informed or dishonest. Do you imagine players either buying the ring, or finding it and not immediately trying to sell it? The high cost of the ring is a legacy from earlier editions, where it provided actual, supremely valuable regeneration.

I don't feel that it's either ill-informed OR dishonest to cite the rules as written in the game we are talking about to demonstrate the relative worth of a proposed ability for the same game system.

From what you're saying, I am going to assume that you don't play that way, and that's fine, I don't want to stop you. And I'm not trying to trick him into abandoning this class. I think if he likes the idea, he should try it and see.


@Cyrad And as I've already explained man, no it doesn't. When my group has a healer, HP is the last thing we run out of. We dont rest to get HP, we rest to get other resources. There is no difference in that and having trickle healing.

Perhaps our experiences are just too different to agree.


@Christoper I think I'm just going to make the ring of regeneration like 5,000gp. Problem solved. I'm still interested in making this idea into a paladin archetype though

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jimibones83 wrote:

@Cyrad And as I've already explained man, no it doesn't. When my group has a healer, HP is the last thing we run out of. We dont rest to get HP, we rest to get other resources. There is no difference in that and having trickle healing.

Perhaps our experiences are just too different to agree.

You took less damage because you used those abilities. It's how the game works. Play smart, use your limited abilities wisely, reduce damage you take, and reduce your losses so you can make it safely through the adventure. Healing up to full for free after every fight throws all of that out the window and limits your options, as a GM, to make a compelling sequence of encounters.


@Cyrad I understood you the first time you made the point. I think you're wrong, you think I'm wrong. You don't care about my reasoning, I don't care about yours. Get over it. Saying the same thing multiple times isn't adding anything to the conversation.

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jimibones83 wrote:
@Cyrad I understood you the first time you made the point. I think you're wrong, you think I'm wrong. You don't care about my reasoning, I don't care about yours. Get over it. Saying the same thing multiple times isn't adding anything to the conversation.

I didn't ignore your reasons. I refuted them.

Also, one reason ring of regeneration costs so much money is because it can restore limbs. If you want a ring that gives you fast healing 1, it should be priced at 8,000 gp. That's the price of a ring with a continuous 1st level spell effect.


@Cyrad I didn't say ignore, I said dont care.

I didn't realize the ring regrew limbs though, so I thank you for pointing that out. 8k gp is way more reasonable for what I was thinking. And it pretty much proves that the aura is not op. Here's how...

Evasion is a class feature for a 2nd level rogue. A ring of evasion costs 25k gp. The aura could be attained through a magic item for less than 1/3 that price, there for, it can not be over powered. In fact, according to gold value, it might even be under powered.

Theres a difference though, the ring only grants it to the wearer, and it doesn't scale with level. Let's address those differences separately.

The ring only grants it to the wearer- So the aura has a gold piece value equal to the ring times the number of people in an average party, 4. So thats 32k gp, a little more than what evasion has been valued at, but not a big enough difference to make it op. Especially when you factor in that each member has to be within range of the aura to receive its benefits.

The aura scales with level- Unlike magic items, lots of class features scale with level. This is not out of the ordinary.

So thank you. I was confident before, but now I feel I've actually been able to prove my point.

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That logic doesn't really follow at all.

First off, you can't really place a price on (most) class features. Even if you could, you can't compare a free healing ability with a situational defensive ability.

Secondly, even following your logic, your math is wrong. You can't just say that 4 PCs benefiting from an item simply multiplies the price by 4. Magic item pricing doesn't work that way. A mass infernal healing would likely be a 5th level spell, which would multiply the price way more than 4 times. Even if magic item pricing worked as you say, it still wouldn't make sense. A PC benefitting from a ring's aura gets a better deal since they get the benefit without using a ring slot.

Finally, the main issue isn't merely that free at-will healing is "OP" but rather it's broken -- it changes the game on a fundamental game design level. Even if you disagree with my earlier analysis on how the game works, you can't deny that completely eliminating the need for an ubiqutious resource (out of combat healing) is a massive boon.


Cyrad wrote:
Also, one reason ring of regeneration costs so much money is because it can restore limbs.

Maybe true, but unless you're playing with houserules you can't actually sever a limb with Pathfinder game mechanics. There is no critical hit, no magic item, no spell, nothing in the RAW (that I know of) that is mechanically capable of severing a limb.

So, if you want characters' limbs to come off, you need houserules (some kind of critical hit system that includes severing limbs, perhaps), or you just do it in story-telling mode ("Well, Jim, the two drow hold you down and put your arm on the chopping block, and then the drow priestess chops your arm off with an axe.").

Outside of those options, I can't think of anything that removes limbs in this game.

Which means, if the price of the Ring of Regeneration is based on reattaching limbs that cannot be severed, then the price is based on a myth rather than a mechanical reality and should be adjusted accordingly.

It's possible that this is, at least partially, a holdover from 3.5 where things like Sword of Sharpness existed. I think I remember a spell that withered a limb right off of your body, and another spell that shattered a bone (internally, no external wound) - but hose might have been 3P. And maybe other stuff like that. Regeneration was helpful for those situations back then, but I think all that is gone from Pathfinder

I agree that the Ring of Regeneration is overpriced. You get the benefit of being immune to bleed damage, but that's an uncommon condition that usually only costs you a few HP before it's cured anyway - it certainly doesn't justify the price.

I don't agree that it's only worth 5,000gp. As others have pointed out, it could reasonably heal tens of thousands of HP over a character's career (especially if you price it so cheaply that 5th level characters are getting it). At high levels, it might be healing a couple hundred HP after every fight, fight after fight - that alone is worth nearly a full Cure Light Wounds wand PER FIGHT.

I don't think pricing a Ring of Regeneration below 20,000gp makes much sense, balance-wise (but I also recognize that this is the "anti-balance" thread so I'm not even sure why I mentioned balance here, but oh well).

One way to balance it (oops, I said it again - here, I'll put this in a spoiler so the balance-doesn't-matter crowd can skip it)...

Balance stuff:
...is to pick a price, way lower than you think is fair, then ask an important question: "At this super low price, would any character buy this item before ALL other items in the book?" (I say "any character" because for every item you can imagine, there are some characters who just won't care much about it and other characters who will love it - imagine you're playing one who would love it). If you did what I suggested, the answer is almost certainly "Yes, I'd definitely buy that first, at that too-low price".

Then raise the price and ask the question again. If it's still "Yes" then raise it again, and again. Until you find yourself saying "No, at this price, there are probably some other things I would buy before this item."

And there you have it. That's your balanced price. If you did it right, then you imagined playing a character who loves this item and really wants it, but MIGHT not make it as the very first purchase when he has the cash because there are other items he thinks are just a valuable that he might want first.

I won't even try to answer it for you - you have your own notion of balance. But do that process fairly and you'll probably get a decent price that fits your notion. And if you find every player is rushing out to get the item first thing, then you know you did it wrong. Also, if you put one in some loot and the players' first response is to take it to town and sell it for the gold, then you did it wrong. It should be priced in that sweet spot where someone would keep it instead of selling it, but nobody would be desperate to buy it ASAP.

The cool thing is that every GM can do this and we'll arrive at many different values, but each value will be perfect for our own tables.

That's a win/win even if you don't care about balance.

(note: maybe that's useful to everyone because it doesn't balance the item vs. the encounters, but rather, it balances the item vs. other desirable items which is probably more universally recognized as a desirable thing to do - or so I would assume)


@Cyrad The logic follows just fine. Pretending it doesn't just makes you look biased man.

You may be right about my pricing, but its not as valuable as mass infernal healing would be either, because you have to remain within range. Still, I think your appraisal was closer than mine.

But I disagree that you can't put a price on everything. You definitely can. An accurate one at that.

I'd agree with you that it would change the game a little though. I just dont think that's a bad thing. Lots of things change the game. Gunslingers changed the game and they're awesome. But, its not overpowered, which is really all I was arguing.


DM_Blake wrote:


Healing in this game is a resource. It's meant to be hoarded and saved and spent preciously. When this resources is fully consumed, that's when the adventurers need to get out of the dungeon and rest so they can recover this resource.

Many aspects of the entire game are balanced around this idea.

Back in 3.5, we had a level 0 cleric Orison that healed 1 HP per cast. Cure Minor Wounds. But back then, you could only cast orisons a few times per day. Then Pathfinder made Orison's "at will" so you can cast them every round forever, never running out. In the process, the developers DELIBERATELY removed Cure Minor Wounds because they did NOT want clerics to be able to cure 1 HP per round all day long. Fight's over? You took 40 HP damage? Give me 40 rounds and I can heal all that damage for free.
---------------

What would you say to have the skill of Healing actually heal people? In our game, we are having it do 1d4 + 1hp per "caster" level. The ability must be checked (requiring a standard action), and the recipient can only have this applied once per day. So, even though we may have 4 people with the skill, the recipient is not getting 4d4+4 hp back at level 1 (14 points average); they are only getting 3.5 hp back on average.

The skill is only about half as good as the 1d8+1 of the most basic cleric spell, but isn't costing any caster's spell points (at least not per se, but at only once per day on the skill per person still constitutes a very finite resource).

To do the bigger healing, and to promote uniformity, we have a house rule for healing spells that says you get 1d8 per spell level + 1 hp per caster level. We allow for healing spells of any spell level up to that of full Heal (which works as written).

I think this is a decent middle ground. What say you?

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jimibones83 wrote:
@Cyrad The logic follows just fine. Pretending it doesn't just makes you look biased man.

I concede there's not really anything I can say in response to having an articulated counterargument get handwaved with a mere "Nah, I'm totally right." Even when the opposing argument hinges on math that's heavily flawed by the opponent's own admission and yet they still insist their logic is perfectly sound.

jimibones83 wrote:
But I disagree that you can't put a price on everything. You definitely can. An accurate one at that.

There exists a term in game design called "incomparables" specifically because you cannot precisely measure the value of every game option numerically.

jimibones83 wrote:
I'd agree with you that it would change the game a little though. I just dont think that's a bad thing. Lots of things change the game. Gunslingers changed the game and they're awesome. But, its not overpowered, which is really all I was arguing.

I feel obliged to disagree, considering I wrote an article explaining why Ultimate Combat firearms are broken and supported the explanation using mathematical evidence, historical perspectives on legacy game mechanics, and insights from professional game designers.

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A system that separates vitality and wound points serves as a good compromise and lends itself to campaigns without prominent healing options. I prefer the system used in Star Wars d20 as a basis, but others exist as well, including the Pathfinder wounds and vigor variant rules.

The basics:

Regenerating vitality points requires a short rest. A 15-minute rest means that you lose most combat buffs (and often you also the element of surprise), so it isn't trivial. Maybe additional rests beyond the first require more time or only restore a limited amount of vitality.

Restoring wound points requires long-term medical or magical healing. Wounds can incur additional penalties, such as a broken arm or a concussion.

There are many ways to tinker around with this system to make it suit your needs without completely trivializing the healing aspect.

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Removed some personally abusive/back and forth posts. Keep it civil, folks.


@Amanuensis

Thanks man, I'll check that out right now:)


@Cyrad My math wasn't off, I just used the wrong pricing system.

You're the one hinging and handwaving. You're hinging on the fact that I priced an item wrong so that you can handwave everything else I say.

You can't use an article you wrote as evidence in a claim you're making yourself.

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