Throw me a... spear? Axe? Anything but a knife... Building a (Ranger) Thrower


Advice

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So, I know this has been addressed, and I've read the threads, but new classes, feats, and combat styles have emerged since then, and plus, I'd just appreciate the help.

I'm looking to build a ranger who focuses on throwing, but isn't horrible in melee. Probably starting at level 3 or 4. I want to play a Divine Tracker/Trapper, though I know that's not optimal.
I understand returning weapons, as well as Blinkback belt, will likely be important. I was thinking 2 returning short spears, one in each hand, throw one, hand off-hand one to main hand, and then throw that one, then catch them in each hand on way back, rinse, repeat (with rapid shot). This is just until I get a blinkback belt.
I'd be a bit MAD, but so are archers, and they're great.
If any one has better ideas, I'm game to hear them. My only caveats are it has to be ranger (maybe slayer), probably human, and either axes or spears. Not slings, chakrams, or daggers.
Thanks!


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
Mbertorch wrote:
hand off-hand one to main hand

Unless you are using two-weapon fighting to get more attacks than you would otherwise, there is no off-hand so this step is unnecessary.

If you ARE using two-weapon fighting to get more attacks than you would otherwise, doing this does NOT negate the penalites.


I should have been clearer, sorry.

I don't plan on TWF, as I think it would be too feat intensive alongside the many range feats. Handing from the one off hand to the main hand is for when I use rapid shot, or have a high enough BAB (but not both at once. At that point I'll need the blinkback belt, since I'll only have two hands).

Does that make more sense?


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I know you said spears, but are you willing to consider javelins, instead? Wrapped with amenta (making them martial weapons), they have a 50 ft range increment. They aren't designed for use in melee (-4 on attack rolls), but are a much better ranged option. Just pick up the Quick Draw feat and skip the blinkback belt in favor of an efficient quiver containing various spears (6) and javelins (18) until you can afford a lesser belt of mighty hurling.

Scarab Sages

Get the Weapon Master's Handbook. Take the Ricochet Toss Mastery feat. This allows any thrown weapon to behave as if you were weapon a blinkback belt without having to use your belt slot.

It requires a feat tax if you don't have weapon training, but it's SO worth it.

Dark Archive

Note that per Core p 552, it would only cost +50% (7500 gp) to add the abilities of a blinkback belt to one's girdle of whatever, which is still relatively cheap for an item that enables your build to come online.

Scarab Sages

Set wrote:

Note that per Core p 552, it would only cost +50% (7500 gp) to add the abilities of a blinkback belt to one's girdle of whatever, which is still relatively cheap for an item that enables your build to come online.

If your GM allows custom weapons. Not all do, and it's not an option for PFS.


Might I interest you in something (not) completely different?

The trait

Rough and Ready:
When you use a tool of your trade (requiring at least 1 rank in the appropriate Craft or Profession skill) as a weapon, you do not take the improvised weapon penalty and instead receive a +1 trait bonus on your attack. This trait is commonly used with shovels, picks, blacksmith hammers, and other sturdy tools — lutes and brooms make terribly fragile weapons.

makes for some pretty hilarious builds, and every projectile you use is Masterworked (+1 trait bonus)!

You can be a woodchuck whose burning passion was his work as a park ranger! Unfortunately for you, a crazed fire magician burned down the forest your family had been living in for centuries! After screaming out your sorrow in the ashes of what you failed to protect, you picked up your axe and swore to get revenge...

Still axes, but +1 to hit.


Wow. Lots of awesome advice. Gonna be tough to address it all. Thanks!

I'm not sure if I understand why I'd want the belt of mighty hurling, except for the range increase, because I can't focus solely on strength, at least not before that point, since I'll be relying on dex to hit. Still, it has cool perks, and would let me focus more on strength from then on...

Javelins are definitely better for range, but now that I've read what I've written, I think I'd prefer to be more of a "switch-hitter." I apologize. I'd also really prefer to be able to use the same weapons for throwing and melee, because it already seems like a costly (but worth it for the flavor) combat type.

The profession idea is great, but it unfortunately doesn't solve the 10ft. range of throwing axes.

Custom items could work... the GM would just have to make sure it's not OP...by her definition.

I can't seem to find Ricochet Toss Mastery anywhere... is it anywhere? Online, that is.

Also, would Ranger be okay for the class, or is it a bad plan?

Lantern Lodge

Throwing builds can get tricky, but there are ways around the several issues. Those issues are:

Enchantments are nigh unto impossible for weapons of a throw build (ammunition is destroyed, and enchant 10+ weapons is cost prohibitive, or a blink back belt).

A little MAD (same as archers) or a belt of mighty hurling

First, base class. Ranger is great for the feats, but you should also look at barbarian (IMO). Bonuses to strength, and the hurling charge power:

Hurling Charge wrote:
Hurling Charge (Ex): While raging and making a charge attack, the barbarian may draw and throw a hurled weapon during her charge, gaining the normal +2 attack roll bonus on the thrown weapon attack as well as on the melee attack at the end of the charge. The barbarian must move at least 10 feet before using a thrown weapon and at least 10 additional feet before making a melee attack at the end of her charge. The barbarian must have a thrown weapon in hand or have one hand free at the beginning of her charge. A barbarian must have the lesser hurling rage power to select this rage power. A barbarian must be at least 6th level to select this rage power.

Add in Opening Volley and you can have a pretty powerful charge combo. The interaction is subject to DM interpretation, but adding in Charging Hurler feat could let you get 2 ranged attacks with thrown weapons on a charge.

But we really care about full attacks. Two-Handed Thrower lets you get 1.5 your strength bonus on attacks with one handed or two handed thrown weapons (not light).

Of course, rangers/magus/inquisitors will be your best friend, with the ability to cast "returning weapon" for you as a first level spell (perhaps get a wand of it?). Only 1 min/level though.

Belt of Hurling really is the go to for this though. Starting at a low level, you could wait it out by relying on melee combat more.

Depending on how your DM rules, and Atlatl could be a great choice. Check to see if she'd allow you to use throw based feats with it. If you can, then for the price of rapid reload (instead of quick draw), you could throw javelin type weapons at full BaB, with 1.5 times your strength (for using two hands with two-handed thrower), and you enchant the atlatl, which then enchants the ammunition used like a bow.

My DM, however, allowed me to enchant gloves that enchanted the weapons I threw. So, talking to DM's is awesome :).


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SlimGauge wrote:
Mbertorch wrote:
hand off-hand one to main hand

Unless you are using two-weapon fighting to get more attacks than you would otherwise, there is no off-hand so this step is unnecessary.

If you ARE using two-weapon fighting to get more attacks than you would otherwise, doing this does NOT negate the penalites.

Mbertorch wrote:

I should have been clearer, sorry.

I don't plan on TWF, as I think it would be too feat intensive alongside the many range feats. Handing from the one off hand to the main hand is for when I use rapid shot, or have a high enough BAB (but not both at once. At that point I'll need the blinkback belt, since I'll only have two hands).

Does that make more sense?

I think you misunderstood SlimGuage's point. You are only considered to have a "main hand" and an "off-hand" when you are using TWF to get extra attacks. Otherwise your hands are considered to be identical. You are not using TWF to get more attacks so you don't need to pass the weapons between your hands. Just throw each one using whichever hand it is in.

Here is the relevant FAQ.

FAQ:
Multiple Weapons, Extra Attacks, and Two-Weapon Fighting: If I have extra attacks from a high BAB, can I make attacks with different weapons and not incur a two-weapon fighting penalty?

Yes. Basically, you only incur TWF penalties if you are trying to get an extra attack per round.
Let's assume you're a 6th-level fighter (BAB +6/+1) holding a longsword in one hand and a light mace in the other. Your possible full attack combinations without using two-weapon fighting are:
(A) longsword at +6, longsword +1
(B) mace +6, mace +1
(C) longsword +6, mace +1
(D) mace +6, longsword +1
All of these combinations result in you making exactly two attacks, one at +6 and one at +1. You're not getting any extra attacks, therefore you're not using the two-weapon fighting rule, and therefore you're not taking any two-weapon fighting penalties.
If you have Quick Draw, you could even start the round wielding only one weapon, make your main attack with it, draw the second weapon as a free action after your first attack, and use that second weapon to make your iterative attack (an "iterative attack" is an informal term meaning "extra attacks you get from having a high BAB"). As long as you're properly using the BAB values for your iterative attacks, and as long as you're not exceeding the number of attacks per round granted by your BAB, you are not considered to be using two-weapon fighting, and therefore do not take any of the penalties for two-weapon fighting.
The two-weapon fighting option in the Core Rulebook specifically refers to getting an extra attack for using a second weapon in your offhand. In the above four examples, there is no extra attack, therefore you're not using two-weapon fighting.
Using the longsword/mace example, if you use two-weapon fighting you actually have fewer options than if you aren't. Your options are (ignoring the primary/off hand penalties):
(A') primary longsword at +6, primary longsword at +1, off hand mace at +6
(B') primary mace at +6, primary mace at +1, off hand longsword at +6
In other words, once you decide you're using two-weapon fighting to get that extra attack on your turn (which you have to decide before you take any attacks on your turn), that decision locks you in to the format of "my primary weapon gets my main attack and my iterative attack, and my off hand weapon only gets the extra attack, and I apply two-weapon fighting penalties."

That said, you really should consider the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. For a thrown-weapons build it is better than Rapid Shot. Both give you the extra ranged attack at a -2 penalty, but TWF can also be used with melee attacks. Plus it opens up the possibility of even more attacks with ITWF and GTWF.


Mbertorch wrote:
I can't seem to find Ricochet Toss Mastery anywhere... is it anywhere? Online, that is.

Ricochet Toss is a Weapon Mastery feat from The Weapon Master's Handbook. It just came out so you won't find the feat online yet.

The same book contains the Sharding weapon special ability. It lets you throw magical duplicates of your weapon. So you can throw duplicates of your spears (with a reduced range increment of 10') without ever letting go of your actual spears.

For a dedicated thrower, Ricochet Toss is better.

The Startoss Style feats are also worth considering for a thrown-weapons build.

And if you want to go with a spear build, then you should probably look into the Doru spear from Distant Shores.


@Gisher
So, everyone's ambidextrous? Lucky...
But yeah, that makes more sense. Sorry for the misunderstanding. And I'm not sure about TWF, because I was thinking two handed thrower and power attack...
As for the stuff from "The Weapon Master's Handbook," I can't say much about it until I can access it.

@FrodoOf9Fingers
The Barbarian is interesting, but I really just don't like the class... And I know, I know, "I can play any class however I want"... But... no thanks. Sorry, because it does have some sweet benefits.

The atlatl is really interesting. So, does it pretty much function as a projectile Weapon, then? Does it (RAW or RAI) actually enchant the "javelins" it hurls? And, just out of curiosity, how is different than the throwing arrow cord in function?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/throw ing-arrow-cord

Anyway, thanks for the help! I really appreciate it.


One of my Emerald Spire players is playing a cardcaster magus using chakram as his primary weapons. Without heavy armor, though, these are a poor melee weapon - some GMs, however, will simply allow you to remove the self damage if you have a gauntlet on since that's the part that protects you from cutting yourself. Chakram are one of very few slashing thrown weapons and it comes with a base 30' range increment.

Sad as it is to say, the thrown weapon combat style for rangers is terrible. Just take the archery style instead since all of the feats you intend to take for this style of play that have prereqs are in that style. Thrown gives you no early access feats that you couldn't get through archery, making it worthless. The alternative, as Gisher pointed out, is TWF style, which opens up the dex-free TWF feats. Take this if you think you'll play melee equally to ranged. Archery allows for a more throwing-focused style.

Returning is a poor option since they come back at the end of your turn. Once you hit level 6, you will have too many attacks for these weapons to work properly. Blinkback, Ricochet Toss, or tons of mundane weapons are really your best bets here. This also greatly matters with special materials. Ricochet Toss is truly the strongest option of these, though, since many good thrown weapons are one-handed, which limits you to 2 on the belt. Remember that each Returning weapon is over 8k gold and you can easily replace the stat belt with Ioun Stones if you go that route.


@Serisan
First of all, thanks for the input. I really do appreciate it.

So, I checked out Ricochet Toss, but I don't understand how it will help me. In the PDF, it says a prerequisite is weapon training class feature... which Rangers don't have... So, while it seems great, how am I supposed to take advantage of it without playing a Fighter?

And yeah, the throwing style does seem lackluster. What about any of the "faith-based" styles on the pfsrd website? Some seem pretty good...

Again, thanks for the help.

Also, other than the short range, what's wrong with a shortspear? I like that two handed thrower and power attack will both give it a 1.5 boost to damage...

Scarab Sages

Mbertorch wrote:

@Serisan

First of all, thanks for the input. I really do appreciate it.

So, I checked out Ricochet Toss, but I don't understand how it will help me. In the PDF, it says a prerequisite is weapon training class feature... which Rangers don't have... So, while it seems great, how am I supposed to take advantage of it without playing a Fighter?

The martial focus feat in the handbook as well. It gives +1 damage with all weapons in a weapon group and counts as weapon training for the purpose of feats. You take it as a prerequisite for ricochet toss.


No one has mentioned Sliding Axe Throw. I've been badly wanting to build a Dwarven Savage Technologist Barbarian who uses that feat in conjunction with Hurling charger.

That must be sooo sweet...


Okay, so my GM looked at Ricochet Toss and Martial Focus (I have the PDF now), and she ruled that Ricochet Toss only works with bludgeoning weapons, and I think she might rule that martial focus also needs weapon focus as a prerequisite, since she thinks it's a bit OP. Now what?

I'm actually now thinking of being a half-elf and switching out adaptability for EWP with a boomerang, since she'll let Ricochet Toss work with that, and 30ft range isn't absolutely horrible, especially if I pick up distance thrower. I know I'm kind of sacrificing melee, but... I think it's pretty cool.

Thoughts?


So, Im now thinking the following for my character:
Half-elf, so I can trade adaptability for EWP to get boomerang.
Ranger, for the combat feats. Archery combat style, since it is sadly probably better for throwers than the new actual thrown Weapon style.
And my feats through level ten are going to look something like this, I think:
1. Quickdraw
2. Precise Shot
3. Deadly Aim
5. Martial Focus (+1 damage to all thrown weapons, and a prereq for Ricochet Toss if you're not a fighter, requires BAB 5)
6. Improved Precise Shot (or Rapid Shot)
7. Ricochet Toss (requires BAB 6, weapon training class feature or Martial Focus, and Quickdraw)
9. Distance Thrower (60ft no penalty, pretty sweet)
10. Rapid Shot (or Improved Precise Shot)

Any thoughts?


I believe Rapid Shot is more valuable than Deadly Aim, especially for lower levels. I would pick Rapid Shot at level 3 instead.

At level 4 you'll have the same penalty to attack for +4 damage, or you could have two attacks at lower damage.


Guide Ranger is a really great option for switching-out Favored Enemy in exchange for the Ranger's Focus ability. Skirmisher Ranger trades spells for some great 'Hunter's Tricks' - like Tangling Attack on a ranged attack.


@BadBird
I've actually played a Guide/Skirmisher Ranger before, and it was great. Might do it again...

@Wonderstell
I can only take Rapid Shot as 2nd, 6th, or 10th level bonus ranger feat, otherwise I need point blank shot as a prerequisite.


Right, I confused Precise for Point-Blank.

And it seems like you really don't want to take point-blank (can't blame you), considering you're avoiding it with combat feats.

By the way, a lv 1 character shouldn't be able to afford a Blinkback belt, so are you keeping several boomerangs on you?


Well, we're probably starting on level 3 or 4.
That said I may end up carrying multiple boomerangs.
And yes I am trying to avoid point blank shot, not so much because I don't like it, but because I have so many other feeds I need.


Are you averse to multi-classing?


Yeah, whew. I've tried to find a solution but you're simply lacking in feats to take Rapid Shot early on. The problem is that you're "wasting" a feat to pick up EWP, which is for fluff reasons, I presume?

As it stands, this is actually crippling you. Rapid shot is probably one of the best feats you can take at lower levels, and it should be a priority.

Playing as a Ranger, you would have access to martial weapons, and there are martial weapons which have the same range (and better damage) than the Boomerang.

The Chakram deals 1 more dmg on average, and shares the range and crit. The difference is that the Boomerang deals bludgeoning damage, which is pretty unusual for ranged weapons.

My advice would be to rethink what the Boomerang means to your character concept, and ask your GM to let you pick up EWP as a trait, or just use the stats of the Chakram but call it a Boomerang.

Also, is it important to be a Half-Elf? The bonus feat from Human would allow you to get rapid shot early on. You could always take the adopted trait if you feel like you (don't) want to belong to the elf-society. (A half-elf and a human raised by elves should be equally shunned?)

1. Quickdraw and Point-Blank Shot
2. Precise Shot
3. Rapid Shot.
5. Martial Focus (+1 damage to all thrown weapons, and a prereq for Ricochet Toss if you're not a fighter, requires BAB 5)
6. Improved Precise Shot
7. Ricochet Toss (requires BAB 6, weapon training class feature or Martial Focus, and Quickdraw)
9. Distance Thrower (60ft no penalty, pretty sweet) or Deadly Aim
10. Distance Thrower or Awesome-new-feat-you-didn't-know-you-wanted-until-you-hit-level-10.

Might be a better plan.


@CheezWizrd
Typically, yes, but what do you have in mind?

@Wonderstell
First thing's first: My GM is pretty RAW. So, refluffling is usually out. If I take a trait like heirloom weapon, to get the boomerang, she'll probably make me lose that specific one, for not having the sense
to just take the feat for it. Furthermore, she's ruled (and I agree) that Ricochet Toss only works with bludgeoning weapons. Half-Elf is to trade skill focus for EWP, while still getting the other bonuses of half-elf, which humans lack. I'd still have to take EWP as a human, so the extra feat is kinda pointless.

So, I'm not left with tons of options, other than a different bludgeoning weapon with range (rare), or a different thrown weapon (with no Ricochet Toss).

Or, should I switch Rapid Shot to lvl 6, and Improved Precise Shot to lvl 10?


Yeah, I saw that Half-Elf would let you get EWP, and I only called it a "wasted" feat because human is an alternative.

Okay. New plan. Take Chakram and ignore Boomerang until higher levels. Sounds good? Sounds good.

Pick Human, get

1. Quickdraw and Point-Blank Shot
2. Precise Shot
3. Rapid Shot.
5. Martial Focus (+1 damage to all thrown weapons, and a prereq for Ricochet Toss if you're not a fighter, requires BAB 5)
6. Improved Precise Shot

then

7. EWP (Boomerang)
9. Ricochet Toss (requires BAB 6, weapon training class feature or Martial Focus, and Quickdraw)
10. Deadly Aim
11. Distance Thrower

(You could prob cast Longshot on yourself from level 4 if you're desperate for range)

The tradeoff for Boomerang isn't noticable until level 7 in your first plan. You are suffering in damage during all the previous levels until then.

Edit: I'm not familiar with what Ricochet Toss actually does, and couldn't find it online. Aaaand I'm not really sure you are allowed to quote what it does since it isn't available to anyone but those with the book right now?


Another good class option for the kind of thing you're looking at would be a human Warpriest; you get a ton of feats to play with, and swift-action divine favor and maybe Sacred Weapon and Blessing can add a lot of punch to thrown weapons.

A Warpriest of Ragathiel could throw axes or whatever with Rapid Shot - and even eventually Improved Snap Shot at 9 for thrown AoO's - and still be able to wield a bastard sword in one or two hands in melee, depending on whether they wanted to hold an axe at the time. The Destruction Blessing adds +1/2levels damage while swift-action Divine Favor and Fate's Favored is another +1 +1/3levels. By level 9, you could be throwing 1d8 axes that have a combined bonus of +8 on top of their normal damage, and you could seamlessly switch over to crushing things with typical melee.
Something like:

1. +WPFW:Weapon Focus: Throwing Axe / +Human:Point Blank Shot / Rapid Shot
3. +WP:Quickdraw / Power Attack
5. Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword
6. +WP:Snap Shot / +WPFCB:???
7. ???
9. +WP:Improved Snap Shot / ???

Working in boomerang by a level where it matters that you aren't throwing mundane ammo isn't hard either.

Sovereign Court

Alternatively, you could use a cracked opalescent white pyramid ioun stone if you have access to Seekers of Secrets. 1500gp to treat a specific type of weapon as a martial weapon and save a feat.

I kinda wish I had the rules text for ricochet shot, because anyone claiming RAW and following it with "ruled this" or "thinks its OP" does not understand the difference between RAW and RAI. Whether something is "OP" has nothing to do with the Rules As Written, only Interpreted/Intended.

Scarab Sages

Here is the feat. It's not OP, but it does break the normal rules of physics.

Weapon Master's Handbook wrote:

Ricochet Toss (Weapon Mastery)

You are able to angle your thrown weapon attacks in such
a way that the weapon ricochets and immediately returns
to you.
Prerequisites: Quick Draw, base attack bonus +6, weapon
training class feature with a ranged weapon.
Benefit: When you make a ranged attack with an
appropriate thrown weapon, the weapon returns to your
hand immediately after the attack is resolved. This ability
does not allow bullets, thrown ammunition such as darts
or shuriken, or thrown splash weapons to return to you.
Improvised thrown weapons don’t return to you unless
you have the Throw Anything feat.


Firebug wrote:
Alternatively, you could use a cracked opalescent white pyramid ioun stone if you have access to Seekers of Secrets. 1500gp to treat a specific type of weapon as a martial weapon and save a feat.

Damn, I completely forgot about this beautiful s(t)on(e) of a *****!

Opalescent White Pyramid (Ioun Stone)

The relevant part:
Cracked: The stone grants the wearer weapon familiarity with the keyed weapon (it is treated as a martial weapon for him). Price: 1,500 gp.


Imbicatus wrote:
Here is the feat. It's not OP, but it does break the normal rules of physics.

So, it's made so that you can heavily enchant one thrown weapon and re-use it for every attack in a round?


Oh wow, the stone seems perfect. How exactly do Ioun Stones work? Are they easy to lose/have stolen?

As far as the GM thing goes, that's my fault for phrasing things poorly. She's not so much RAW as... I don't know, a stickler? She just doesn't like to go customizing a bunch of things, but I'm the same way when I GM. And she always runs stuff by us first, and if we all disagree, then we fix it together. It always works out really well.
And I think making Ricochet Toss work with only bludgeoning weapons makes a decent amount of sense. I'd rule it the same way if I was the GM.


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Ioun Stones.

Here is all the relevant info about Ioun Stones.

The Ioun Stone:
These crystalline stones always float in the air and must be within 3 feet of their owner to be of any use. When a character first acquires a stone, she must hold it and then release it, whereupon it takes up a circling orbit 1d3 feet from her head. Thereafter, a stone must be grasped or netted to separate it from its owner. The owner may voluntarily seize and stow a stone (to keep it safe while she is sleeping, for example), but she loses the benefits of the stone during that time.

Ioun stones have AC 24, 10 hit points, and hardness 5. The powers of each stone vary depending on its color and shape.

Facts:
Ioun stones only float when sent spinning around the head of an intelligent (Int 3+) creature; otherwise they are as inert as common stone. They have no effect on animals, mindless constructs, and other non-sentient creatures; comatose intelligent creatures and those with significant Intelligence damage or drain cannot use ioun stones. An ioun stone has no particular affinity for the living—intelligent undead and the rare intelligent construct can make full use of them.
Despite their ability to float, ioun stones cannot support more than their own weight. They cannot be used to anchor ropes or support creatures. An ioun stone must be able to orbit freely around a creature’s head (or placed in a specialized matrix like a wayfinder) for its power to be active. Creatures without heads usually cannot use ioun stones. The orbit of an ioun stone reflects the thoughts and emotions of its owner; particularly intense emotions have been known to reverse a stone’s orbit or even momentarily stop it in its path.

Ioun stones in orbit never collide with other stones or creatures by chance, and automatically change course to avoid any obstacles in their path. This in large part explains the difficulty of striking an ioun stone in battle. An ioun stone in orbit counts as an attended object, and benefits from any magical protections possessed by its owner.

Implanted Ioun Stones:
Not all the secrets of the ioun stones lie with the Ancients. While the First Humans mastered the intrinsic powers of the stones, uncovering new attributes and binding them to devices, the Second Empire explored the interaction of ioun stones and the mind and body, and in time devised a means of implanting an ioun stone within the flesh. This process, originally believed to be irreversible, protected the ioun stone from harm and theft while still providing its full powers to the owner.

Binding a stone to a single owner is a lengthy process. To begin the ritual, the owner meditates with but a single stone in orbit around him. The body must be cleansed by fasting for a period of at least 3 days. If the fast is broken or interrupted, the process must begin anew. At the end of the fast, the owner makes a DC 20 Charisma check; taking 10 is not permitted on this check. Success indicates the stone has bonded with the owner, and may be implanted. Extending the fasting increases the chance of bonding with the stone, but the character may suffer the effects of starvation and thirst if he persists after several failures; the character gains a +1 circumstance bonus to the Charisma check for each full day past the third spent in fasting, to a maximum of +5. Failing the check means the owner must start over.

Once the owner establishes this bond with the stone, he can have it implanted in his body, which takes 1 hour. This requires a DC 25 Heal check (with a –5 penalty if the owner is the one performing the surgery) and a DC 25 Knowledge (arcana) check to succeed. Failure inflicts 1d6 points of Constitution damage and means the implantation process must start again. Success binds the stone on the surface of the owner’s skin in a location of his choice (usually the head, arm, or hand), where it becomes one with the owner’s flesh, deals him 1d2 points of Constitution damage (which he can heal naturally or with magic), and gives him the full benefits of the ioun stone. Once implanted, an ioun stone may not be sundered or targeted by effects and cannot be removed without the owner’s consent while he is alive (barring complete removal of the implanted body part).

Rumors exist of stranger, darker magics that allow spellcasters to channel spells through their implanted stones, or that cause the stones to shatter if the owner is killed, but those with any actual knowledge of these procedures are dead, hidden, or not talking.

You may also look into the Wayfinder.

Sovereign Court

From the PRD

Ioun Stones wrote:
These crystalline stones always float in the air and must be within 3 feet of their owner to be of any use. When a character first acquires a stone, she must hold it and then release it, whereupon it takes up a circling orbit 1d3 feet from her head. Thereafter, a stone must be grasped or netted to separate it from its owner. The owner may voluntarily seize and stow a stone (to keep it safe while she is sleeping, for example), but she loses the benefits of the stone during that time. Ioun stones have AC 24, 10 hit points, and hardness 5. The powers of each stone vary depending on its color and shape (see the table).

If you want (and are using Seekers of Secrets) you can put them into a Wayfinder (effectively "magic compass" with extra features) and then you just need to have the Wayfinder on your person to receive the benefits from the stone as well as the resonance bonus. Resonance in a non-PFS game is 75% chance for a stone to have resonance. In PFS all normal stones have Resonance, and all Cracked or Flawed stones do not. PFS also uses Method 1 for resonant powers (that is, where each specific type of stone has a specific resonant power), as opposed to Method 2 (where you roll randomly on a table for each individual stone, not type of stone). This is all spelled out pretty clearly in the book.

Seekers of Secrets also has rules for Implanting of Ioun Stones. You do not get resonance, but they are no longer floating around and are considered part of you. Cannot be sundered, targeted, or removed without the owners consent. It is a somewhat difficult process (Non-PFS) requiring a DC 20 Charisma Check (with bonuses for additional days of fasting up to +5), a DC 25 Heal check (with a -5 penalty if you are performing it on yourself), followed by a DC 20 Knowledge(Arcana) check. The Heal and Knowledge checks are performed by the surgeon. Success means you take 1d2 points of Con damage (can heal normally), failure (on the Heal/Knowledge) is 1d6 points of Con damage and must start over. PFS you are assumed to have unlimited time between sessions and given enough time you will eventually succeed (even with a 1 CHA, because you can just fast for 8 days for a +5 bonus then roll a '20').

As far as bludgeoning only on Ricochet Toss, nothing in the feat description leads me to bludgeoning only. In my eyes it would be like saying "cleave only works with slashing weapons". But if you and the GM are cool with it, by all means go ahead. Ricochet Toss also calls 'Darts' ammunition, which they are not.

I don't remember but you might also want to put the feat description in spoiler text to satisfy the forum moderators since the book is fairly new.

Ninjaed by 1 minute as I was previewing my post for errors!


Ioun stones are pretty easy to have stolen unless you get a wayfinder, place the stone in the wayfinder and then put the wayfinder somewhere safe. Problem solved.

If you need a backup weapon which works with ricochet toss in the event that the wayfinder/ioun stone gets stolen anyway, carry a light hammer.

Alternately a 1 level dip in the far strike monk archetype (i don't recommend taking it all the way) gets you proficiency in all thrown weapons, including exotic, quick draw and one other bonus feat at first level, flurry which is in many ways equivalent to rapid shot and a few less-relevant monk goodies.


Here are some things to consider, and bring to your GM if you're interested, as many of them use splatbooks:


  • The Thrown Weapon style from the ACG
  • One of the great (best, IMO) things about Ranger styles is they allow you to skip normal feat pre-requisites: I have a character who uses Power Attack even though she has a 10 STR. This can enable some very effective combinations of abilities that are normally very MAD.
  • There are wonderful combat styles for Rangers who are Devoted servants of Golarion Deities in Inner Sea Combat (splatbook) - many of these could easily be adapted to a homebrew campagin with its own deities. As you said you may take the Divine Tracker Archetype, this seems like it could be a good fit, thematically.
  • Rangers get their Favored Enemy bonuses to combat maneuvers, making them pretty good as battlefield controllers/maneuver specialists
  • Looking at additional weapon properties that can either be crafted or enchanted into weapons can really open up some possibilities

Here's a potential partial build:
Aldarion Silvercrest, NG Devoted Ranger of Gozreh
Half-Elf Ranger (Divine Tracker/Infiltrator Archetypes).
Bessings: Air, Plant
(I wouldn't trade away your spellcasting for Trapper, for this build.)
Ancestral Arms Weapon: Throwing Shield
Favored Weapon: Trident
Starting Stats:
Str:18
Dex:14
Con:14
Int:12
Wis:12
Cha:7
All stat gains to Strength.
Traits: Strong Arm Supple Wrist, Warrior of Old
Favored Enemies: Undead, Aberrations, Humanoid (Giant), Dragon
(The Ranger is a servant of the natural world, and a hunter of the creatures who seek to despoil it, especially the follower's of Gozreh's hated enemies, Rovagug and Urgathoa.)

4th level blessings: Zephyr's Gift (minor): At 1st level, you can touch any one ranged weapon and enhance it with the quality of air. For 1 minute, any attacks made with the weapon take no penalties due to range. In addition, making a ranged attack with this weapon doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity.

Creeping Vines (minor): At 1st level, upon hitting with a melee attack, as a swift action you cause the creature you hit to sprout entangling vines that attempt to hold it in place, entangling it for 1 round (Reflex negates).

The Ranger also uses a Mithral Throwing Shield. He takes a 1-level dip in the Slayer Archetype Bounty Hunter (at some point later in his career), which keeps his BAB at full, and nets him (no pun intended) weapon proficiency with the aklys, bolas, dan bong, lasso, and net (along with the Studied Target ability). He uses his Infiltrator adaptations to grant him Darkvision, +2 Natural Armor, Throw Anything, and Lunge

Feats:
Lvl 1: Point-Blank Shot (It would nice to side-step this, but it will come into play often, and the important thing, as always, is hitting, since he will rely on his lower Dex until the Belt is acquired.)
Lvl 2: Combat Style Feat(Thrown Weapons) - Two-Weapon Fighting (this allows our Ranger to be a switch-hitter, alternating between Thrown and melee styles)
Lvl 3: Precise Shot (Ahhh, finally ignoring that pesky -4), first Adaptation comes online
Lvl 4: Divine Tracker Blessing comes online! (You can conceivably attack at 100' with no range penalty with your thrown Trident, with a 10' move)
Lvl 5: Improved Shield Bash (You can use that shield as a melee weapon, keep the AC bonus, and throw something in your other hand, or the shield)
Lvl 6: Combat Style Feat: Quick Draw (You just started getting iterative attacks, so now is when it becomes essential)
Lvl 7: Shield Slam (You can now use your full BAB, Favored Enemy bonus, gear, etc. to repel opponents who close with you, and draw and throw once they're pushed away. Remember you can Trip with your Throwing Shield!)
Lvl 8: 2nd Adaptation comes online
Lvl 9: Deadly Aim (Bring the pain). Evasion in Medium Armor and carrying a shield (or mithral Heavy Armor... - take that, Rogues!)
Lvl 10: Pinpoint Targeting ('As a standard action, make a single ranged attack. The target does not gain any armor, natural armor, or shield bonuses to its Armor Class. You do not gain the benefit of this feat if you move this round.' - normally requires 19 Dex and a huge feat chain
i.e. no problems hitting anything that has high AC based on armor - ever.)
Lvl 11: Shield Master (You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon. Add your shield’s enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls made with the shield as if it were a weapon enhancement bonus. - Notice the text does not specify melee attacks only, so ask your DM whether you can use these bonuses when throwing the shield). Quarry Class ability. 3rd level spells.
Lvl 12: Camouflage ability, usable any time you're using an Adaptation
Lvl 13: Any Feat you can think of that suits your style and that you qualify for. Major Blessings come online. You can now fly at 60' with a Fly score of +15, and do +13 Electricity damage on a charge attack. You can also summon small Elementals and a Pteranodon)
Lvl 14: Combat Style Feat - Shot on the Run (Fly and take a ranged attack at any point during your movement), 4th-level Spells...
Essential Gear:
Efficient Quiver. Contains various throwing weapons of various special materials, a backup bow and arrows, spears, staves, etc.
Belt of Mighty Hurling
Headband of Wisdom
Wand of Lead Blades, Lesser Metamagic Rods
Weapon Enchantments: Seeking, Veering
Possible Gear:
Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver (Bull Rush or Trip)

Scarab Sages

Wonderstell wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Here is the feat. It's not OP, but it does break the normal rules of physics.
So, it's made so that you can heavily enchant one thrown weapon and re-use it for every attack in a round?

Yes. It brings thrown weapons closer to the standard set by archery. Archery allows you to heavily enchant one weapon, have it apply to all ranged attacks in a round, AND allows manyshot.

Even with this feat, thrown weapons are behind archery.


I really appreciate the feedback from everyone. Awesome and helpful stuff, especially explaining the Ioun Stone and offering build advice.

So, I'd like everyone's opinion: what's more valuable -in general- two feats, or your belt slot?

(I think everyone can see what I'm going for here)

Scarab Sages

It depends on if your GM allows custom items. If they do, you can combine the blink back belt and a stat belt to avoid the feat. If they don't, you'll want the two feats, because you need the belt slot for stat enhancement.


My feeling, if you have a sympathetic GM, is that if you can substitute equipment in the place of feats, especially in the case of a feat-starved build where you're trying to make something work (and the rules aren't helping), is to use equipment where possible. The build I posted above is fairly flexible, I think, where you could find other Favored Weapons that have throwing ranges, and other Deities that have the Air Domain.
The choice between a blinkback belt and the hurling belt stinks, IMO.
In a home game I'd create a 'blinkback harness' that occupied the chest slot.
And make the PC quest for it, of course ;)

Here is an amusing and clever thread about a *cough* throwing build I came across, as well:
THROW STUFF


@Imbicatus
Okay, cool. So, are there rules somewhere for making custom items? 'Cause that may be a good bet for me.

@CheezWzrd
Okay, the rock thing is amazing. I may do that, but I'm pretty sold on the Ranger.
However, the idea of making the blinkback belt into a blinkback harness (or blinkback bandoleer, yay alliteration!) is really cool. Maybe I could get away with that..


Magic Item Creation

There are no rules for creating an item for another slot (in PF atleast), and your GM might not approve of it. But a Blinkback harness makes a lot of sense, and could be justified. It is in your GM's right to apply an additional cost since the item isn't made for its intended slot.

You could also combine two items.

Belt of Incredible Dextery and BlinkBack belt:

Now. Remember. When adding an ability to a slotted item, just add an additional 50% of the lesser item's price.

BlinkBack Belt. Price: 5000 gp

Belt of of Incredible Dexterity. Price: 4,000 gp (+2), 16,000 gp (+4), 36,000 gp (+6)

Belt of Incredible Dexterity +2 and BlinkBack Belt.
Price: 4000x1.5 + 5000 = 11,000 gp

Belt of Incredible Dexterity +4 and BlinkBack Belt.
Price: 16000 + 5000x1.5 = 23,500 gp

Belt of Incredible Dexterity +6 and BlinkBack Belt.
Price: 36000 + 5000x1.5 = 43,500 gp

Before you get any crazy ideas about a continuous "Shield" spell for an item...

The "rules" are only GUIDELINES. So no continuous true strike for anyone!


So, after looking at everything, it looks like my GM is definitely fine with combining items. So, that may be the way I go.

That said, I am also curious about creating items that already exist, but for a different slot. Now, there are no rules for doing such things, but I'll ask all of you:

What kind of home rules would you enact to prevent creating existing magic items in slots they don't yet exist for from getting out of hand?

(Example: ability score bonuses for every slot... that doesn't already exist, does it?)


It isn't that big a problem, actually. Sooner or later you'll run out of slots, and it will be more economical to pick up a ring instead of using Craft Wondrous Item to add more abilities to your belt.

And if you don't have any Item Creation Feats, how will you get these items? No random npc shop should have an item which doesn't exist yet. You would probably need to hire a npc caster to create the item. Which would take time and extra cash.

The price for a Blinkback belt and Belt of dexterity +2 combined would be something like this.

11,000 gp for the item.

Caster Level x Spell Level x 10 to cast the spells, which happens once per day.

Cat's Grace: Caster level 3 x Spell level 2 x 10 = 60 extra gold per day.

Teleport: Caster level 13 x Spell level 7 x 10 = 910 extra gold per day.

That's 970 extra gold per day. And it takes 11 days to create this item.

Since the price of the item is 11,000, we're looking at a total price of 21,670 gp... (Teleport really made this get out of hand)

I would probably add a +10%/+20% of the total calculated price (11,000 gp), instead of tracking the price by spells cast per day.

There should be some increase in price, since created items can be tailored for your specific needs,

Note: If the NPC crafter hurried, it would only take 6 days, but why would he ever do that, when he gets paid less?

Note2: If a player had created a Vest of Incredible Dexterity +2 using the previous method, it would only cost him 240 gp extra.


I'm really sorry, but there are a couple things I don't quite understand.

1. Why are there two prices for the item? The 11,000 and the 10,670?

2. Could you break down that Vest of Incredible Dexterity part? You said it'd be 240gp more, but I'm unfamiliar with the intricacies of crafting...


Right, Right, I guess that was too much text and too little explaining.

From my earlier post:

A Belt of Dexterity and a Blinkback belt would cost:

Belt of Incredible Dexterity (+2) and BlinkBack Belt.
Price: 4000x1.5 + 5000 = 11,000 gp

You add 50% of the price of one item, preferably the one with a lower price, when combining items. 50% of 4000 is 2000, so 4000 + 2000 + 5000 is 11,000 gp.
This is the Price of the item which has the effect of a Incredible belt of Dexterity (+2) and the Blinkback belt. This is the price by RAW.

You were asking for what "/../ home rules would you enact to prevent creating existing magic items in slots they don't yet exist for from getting out of hand?"

To that, I proposed an additional cost that represents that you must find and pay an NPC wizard to craft it (if you can't craft it yourself).

Option 1.

According to the Hirelings, Servants & Services table; to hire a spellcaster would cost
Caster Level x Spell Level x 10 per spell.

When crafting magical items, you are supposed to cast the spells mentioned in the requirements once per day.

If a NPC made an item for you, the cost for having a spell cast by the NPC could be used as a way to represent the cost of designing your own items.

To create the Combined Blinkback and Dexterity +2 belt, one would need to cast Cat's Grace and Teleport Object once every day for as long the item is being crafted. (Since Teleport Object and Cat's Grace are both requirements for crafting said items.)

Having a NPC cast Teleport Object once per day would cost 7x13x10=910 gp/day.

Having a NPC cast Cat's Grace once per day would cost 3x2x10=60 gp/day.

Add those two together and you have a cost of 970 gp per day, to hire a NPC spellcaster to create the Combined Blinkback and Dexterity +2 belt.

Since the price of said belt is 11,000 gp, it would take 11 days to create the item, according to the crafting rules for magic items.

11 days x 970gp/day = 10,670 gp.

Add that number to the original cost of the item, 11,000gp, and you'll have the price for having a NPC craft it for you.

Option 2.

Have a static increase of price for employing a spellcaster to create you an item. A tailored item you have come up with could have an additional cost of 10% or 20%. This option gives an easier way to calculate the price than the previous option.

Edit: Whew, I should avoid these walls of text. I edited around 9 times in a row!


Enhancement bonuses in multiple slots can't really happen, as you only get the largest enhancement bonus currently active.


Ah. Thank you everyone for the explanations!
Since custom items will be allowed (probably at normal price plus 20% of the creation fee), I will probably go back to my original idea of a spear wielding switch hitter, human, Ranger, with something like the following feat selection:
1. Quickdraw
1. PBS
2. Precise Shot
3. Power Attack
5. Rapid Shot
6. Improved Precise Shot
7. Deadly Aim
9. Distance Thrower
10. ?
11. Two Handed Thrower

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