As a DM I am trying to make a ruling but the player does not want to listen.

[LucasB]

So this Mage made some gargantuan crossbow bolts. Ok cool now he cast's Shrink Item on these bolts as they would not fit the spell description of launch bolt (desc. below).

You cast this spell on a crossbow bolt, causing it to fly at a target of your choice as if you had fired it from a light crossbow, using a ranged attack roll. The bolt has a range increment of 80 feet. Any properties of the crossbow bolt (such as magical abilities, master-work quality, and so on) or feats you possess (such as Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus [light crossbow], and so on) apply. Drawing a bolt for this spell is a free action.
Material Component: The crossbow bolt to be fired (1 sp).

Any ways... He launches the shrunk bolts and expects to do 4D6 Dmg because when the shrunken Gargantuan crossbow bolt that is now the size of a light crossbow bolt hits a solid surface like a plate mail it expands.

I have been telling him that because it has been fired by a light cross bow it does 1d6 Dmg not 4D6. The dmg is based on the Weapon that fired it, the only reason why crossbow bolts are in the game and listed as dmg is because when they are used as improvised weapons. You don't say "I made Large Arrows to shoot in my medium Bow" and then entitled to 2d6 dmg.

Any ways I have been trying to explain this to him but he does not want to listen.

There is NO interpretation necessary OR need to find any "common ground". You DO have all the rules that specifically govern this right in the Core Rule book and the Spell Compendium. There isnt even anything confusing here. The rules and logic follow and, according to the rules are written, are 100% correct.

1) Characters can manufacture weapons of any size and the rules for that exist in the Craft skill description. Tao (his characters name) has created Gargantuan x bow bolts following the rules for that. The bolts are NOT ballista bolts (though a ballista is in fact just a massive x bow itself, its likely the bolts Tao made would be usable by a ballista too). They are crafted as Gargantuan x bow bolts and that is what they are. Making a weapon bigger (or smaller) does not change what it actually is (it does change its damage right?). A Large sized dagger is NOT a Medium sized short sword. Its STILL a dagger. (Also, weapons dont usually actually double in size when they change size categories. Halflings are Small sized but are still 3.5 - 4 feet tall while a Medium sized human has an average height around 5'8". The human isnt twice the Halfling's height. There is a range. For making weapons (or any gear) the rules state that weight doubles each time the size category increases. Maybe it doesnt actually do that for every single item but thats the rough rule you'd use to determine some things new weight.
* So, in conclusion, the Gargantuan xbow bolts Tao made ARE Gargantuan x bow bolts. You could call them ballista bolts but they are what they are.

2) Shrink Item works on any item within the spell's Target parameters. The spell does not give an exhaustive, object by object list of every single thing the spell can be used on and it's not reasonable to expect one - it would be endless. Anything that fits the parameters of the spell CAN be affected. The bolts Tao created CAN be affected and are 100% legal targets for the spell since they fit the parameters of the spell being used on them.
* So, when reduced in size, the bolts become legal targets for the Launch Bolt spell. Its worth noting that if a giant caster (like a storm giant wizard) used Launch Bolt he would be firing Huge sized light x bow bolts that would deal out 3d6/hit. The damage of the Launch Bolt spell is NOT limited to the damage that a medium sized caster does with a medium sized light x bow. A halfling's light x bow does 1d6 and so a halfling wizard's bolts would deal 1d6 with Launch Bolt.

3) When an item affected by Shrink Item is thrown against a solid surface (or struck by one) the spell ends and the item returns to its original size in an instant. That we know 100%. Which means that as a target is being hit by that shrunk bolt it will immediately return to its normal size and will be traveling (at least initially) as fast as it was when small. How much speed/inertia is looses over the second its pushing into the target's body IS up for debate. I doubt it would lose much at all over that tiny bit of time but as ive already said twice, id be fine reducing its damage by a size category to take that into account. The base damage for a Gargantuan light xbow bolt is 4d6 so it would become 3d6.

4) Most 3rd level offense spells deal 1d6/caster level to multiple creatures in a single round with no attack roll needed. Tao is using a 3rd level spell to deal 4d6 (or 3d6 if you like) to a single target with an attack roll needed AND having to use another spell to make it work.

I dont know what else to say about this. All the rules exist and are right there. The only decision that needs to be made is how much damage the bolt would do. The rules say 4d6 for a Gargantuan bolt.

[Rathendar]

"It's cool that you are trying to break the game and all, but no. 1d6. End of discussion" ?

[Soilent]

He's doing all this for 4d6?

Dude... There are so many easier ways to completely waste your time and do 4d6.

Yeah, 1d6, Do not pass GO, do not collect $200.

[Scythia]

Don't even go into an inertia argument when magical size change is involved. Relativity means that applying physics to magical size changes gets devastatingly messy, quickly.

That said, your ruling was reasonable. What I would suggest as an explanation is that since striking a surface triggers the size change, it happens after the impact. Thus the bolts are still shrunken when they hit, and resume normal size when they drop to the ground.

On the "player won't listen" front, that can be an awkward situation. Try talking with the player about it, let them know that a game doesn't really work if players can't respect a DM. If they consistently refuse to accept rulings, they might not be a good player to keep in the game.

[CampinCarl9127]

Ah, hello again LucasB. Here is his rules thread question about the matter. As far as the actual rules, your player is wrong and you made a good ruling.

As far as handling this player, this is something that should be done calmly and not during the middle of a session. Explain to him that you have carefully considered his position and have looked at the rules, and that this is your interpretation of how it works. If he still disagrees about how the rules work, fine, then tell him to suck it up and deal with it. This is your game and that is how it's going to work, period.

Also, he's using a 3rd level spell as well as another spell to do 4d6 damage to a single target with an attack roll. Tell him to cast fireball and be 50 times as effective.

[the David]

I tried looking up reduce and enlarge person to come up with an answer and they happily contradict each other. (Enlarge person says it would work, reduce person makes an exception for projectioe weapons.) Now imagine you're struck by a crossbow bolt and it became bigger in an instant. Wouldn't that do an incredible amound of damage?

It's not broken though. He could do much more damage with a fireball at this point. It might be better to just point out that fireball is a better choice.

[the David]

Wait, why did you make another thread on the same subject?

[Mysterious Stranger]

A projectile weapon does damage when it hits. The target of a shrink item reverts back to its normal size after it hits. All arguments about inertia and speed are irreverent since at the moment of impact when the bolt actually does damage it is still medium sized. Only after it has stuck the target and done damage does it revert to it proper size.

I could see a bolt changing size while in something may cause additional damage, but there are no rules for if a projectile weapon is still in the target or not. I would simply have it hit the target and bounce of, then grow to proper size.

As to how to handle the player simply tells him you are the GM and this is your ruling. If he continues to argue tell him Fiat voluntas mea. All official game ruling should always be done in Latin.

[VRMH]

LucasB wrote:

As a DM I am trying to make a ruling

Yoda wrote:

No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try.

[Melkiador]

It'd be more interesting if the bolts were fired into an anti magic field.

[Lincoln Hills]

It'd be more interesting if the bolts were fired into the person who starts arguing about physics.

[Davor]

So the bolt strikes, dealing damage, and then returns to its normal size. 1d6, then it becomes a gargantuan bolt.

Regardless of that ruling, I'd probably allow it to do Gargantuan damage anyways. It isn't broken or anything. Be VERY careful, however. He may be attempting to establish precedent for something like, say, Telekinesis.

[Sarcasm Dragon]

VRMH wrote:

LucasB wrote:

As a DM I am trying to make a ruling

Yoda wrote:

No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try.

But only the sith deal in absolutes!

[My Self]

Sarcasm Dragon wrote:

VRMH wrote:

LucasB wrote:

As a DM I am trying to make a ruling

Yoda wrote:

No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try.

But only the sith deal in absolutes!

That is true... from a certain point of view.

[Rub-Eta]

There's already a bunch of good reasons as to why it wouldn't work (it grows after it hits the surface, etc). But, it's only 4d6 (avg of 14) damage and it costs a third level spell and he still needs to hit.And just imagen how fun it will be when the enemies catches on his strategy and start dispelling the bolts before he fires them. That's the biggest reason as to why you don't hear this more often.

[Yuri Sarreth]

He really wants to do something this insane and wont listen.. Fine let it work once then have him walk into a dispel magic or anti magic field and see what he hopes to do with all his bolts suddenly return to gargantuan size and he falls over and has to spend a full round untangling himself from the carrying item the bolts are in and now has a useless weapon..

Better yet extend the trip through the woods by a week and the spell duration ends. What will he do, spend all his spell slots for a handful of bolts when they get attacked later that day?

[mourge40k]

CampinCarl9127 wrote:

Also, he's using a 3rd level spell as well as another spell to do 4d6 damage to a single target with an attack roll. Tell him to cast fireball and be 50 times as effective.

Hell, Scorching Ray is a second-level spell, and you can apply metamagic fun to it far more easily! And guess what? It does 4d6 damage too! Literally more bang for his buck there.