Making a Masterwork Unarmed Strike


Rules Questions


So I was thinking about Monks and their lack of easy access to enhancement bonus to their Unarmed Strike (not counting Bodywraps of Mighty... and Amulet of Mighty).

And then I looked at the rules for Magic Weapons and spotted the line:

PRD Magic Weapons wrote:
All magic weapons are also masterwork weapons

Normally this could be seen as the main obstacle that prevents someone from using the Magic Weapon Creation rules from crafting a +5 Disruption Unarmed Strike, but then I found a wonderful little 2nd level spell: Masterwork Transformation

Do I read the spell correctly in that it allows you to turn your Monk Unarmed Strike into Masterwork quality for 300gp per fist/foot/elbow/etc?

Because once that hurdle is overcome there shouldn't be anything that prevents me from using the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat to forge me some magical weapon fists, is there?


Technically, but Paizo intends for you to use the amulet of mighty fist.
So the question for your group is which matters more, words or intent.


Oh, I was going to use the above trick to get +5 fists and then have an amulet with the required enhancements (Shardong being one of them, THROW FIST!!!). End result for 4 limbs + Amulet would be 300k, but considering monk I would probably need to enhance more than just 4 (add Head for headbutts at least, maybe for elbows+knees, maybe for additional limbs, etc) so I'd be getting up to 400k gp and above rather quickly.

But yes, Sharding for THROW FIST! <.<


Kind of feels a little like I'm reaching, so I nearly didn't post this, but as it is so clearly against intent, my thoughts:

I am not sure it works -
"non-masterwork item" - is an unarmed strike an item? is this actually a limitation - it's not fluff, but is it a restriction?

"If the target object has no masterwork equivalent, the spell has no effect." has there ever been a masterwork unarmed strike? can there be said to be an equivalent? (this is probably the stronger point against).


Monk's unarmed strikes are affect by spells that work on manufactured weapons, and natural attacks. That is why I said it technically works, however every time someone has found a possible work around to not using the AoMF(amulet of mighty fist) Paizo has made sure that it didnt work. At one time the cestus was worded to do monk damage, and it would have only worked on the fist, and they didnt like that idea either. One dev, even said the intent was for monk to go through the mighty fist.

That is why I said that you technically this probably works, but Paizo doesn't want it to work.

If you don't care about intent then I would just come up with some special monk wraps for their fist, and call it a day. At least they wont have to rely on a spellcaster in your game.


Edinoiz wrote:

Oh, I was going to use the above trick to get +5 fists and then have an amulet with the required enhancements (Shardong being one of them, THROW FIST!!!). End result for 4 limbs + Amulet would be 300k, but considering monk I would probably need to enhance more than just 4 (add Head for headbutts at least, maybe for elbows+knees, maybe for additional limbs, etc) so I'd be getting up to 400k gp and above rather quickly.

But yes, Sharding for THROW FIST! <.<

The AoMF affects all of their limbs so you would not have to pay extra for having more limbs, just like dragons greatly benefit from the AoMF with all of their natural attacks.


Well, since a Monk's unarmed strike counts as a manufactured weapon (as well as a natural one) for purposes related to spells and effects, I would say that its possible. But that's just my reading the following as a designation of categories (in this case weapon, armor, or tool) with the equivalent being a masterwork version of said item, emphasis mine.

PRD Masterwork Transformation wrote:
You convert a non-masterwork item into its masterwork equivalent. A normal sword becomes a masterwork sword, a suit of leather armor becomes a masterwork suit of leather armor, a set of thieves’ tools becomes masterwork thieves’ tools, and so on.

I do know that SKR weighed in on it and said that he did not intend for it to work this way, but it hasn't been explicitly stated in any errata so...

And for reference, a masterwork unarmed strike would be an unarmed strike that is honed beyond proficiency, beyond training in strength and speed and accuracy. It would be an unarmed strike whose use in certain patterns has been made reflexive in response to certain threats, something that would, in the real world, be classified as a deadly weapon.

wraithstrike wrote:
Edinoiz wrote:

Oh, I was going to use the above trick to get +5 fists and then have an amulet with the required enhancements (Shardong being one of them, THROW FIST!!!). End result for 4 limbs + Amulet would be 300k, but considering monk I would probably need to enhance more than just 4 (add Head for headbutts at least, maybe for elbows+knees, maybe for additional limbs, etc) so I'd be getting up to 400k gp and above rather quickly.

But yes, Sharding for THROW FIST! <.<

The AoMF affects all of their limbs so you would not have to pay extra for having more limbs, just like dragons greatly benefit from the AoMF with all of their natural attacks.

Oh, I know. I was just speaking of getting the limbs and fists and such to a flat +5, the Amulet is for magic weapon abilities, like Sharding (THROW FIST!!!).


Oh! absolutely it is a valid target for the spell, I was just questioning whether it actually did anything. It is possible to target something and the spell still does nothing (don't scorching ray a red dragon!)


Well, as SKR said, back in a thread from 2011 that I found after posting this one, "it works but it's not the way we intended for Monks to get Enhancement bonuses on their attacks"


Edinoiz wrote:
Well, as SKR said, back in a thread from 2011 that I found after posting this one, "it works but it's not the way we intended for Monks to get Enhancement bonuses on their attacks"

That is what I was getting it, plus the other times Paizo has avoid letting the monk enhance unarmed strikes in other ways to include a slight rewording of the cestus in the ultimate equipment guide.

Basically, it works per the wording, but if someone FAQ's it they will likely have an FAQ saying it does not work especially since SKR listed design reasons(that I dont agree with) for the design team not wanting it to work.

That is why I keep saying he can use the wording or the intent, but if one is going is going to ignore intent in a home game then I would just houserule things like I do in my home games.

PS: If this is for PFS I would probably post it over there, and hope whoever is in charge of PFS speaks up. That would avoid table variation.


dragonhunterq wrote:

Oh! absolutely it is a valid target for the spell, I was just questioning whether it actually did anything. It is possible to target something and the spell still does nothing (don't scorching ray a red dragon!)

I think you are better off using a more appropriate example. Casting charm person on a dragon, or something like that. Because the target isn't actually valid the spell poofs. Sure your unarmed strikes mighbe valid targets for spells that target weapons etc. But unarmed strikes are still a creature, not an object (is I think what you are getting at).

Scarab Sages

Cast masterwork transformation, and then choose a limb. That limb is severed and becomes a masterwork club. It's best not to try this with a head butt.

Scarab Sages

dragonhunterq wrote:

I am not sure it works -
"non-masterwork item" - is an unarmed strike an item? is this actually a limitation - it's not fluff, but is it a restriction?

*sigh* This is where the "fluff V crunch" mentality really reveals how poisonously off-the-mark it is.

There is no such thing as "fluff." Everything is important. Everything is real. If you're not suspending disbelief and actually thinking in terms of "this is REAL" as opposed to "only the quantifiable parts of this matter and the rest is 'fluff' which I can ignore," then you don't understand the point of the game and cannot expect to play it or understand its rules (which are written by people who DON'T think in these terms) properly until you do.


Gauntlets are unarmed attacks, it lists them under the unarmed attack chart. Just make a gauntlet masterwork (and enchanted) and now you have a scaling magic item for unarmed attacks.


AwesomenessDog wrote:
Gauntlets are unarmed attacks, it lists them under the unarmed attack chart. Just make a gauntlet masterwork (and enchanted) and now you have a scaling magic item for unarmed attacks.

The Core Rulebook lists gauntlets as Unarmed Attacks. The more recently published Ultimate Equipment removed them from that list.


I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
dragonhunterq wrote:

I am not sure it works -
"non-masterwork item" - is an unarmed strike an item? is this actually a limitation - it's not fluff, but is it a restriction?

*sigh* This is where the "fluff V crunch" mentality really reveals how poisonously off-the-mark it is.

There is no such thing as "fluff." Everything is important. Everything is real. If you're not suspending disbelief and actually thinking in terms of "this is REAL" as opposed to "only the quantifiable parts of this matter and the rest is 'fluff' which I can ignore," then you don't understand the point of the game and cannot expect to play it or understand its rules (which are written by people who DON'T think in these terms) properly until you do.

Even designers differiniate between flavor and mechanics and have advocated changing the flavor for your own game. Thia is because flavor is mutable.


From a rules point of view, I'd allow it as long as the person had the ability for their unarmed strike to count as a manufactured weapon (such as a monk). From a common sense point of view, allow it without question since the "can only enhance unarmed strike via amulet of mighty fists" is innately stupid since that item is balanced for creatures with multiple natural weapons not just 1 unarmed strike.


Gisher wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:
Gauntlets are unarmed attacks, it lists them under the unarmed attack chart. Just make a gauntlet masterwork (and enchanted) and now you have a scaling magic item for unarmed attacks.
The Core Rulebook lists gauntlets as Unarmed Attacks. The more recently published Ultimate Equipment removed them from that list.

Why is it that all the simple work arounds have the dumbest of blocking, how hard is it to just fix that in a core book?

Also, just as you can get an adamantine grill for your bite attack, I would argue you *should* be able to use do the same with unarmed strikes (granted anything short of suiting up in armor will have only the slight change that the gauntlet already does).


AwesomenessDog wrote:
Gisher wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:
Gauntlets are unarmed attacks, it lists them under the unarmed attack chart. Just make a gauntlet masterwork (and enchanted) and now you have a scaling magic item for unarmed attacks.
The Core Rulebook lists gauntlets as Unarmed Attacks. The more recently published Ultimate Equipment removed them from that list.

Why is it that all the simple work arounds have the dumbest of blocking, how hard is it to just fix that in a core book?

Also, just as you can get an adamantine grill for your bite attack, I would argue you *should* be able to use do the same with unarmed strikes (granted anything short of suiting up in armor will have only the slight change that the gauntlet already does).

Another example of them trying to be sure you don't use anything other than AoMF.


wraithstrike wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:
Gisher wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:
Gauntlets are unarmed attacks, it lists them under the unarmed attack chart. Just make a gauntlet masterwork (and enchanted) and now you have a scaling magic item for unarmed attacks.
The Core Rulebook lists gauntlets as Unarmed Attacks. The more recently published Ultimate Equipment removed them from that list.

Why is it that all the simple work arounds have the dumbest of blocking, how hard is it to just fix that in a core book?

Also, just as you can get an adamantine grill for your bite attack, I would argue you *should* be able to use do the same with unarmed strikes (granted anything short of suiting up in armor will have only the slight change that the gauntlet already does).

Another example of them trying to be sure you don't use anything other than AoMF.

Why? Unarmed is already inherently weaker, limit us to +5 when unarmed is already weaker than normal combat with rare exceptions.


AwesomenessDog wrote:
Gisher wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:
Gauntlets are unarmed attacks, it lists them under the unarmed attack chart. Just make a gauntlet masterwork (and enchanted) and now you have a scaling magic item for unarmed attacks.
The Core Rulebook lists gauntlets as Unarmed Attacks. The more recently published Ultimate Equipment removed them from that list.
Why is it that all the simple work arounds have the dumbest of blocking, how hard is it to just fix that in a core book?

My guess is that they will fix that when they print the next edition of the CRB.

AwesomenessDog wrote:
Also, just as you can get an adamantine grill for your bite attack, I would argue you *should* be able to use do the same with unarmed strikes (granted anything short of suiting up in armor will have only the slight change that the gauntlet already does).

Which book lists these adamantine grills? They sound awesome.


Gisher wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:
Also, just as you can get an adamantine grill for your bite attack, I would argue you *should* be able to use do the same with unarmed strikes (granted anything short of suiting up in armor will have only the slight change that the gauntlet already does).
Which book lists these adamantine grills? They sound awesome.

I have heard things about the Custom Weapon Creation Rules in Weapon Master's Handbook, but I'm not sure?


Now I'm trying to decide whether adamantine tooth caps would be a single +x enchantable weapon held in one limb, a single +x enchantable attachment to a natural attack, or 50 +x enchantable daggers with a non proficiency penalty but their own 50 separate attack rolls. This must be argued about.


Gisher wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:
Gisher wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:
Gauntlets are unarmed attacks, it lists them under the unarmed attack chart. Just make a gauntlet masterwork (and enchanted) and now you have a scaling magic item for unarmed attacks.
The Core Rulebook lists gauntlets as Unarmed Attacks. The more recently published Ultimate Equipment removed them from that list.
Why is it that all the simple work arounds have the dumbest of blocking, how hard is it to just fix that in a core book?

My guess is that they will fix that when they print the next edition of the CRB.

AwesomenessDog wrote:
Also, just as you can get an adamantine grill for your bite attack, I would argue you *should* be able to use do the same with unarmed strikes (granted anything short of suiting up in armor will have only the slight change that the gauntlet already does).
Which book lists these adamantine grills? They sound awesome.

Enemies (mostly animal companions of baddies) use them, although there is no rules for creating them, their usually priced around 4Kgp so one could use that number for crafting purposes. Although I have not seen them enchanted in the listings, mostly because only low level dudes used them, it is now a manufactured weapon (my definition of manufactured) and can be enchanted. I can't remember names off of the top of my head of the books or specific enemies who had special material - save for the fact I know a dire something had adamantine claws, but for those "without proof it's not RAW" naysayers, there is no reason for this not to exist.

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