Kiba Kurokage |
I haven't been playing Pathfinder for too long, but I have started a game in which I am playing a Kitsune Arcane trickster, starting at level 1. We have already started gameplay, so stats are set, just looking for advice on where to progress from here.
Starting off, I had originally planned on 4 levels Rouge for the 2d6 sneak attack, and the extra rouge feat, and 4 levels of draconic sorcerer for caster levels. Then moving into Arcane trickster.
I am using the rogue archtype for kitsune to be a better face of the group, the character backstory being that she grew up in a city, learning to pick pockets and charm her way into getting what she wants. She is a little "prissy", and slightly bratty, valuing things like staying clean and presentable, and taking showers/baths. But she is a good person, donating about a fourth to half of her stolen gold to beggars and orphanages, that kind of thing.
My build currently is below:
Name: Yua Kageno
Lv 1 Rouge
Scores
STR 10 DEX 20 CON 14
INT 16 WIS 14 CHA 19
(Stats were rolled, Kitsune get +2 to DEX and CHA, -2 to STR)
Saves
Fort 2 Ref 7 Wil 2
Notable gear/weapons
Leather Armor
Wakizashi(DM ruled I was allowed proficiency for character at cost of longsword and rapier proficiencies)
Dagger+Wrist sheath
Shortbow
Bite (in kitsune form)
Feats
Combat Expertise
Notable Skills (6+)
Acrobatics: 11
Apprise: 7
Bluff: 7
Craft Alchemy: 9
Diplomacy: 11
Disguise: 11 +10 more to appear human
Escape artist: 9
Knowledge local: 7
Perception: 6
Perform Strings: 8
Sleight of hand: 9
Stealth: 9
Traits: Sacred touch(no real reason other than it's useful), Alchemical adept
Alternate Racial trait: Gregarious (When you win over an individual with diplomacy checks, they take a -2 to any charisma-based skill check for the next 24 hours)
I have just found out about Ioum stones as well, and I am thinking about trying to get just a handful of them, like the torch one, for utility. Since it is Arcane trickster, I am planning on building her more magic-based as things progress, but getting weapon finesse and the like sooner rather than later, to ensure she lives long enough to get to later levels. Turning a +0 attack to a +5 would be a MUCH needed bonus it seems.
And thank you all for reading this far, and for any comments or advice you may have for me.
UnArcaneElection |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Also see this thread (fairly new even though currently inactive -- Necromancy welcome) and apply the information therein to modify the advice in this guide and this guide (both old -- I just checked again and they haven't been updated with things like Accomplished Sneak Attacker, Snakebite Striker Brawler, Unchained Rogue, and VMC, but still have good advice for using things that existed when they were written, and are still fully valid if you're stuck with Core-only).
Blave |
4 levels of rogue are a VERY big investment for a Trickster. Usually, you'd try to get by with as few rogue levels as possible, since each level of a spell casting class is more useful than a level of rogue.
With the feat Accomplished Sneak Attacker (grants +1d6 sneak attack), you can qualify for AT with a single level of rogue (prefarably unchained), so you'll still get 19 level of your caster class. This also means you reach the good AT abilities much sooner (like Impromptu Sneak Attack and Invisible Thief).
Kiba Kurokage |
I definitely would have asked the DM about Unchained Rouge if I knew it was a thing before we started. Same with Brawler. Sadly, We are already 2 sessions, and several hours in, so I can't make those changes to my class. I'm stuck with what I have listed for this character.
So, with my current build, if I get the Sneak attacker feat, would it be worth it to put in another level of rouge just for the finesse rouge rouge feat before switching to Sorcerer? Or just get it as another feat later on?
And thank you for the links. I'll look at them all more in depth when I have a little more free time, later tonight.
Johnny_Devo |
The question hinges on whether you've selected magical knack as your character's trait, I think. If you have, then absolutely select that second level of rogue, in my opinion, because a rogue trick is valuable. In fact, don't make that trick be finesse rogue, make it something you can't get with feat equivilants.
If you haven't selected magical knack, you need to have as few levels out of your caster class as possible, so you'd want to have only one level in rogue. That one level of rogue, one level in impromptu sneak attacker, and 4 levels in sorcerer is enough to get you to have your first level in arcane trickster at level 6.
However, one important note: the arcane trickster has a very low BaB and HP, along with the sorcerer, which means you're focusing on sneak attack strikes from a distance. That means sniper's goggles and use of cantrips are a must. Acid splash is my favorite for free attacks, I'd say. (playing an arcane trickster right now)
UnArcaneElection |
I definitely would have asked the DM about Unchained Rouge if I knew it was a thing before we started. Same with Brawler. Sadly, We are already 2 sessions, and several hours in, so I can't make those changes to my class. I'm stuck with what I have listed for this character.
{. . .}
I could have missed something, but as far as I can tell until you start taking Rogue Talents (where Unchained Rogue restricts the list), Unchained Rogue doesn't give up anything that Classic Rogue had, so you wouldn't have used anything that you would be giving up. If Pathfinder Unchained is allowed in your campaign at all, you should ask your GM (nicely, of course) for a free rebuild, since you did your character build with outdated information (besides which, it's really hard to build an effective regular Rogue with Classic Rogue instead of Unchained Rogue).
Blave |
So, if I take the feat for the extra d6 sneak attack(Assuming DM allows it) and I only get 1 level in Rogue, would Magical knack even work then? As it seems the texts states you only get the +2 Caster levels is it doesn't raise it above your current HD. Which it would with only 1 level in Rogue...
It only means, you can't get more than two caster levels from Magical Knack. Nothing's keeping you from only getting one. So with rogue 1/Wiz 3/AT10 and Magical Knack, you'd still have a caster level of 14.
Scott Wilhelm |
UnArcaneElection's post leads to the fast way to Arcane Trickster entry. But let me ask, is your GM allowing Spell-Like abilities to count for Early Entry into Prestige Classes? Then I'd recommend you be a Tielfling, so your Darkness Ability counts.
Otherwise,
1 Ninja: Accomplished Sneak Attacker
2N1Wizard1:
3N1W2: Arcane Armor Training
4N1W3:
5N1W3Arcane Trickster1
You might want to go ahead and take more levels in Ninja: personally, I really like the Vanishing Trick. Vanish as a Swift Action, then cast Scorching Ray: a Ranged Touch Attack vs Flatfooted AC and automatically do Sneak Attack Damage. Pretty cool.
UnArcaneElection |
Look at the knife master Archtype, d8's for backstab is very nice. also, go dex based and do the 2-weapon build, the extra attacks just multiply your backstab potential.
I actually asked about that in the other thread that I linked above, but the problem with this is that the Sneak Attack dice are only d8 when you are using a knife, and d4 otherwise, which includes any Sneak Attacks that you do with spells, so you're actually hosing yourself unless you do something really specialized like go VMC Magus so that you're always Spellstriking with a knife. Problem with that is that you don't get Spellstrike until level 11, which is a really long time to wait for it to get online, and you don't even have a way to go VMC Magus some archetype that lets you get Ranged Spellstrike, so you can't Spellstrike with thrown knives either. You would have to dip at least 2 levels (depending upon the archetype) of a Magus archetype that has Ranged Spellstrike to get this ability, and most of them hose you for melee Spellstrike, while Myrmidarch doesn't have that problem, but only awards Ranged Spellstrike at level 4. That big a dip is definitely not worth it (and you don't want Magus to be your spellcasting class for Arcane Trickster, because then you are pairing 6/9 spellcasting with d6, 1/2 BAB -- worst of both worlds).
Unchained Rogue 1/Sorcerer 4/Arcane Trickster X. If it were me, I'd choose Wizard or Arcanist, but if you're new, prepared casters are a pain in the ass to play.
If you're going to have your casting class be Sorcerer (unless you are using the Wildblooded Bloodline Sage or Empyreal) AND you plan to take more than 1 level of your Sneak Attack class, consider having your Sneak Attack class be Ninja, so that you get your high Charisma powering both your spellcasting and your Ki pool (and get Vanishing Trick as your 2nd level Ninja Trick, like Scott Wilhelm said above).
Kiba Kurokage |
Well, Kitsune get bonuses for archtyping to Rouge, changing out trapsense and the like for social traits. So Rouge was a good one for the high skill and starting gold roll. I was going for her being the face of the group, with spells backing it up as a support, after the surprise round or when I can't flank for damage, using hypnotise, or in town, charm to get better prices, or information. Acting as battle support, rather than mostly direct damage myself.
Though with all of your information, I'm going to ask to see if I can use the unchained rouge to get a free weapon finesse, get the feat for the extra sneak attack die, then 4 levels of Draconic sorcerer, focusing on enchantment spells(Bonus DC for Kitsune, and 4 levels as a preferred class gives me an extra +1 to DC) and other helpful spells, helping control the battlefield from behind our more tanky fighting characters.
1 Level Rogue
4 Level Sorcerer (Draconic)
Then ?+ levels of Arcane trickster
Though I would of course still love to hear other opinions on what should be done. I am kind of stuck in lv 1 Rogue, but anything else at the momment is up for changing.
Blave |
If you don't want to rely on damaging spells too much, there's little use in being draconic. You could go with the fey bloodline for another +2 spell DC. It's only for compulsion, but that's more and better spells than charm anyway, especially for use in combat. Add Greater Spell Focus and your Kitsune bonuses, and you'r allready at +6 DC to devastating spells like hold person/monster, Dominate Person and Confusion.
Just be sure to have a backup plan against foes with immunity to mind effects like
battlefield control (grease, pit spells, walls)
crowd control (glitterdust)
debuffs (blindness, enervation)
buffs (haste)
and - of course - blasts, preferably with touch attacks so you can use them to deal sneak attack damage.
Kiba Kurokage |
If you don't want to rely on damaging spells too much, there's little use in being draconic. You could go with the fey bloodline for another +2 spell DC. It's only for compulsion, but that's more and better spells than charm anyway, especially for use in combat. Add Greater Spell Focus and your Kitsune bonuses, and you'r allready at +6 DC to devastating spells like hold person/monster, Dominate Person and Confusion.
Just be sure to have a backup plan against foes with immunity to mind effects like
battlefield control (grease, pit spells, walls)
crowd control (glitterdust)
debuffs (blindness, enervation)
buffs (haste)
and - of course - blasts, preferably with touch attacks so you can use them to deal sneak attack damage.
I actually didn't think about that at all. I can see switching her from a damage dealer herself to some damage potential, but mostly being field control. With fey so half of the enchantment spells get the extra DC ontop of her bonuses already, I would lose claws, but with the dagger/wristsheath and a good bonus to slight of hand, she should be good there. My only question is if it has to be a melee touch attack spell to get the sneak attack damage? Wouldn't a ranged spell work too? Even if it's just flanking damage and not say, in the surprise round or while you are invisible?
Scott Wilhelm |
If you don't want to rely on damaging spells too much,
When I played an Arcane Trickster, I sure did have to rely on damaging spells too much. The BAB progression for an AT is a lot more than Wizard than Rogue: abysmal. Just put that crossbow down, and when you run out of Scorching Rays, switch to Jolt and Acid Splash.
If you want to be an invisible sniper, you'd be better off as a Ninja with a level in Gunslinger. Use the Ninja Vanishing Trick and shoot your gun as a Ranged Touch Attack vs Flatfooted AC, locking in that Sneak Attack Damage with every shot. Maybe take 3 levels in Monk, Drunken Master for plentiful, Drunken Ki.
Or maybe just be a Grenadier Alchemist Archer, infusing your arrows with Bombs and vials of Acid, and taking fast Bombs and just throwing them when you are close. You can augment your arrows with Deadly Aim, True Strike, and Explosive Missile. If you use Marker Dye Arrows, the attacks resolve themselves as Ranged Touch Attacks.
The thing that my AT was really, really good at was sneaking around, infiltrating, spying, and gathering information. He was soso as a blaster wizard. He was mediocre as a sniper. I knew better than to try to use my claws. But with a Vanish Spell he could run away, then apply his Stealth Skill. He could cast Disguise Self and enter a castle, pretending to be the cleaning woman with free run of the place, emerging with a map of the whole place with guard posts and security trap locations. He had a Mask of Stony Demeanor that gave him a +10 on Bluff checks made to lie. When we were in the wilderness, I would cast Commune with Birds and quickly get the lay of the land. My character was in a Kingmaker campaign, and he was the Kingdom's treasurer. Nobody even knew which of the castle's bureaucrats he was. His office stood empty, and he would occasionally go up to one of the scribes and say, "Mr. Bookman wants those reports left on his desk." When the random events would call for an assassination attempt against me, chances are I'd see the assassin coming long before he saw me.
TxSam88 |
TxSam88 wrote:Look at the knife master Archtype, d8's for backstab is very nice. also, go dex based and do the 2-weapon build, the extra attacks just multiply your backstab potential.I actually asked about that in the other thread that I linked above, but the problem with this is that the Sneak Attack dice are only d8 when you are using a knife, and d4 otherwise, which includes any Sneak Attacks that you do with spells, so you're actually hosing yourself unless you do something really specialized like go VMC Magus so that you're always Spellstriking with a knife. Problem with that is that you don't get Spellstrike until level 11, which is a really long time to wait for it to get online, and you don't even have a way to go VMC Magus some archetype that lets you get Ranged Spellstrike, so you can't Spellstrike with thrown knives either. You would have to dip at least 2 levels (depending upon the archetype) of a Magus archetype that has Ranged Spellstrike to get this ability, and most of them hose you for melee Spellstrike, while Myrmidarch doesn't have that problem, but only awards Ranged Spellstrike at level 4. That big a dip is definitely not worth it (and you don't want Magus to be your spellcasting class for Arcane Trickster, because then you are pairing 6/9 spellcasting with d6, 1/2 BAB -- worst of both worlds).
I found that with a full caster in your party that Arcane Trickster spell use was better used in a support role. Casting buffs for the party, and especially yourself, combined with the Tricksters innate Greater invisibility made the d8's really stand out. This freed up your full caster to use his spell slots for damaging spells. and while I'll admit d4 backstab when casting a spell isn't as good as d6's, they are still better than no backstab on a spell at all, and I much preferred using my knife anyway. call it a best of both worlds scenario IMo