FAQ: Can you 5' step out of Grease?


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Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
AwesomenessDog wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Nope. It's far from useless. Your working understanding of the spell seems to be missing the fact that if it's cast on you, you have to save or fall. If it's not cast on you, you make acro checks if you cross it.
Oh no, a jump check or spend an extra 5ft to go around, again how is this not useless compared to forcing those already inside to pass to exit. That is not the intent of the spell, the intent is to stop people from approaching past where the spell is placed, which anyone can do without issue if grease can be 5ft stepped out of (and, apparently as everyone is arguing, inside of to inside of). The spell is useless with your interpretation or a mild nuisance (as 1st level spells are supposed to be) with my interpretation.

I don't think anyone is saying you can 5ft within it, since it takes up 10ft of movement when walking within it. But I am saying that you can 5ft out of it. Hence why you only cast it on people you believe will fail the Reflex save.

Battlefield control is one of the strongest abilities of magic. Put a 10ft square of terrain that the enemy can't cross and you control where he can go and what position he can occupy.

A golem is not going to make the acrobatics check. A heavily armored opponent isn't likely to do so either.

Grand Lodge

AwesomenessDog wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Nope. It's far from useless. Your working understanding of the spell seems to be missing the fact that if it's cast on you, you have to save or fall. If it's not cast on you, you make acro checks if you cross it.
Oh no, a jump check or spend an extra 5ft to go around, again how is this not useless compared to forcing those already inside to pass to exit. That is not the intent of the spell, the intent is to stop people from approaching past where the spell is placed, which anyone can do without issue if grease can be 5ft stepped out of (and, apparently as everyone is arguing, inside of to inside of). The spell is useless with your interpretation or a mild nuisance (as 1st level spells are supposed to be) with my interpretation.

Your interpretation is now making empty air difficult terrain. Seriously?

All Grease does, when cast on an area, is make that area slippery to move within. That is ALL it does.

You can 5' step out of it fine, just like you can 5' step out of the border square of any type of hindrance. The game does NOT, repeat NOT, say that you are in the middle of your 5' square, you are just within a 5' square. Indeed, being in the middle is contraindicated by some special abilities that races have, like the swarming ability that Ratfolk come with.

All Grease does is make the area it covers slippery. Stepping into the slippery area gives you a chance of falling. Moving from one slippery square to another gives you a chance of falling. Moving from a slippery area to a non-slippery area is fine.

Do you also rule that someone standing up from prone in a greased square has to make the Acrobatics check?

Just as a side question, you have a small pit, fits in a 10' area, 2 squares by 2 squares big, with a small ledge around the edges. If someone uses Acrobatics to get past the pit on the ledge, is he flat footed only while crossing the ledge, or his whole turn, including the squares with complete floors on both sides of the pit?

Seriously, in the right circumstances, Grease can be an awesome spell, even at higher levels, against the right targets, or in the correct area. Grease under a golem, for example, is a fairly effective use, golems tend to have low Dex and low Reflex saves. Used on a bottleneck, it can cause your opponents issues as they try to come up on you.

Use it on a small area of a bare floor, and yes, everyone will go around it, unless you can use some tactics to increase its effectiveness. And there are tactics which can be used, even in those circumstances, to make it more useful.

But, please, don't make it so powerful that it shouldn't be a first level spell. There are already several spells in the first level lists that are quite overpowered for that level of spell.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Nope. It's far from useless. Your working understanding of the spell seems to be missing the fact that if it's cast on you, you have to save or fall. If it's not cast on you, you make acro checks if you cross it.
Oh no, a jump check or spend an extra 5ft to go around, again how is this not useless compared to forcing those already inside to pass to exit. That is not the intent of the spell, the intent is to stop people from approaching past where the spell is placed, which anyone can do without issue if grease can be 5ft stepped out of (and, apparently as everyone is arguing, inside of to inside of). The spell is useless with your interpretation or a mild nuisance (as 1st level spells are supposed to be) with my interpretation.

I don't think anyone is saying you can 5ft within it, since it takes up 10ft of movement when walking within it. But I am saying that you can 5ft out of it. Hence why you only cast it on people you believe will fail the Reflex save.

Battlefield control is one of the strongest abilities of magic. Put a 10ft square of terrain that the enemy can't cross and you control where he can go and what position he can occupy.

A golem is not going to make the acrobatics check. A heavily armored opponent isn't likely to do so either.

You can't exiting it either as you are still subject to its effects if you start inside, otherwise simply moving from inside the edge to out would not require an acrobatics check.


kinevon wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Nope. It's far from useless. Your working understanding of the spell seems to be missing the fact that if it's cast on you, you have to save or fall. If it's not cast on you, you make acro checks if you cross it.
Oh no, a jump check or spend an extra 5ft to go around, again how is this not useless compared to forcing those already inside to pass to exit. That is not the intent of the spell, the intent is to stop people from approaching past where the spell is placed, which anyone can do without issue if grease can be 5ft stepped out of (and, apparently as everyone is arguing, inside of to inside of). The spell is useless with your interpretation or a mild nuisance (as 1st level spells are supposed to be) with my interpretation.

Your interpretation is now making empty air difficult terrain. Seriously?

All Grease does, when cast on an area, is make that area slippery to move within. That is ALL it does.

You can 5' step out of it fine, just like you can 5' step out of the border square of any type of hindrance. The game does NOT, repeat NOT, say that you are in the middle of your 5' square, you are just within a 5' square. Indeed, being in the middle is contraindicated by some special abilities that races have, like the swarming ability that Ratfolk come with.

All Grease does is make the area it covers slippery. Stepping into the slippery area gives you a chance of falling. Moving from one slippery square to another gives you a chance of falling. Moving from a slippery area to a non-slippery area is fine.

Do you also rule that someone standing up from prone in a greased square has to make the Acrobatics check?

Just as a side question, you have a small pit, fits in a 10' area, 2 squares by 2 squares big, with a small ledge around the edges. If someone uses Acrobatics to get past the pit on the ledge, is he flat footed only while crossing the ledge, or his whole turn, including the squares with...

Strawman: That was in reference to a question about slow, air isn't a surface and can't be greased but there are plenty of reasons why air could be difficult terrain, but since difficult terrain is almost a houserule itself, I say again, we are ignoring difficult terrain.

Should I be allowed to ignore the effects as long as I am leaving the square without slowed speed regardless of 5ft step or double move? No, either way you are slowed for starting in grease and cant spend 10ft with a 5ft step.

Although I definitely would as a house rule and I would defend standing up requiring a check (probably a lower DC), it could be argued in the same way against requiring one to stand up. As RAW I do not defend it, as a logical person I defend checks to stand up. Either way this is not at all the point of the discussion.

If the person moving along the ledge is no longer on the ledge by the end of his turn, he is not flatfooted. If someone had a readied action to hit him while he was on the ledge, then they would target his FF AC since its while he is on the ledge. Once again, besides the point.

Grease is not overpowered for a first level spell by this ruling, its most obvious usage is to put it 5ft in front of your front line (X=empty, 1=ally, 2=caster, 3=baddie, (_)=greased area; X(X)(3)X12) so that the baddie potentially trips so your ally can step up for a +4 to hit for him being prone; the other, also obvious, usages are to slow/stop people chasing you, make an area practically impassable to Fatso the Fighter (not like Fatso can't try to find another way around, furniture surfing anyone?), and to create a weak fire wall on the following turn. Only the fire wall works as intended if 5ft steps out were allowed; clearly it is not intended for the only potential real effects of a spell are an effect that is a widely accepted house rule from ages ago.

Edit: the DCs are also not something that anyone is ever guaranteed to fail, a DC15 is passed by an average human 30% of the time and the average PC 60% (accuracy of estimate not guaranteed) of the time.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
AwesomenessDog wrote:
You can't exiting it either as you are still subject to its effects if you start inside, otherwise simply moving from inside the edge to out would not require an acrobatics check.

Yes, I said earlier that the GM could require the acrobatics check even when the character is stepping out of the grease. But moving at half your speed does not mean it costs two squares of movement to step into the ungreased square. The cost is still 5ft even if you are moving at half speed. So 5ft steps are not against the rules.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:
You can't exiting it either as you are still subject to its effects if you start inside, otherwise simply moving from inside the edge to out would not require an acrobatics check.
Yes, I said earlier that the GM could require the acrobatics check even when the character is stepping out of the grease. But moving at half your speed does not mean it costs two squares of movement to step into the ungreased square. The cost is still 5ft even if you are moving at half speed. So 5ft steps are not against the rules.
AwesomenessDog wrote:
As you expend movement speed to move, being reduced to half speed means every 5ft of movement you spend, you go 5ft, or reworded to go 5ft you must spend 10ft. If it was not an expending basis, you would only be allowed to move in straight lines up to your total speed: wall corner n your way -- sorry, that's a double move? Instead when you spend a move action, you are given (for the sake of argument) 30 "movement tokens" to spend with each token and while under an effect such as slow each token is worth half as much because your speed is slower. (Beyond this, the only difference between effects like slow and terrain costing more is that one is worded to indicate it is an effect on the target and the other so that it is an effect of the terrain. No other mechanical distinction should be made.)

Sovereign Court

Wow. Who needs time stop when you have awesomeness dog grease!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
AwesomenessDog wrote:
As you expend movement speed to move, being reduced to half speed means every 5ft of movement you spend, you go 5ft, or reworded to go 5ft you must spend 10ft. If it was not an expending basis, you would only be allowed to move in straight lines up to your total speed: wall corner n your way -- sorry, that's a double move? Instead when you spend a move action, you are given (for the sake of argument) 30 "movement tokens" to spend with each token and while under an effect such as slow each token is worth half as much because your speed is slower. (Beyond this, the only difference between effects like slow and terrain costing more is that one is worded to indicate it is an effect on the target and the other so that it is an effect of the terrain. No other mechanical distinction should be made.)

No, you get 15 movement tokens while moving under an effect that halves your speed. Difficult terrain actually costs 2 tokens for every 1.


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Wow. Who needs time stop when you have awesomeness dog grease!

Not like timestop's direct combat effectiveness is overplayed at all. Personally I'd rather being helping my allies or the overall battle situation instead of just cheesing my way to my separate dimension but don't let that influence your play style.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:
As you expend movement speed to move, being reduced to half speed means every 5ft of movement you spend, you go 5ft, or reworded to go 5ft you must spend 10ft. If it was not an expending basis, you would only be allowed to move in straight lines up to your total speed: wall corner n your way -- sorry, that's a double move? Instead when you spend a move action, you are given (for the sake of argument) 30 "movement tokens" to spend with each token and while under an effect such as slow each token is worth half as much because your speed is slower. (Beyond this, the only difference between effects like slow and terrain costing more is that one is worded to indicate it is an effect on the target and the other so that it is an effect of the terrain. No other mechanical distinction should be made.)
No, you get 15 movement tokens while moving under an effect that halves your speed. Difficult terrain actually costs 2 tokens for every 1.

So instead of actually being slowed you are just told you cant move at your max speed for the whole action? That's clearly not what is intended by the wording of slow effects and by the normal definition of speed.

Edit: Clarified wording

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
AwesomenessDog wrote:
That's clearly not what is intended by the wording of slow effects and by the normal definition of speed.

It's obviously not clearly the intent if we're arguing about it.


Then how would you defined being slowed in comparison to normal movement, in detail?


Just as a reminder, by what you claim, if one could 5ft step out of grease, since they are still under the effects of grease while stepping out, that means they could still 5ft step from inside to inside of grease with no worry at all.

The Concordance

AwesomenessDog wrote:
Just as a reminder, by what you claim, if one could 5ft step out of grease, since they are still under the effects of grease while stepping out, that means they could still 5ft step from inside to inside of grease with no worry at all.

Some believe that you can 5' step within Grease because it isn't actually difficult terrain from one perspective (that it isn't clearly defined as such).

Most disagree that you take the penalties when stepping out of Grease. The common consensus is that you are not "walking within" Grease when exiting the area (moving from a Greased square to a normal square).


ShieldLawrence wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:
Just as a reminder, by what you claim, if one could 5ft step out of grease, since they are still under the effects of grease while stepping out, that means they could still 5ft step from inside to inside of grease with no worry at all.

Some believe that you can 5' step within Grease because it isn't actually difficult terrain from one perspective (that it isn't clearly defined as such).

Most disagree that you take the penalties when stepping out of Grease. The common consensus is that you are not "walking within" Grease when exiting the area (moving from a Greased square to a normal square).

Yes, I was more point that out to point that his interpretation isn't consistent all the way through, as he has claim you can 5ft step out but not in, but claims that the halfing of speed, which is the effect in question, is what is what prevents the slowing. So now we are out now we temporarily stepping out of RAW into intent to find the original concept (because difficult terrain seems to be the wrench in everyone's arguments).

Sovereign Court

AwesomenessDog wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Wow. Who needs time stop when you have awesomeness dog grease!
Not like timestop's direct combat effectiveness is overplayed at all. Personally I'd rather being helping my allies or the overall battle situation instead of just cheesing my way to my separate dimension but don't let that influence your play style.

and scene...


No need to criticize a person on the Forum, even if you think their ideas are wrong, criticize the ideas; and if it's with convincing arguments, the better.

I think that the definition of Grease is conflictive with the idea of having to pay twice for hampering terrain penalties. I absolutely give that to the people who defend you can 5-Foot-Step out of Grease.

On the other hand, as someone has pointed out, what is the meaning of covering a 2x2 (5-Foot-Square) if you can always get out from it safely in two of the directions?

Maybe the answer to this question is "to force the target to move safely into one specific direction, and not the rest".

Also I want to add that, in most cases that Grease is casted, depending on how your GM rule this particular question you could include or not include your allies in the affected area, so your allies could 5-Foot-Step out of it, and your enemies couldn't persue your allies.

All in all, I'm more inclined to think that the intention of the spell is not allowing the 5-Foot-Step out of it, but, as I said earlier, that in conflictive with the general rules around hamepered movement, so I would apply the specific rule that your movement is hampered if you "walk within" Grease, and the general rule that "you can not take a 5-Foot-Step if your movement is hampered -by difficult terrain-."


5 people marked this as a favorite.

Wait, time out.

Did someone seriously just say time stop is a bad spell?

I think we all need to take 1d4 + 1 rounds to collect our thoughts.


If someone is heading towards you, and you make it so that the only way that can get out of the area they're standing in is take a 5' step backwards, meaning they can't reach you for at least one more turn, that's useful battlefield control.

A large creature with grease directly under them can't 5' step out of grease because it'll still be in grease whichever way it steps.

Allowing 5' step out does not break the spell. It barely makes a difference unless the player doesn't account for it. Whether you apply the Acrobatics check to someone walking out of the grease seems more significant.

Sovereign Court

Most dungeons have 5 foot or 10 foot wide corridors... you cast grease between you and your attackers especially if they're melee; if they want to get to you (and you can stand right at the edge of grease so they don't 5-foot step out) you're at a significant advantage.

It's like some posters think the only battlefield out there is some grand gymnasium and that you *have* to cast this smack dab in the middle of the room...

Sorry to break it to you, but you're never gonna defeat the enemy with just grease (if you're trying to defeat them in combat, that is... ahem...)


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Most dungeons have 5 foot or 10 foot wide corridors... you cast grease between you and your attackers especially if they're melee; if they want to get to you (and you can stand right at the edge of grease so they don't 5-foot step out) you're at a significant advantage.

It's like some posters think the only battlefield out there is some grand gymnasium and that you *have* to cast this smack dab in the middle of the room...

Sorry to break it to you, but you're never gonna defeat the enemy with just grease (if you're trying to defeat them in combat, that is... ahem...)

Did it seem like I was saying that was the only strategy I thought necessary? First I pointed out my overall strategy, not one spell "I prefer to help...". Second I never claimed it was an end all be all, just that its intended purpose is to keep people from moving out of it. Third, I limited the scenarios pointed out to all potential strategies that would work validly in them in either case and pointed out why they would work one way or not the other. I specifically pointed out several uses for when side to side movement isn't allowed, I also pointed out how for anyone not already in grease, they can jump over it for a far easier DC than the save DC is. The strategy's effectiveness is not prevalent with one ruling but is with another.

I also pointed out time stop is "not as good as everyone thinks it is" not "its a bad spell, mmmk?" Don't strawman, attack the real argument, not a side comment, if you want to defeat someone's point. Timestop is a 9th level spell for reason, but its not that great of 9th level spell, in fact its really only great for self buffs, something, that by the time of 9th level spells, you should have already done research and cast way in advance.

Blakmane wrote:

Wait, time out.

Did someone seriously just say time stop is a bad spell?

I think we all need to take 1d4 + 1 rounds to collect our thoughts.

Reread what was said. That seems to be an issue about this thread.


Matthew Downie wrote:

If someone is heading towards you, and you make it so that the only way that can get out of the area they're standing in is take a 5' step backwards, meaning they can't reach you for at least one more turn, that's useful battlefield control.

A large creature with grease directly under them can't 5' step out of grease because it'll still be in grease whichever way it steps.

Allowing 5' step out does not break the spell. It barely makes a difference unless the player doesn't account for it. Whether you apply the Acrobatics check to someone walking out of the grease seems more significant.

Except it does drastically change the way its worded, it means that you can get out with no effort and all they get is an extra round if they are running away, a short reprieve if they intend on still fighting, or no battle field control if it doesn't prevent 5ft stepping because now those inside can shift around to get better placement on those outside.

Numarak wrote:
Also I want to add that, in most cases that Grease is casted, depending on how your GM rule this particular question you could include or not include your allies in the affected area, so your allies could 5-Foot-Step out of it, and your enemies couldn't persue your allies.

This isn't true since Grease is a conjuration spell, meaning the stuff is literally there for the extent of the spell, whether you allies want it to be or not.

Something new I just found: when you take a 5ft step, your movement speed isn't your normal movement speed (drawing from previous argument, 30ft) for the round, its 5ft for the round. So when you are under the effects of slow, or other effects that half your movement speed (grease), and you decide to 5ft step, your movement speed is no longer 5ft, its 2.5ft disallowing a 5ft step by rounding rules.

Edit: Clarified wording in last paragraph.


Tagged


AwesomenessDog wrote:
Double movement cost is half speed, just worded different.

It's not just a matter of wording - they are conceptually and mechanically different. To see the mechanical difference, imagine a creature (an elf, say) with a speed of 30 feet (six squares) in the middle of an open area. Suppose the elf's speed is halved, to 15 feet (three squares). The elf takes a single move, going two squares orthogonally in a straight line and then one diagonally (eg east, then east, then north-east) - or any other sequence that gets to the same square (eg east, north-east, east or north-east, east, east). Now suppose that, instead of the elf's speed being halved, each square counts as two squares of movement (and diagonal moves count as three squares). The elf (with a speed equivalent to six squares) wants to get to the same square as before - but this is now impossible with a single move (since 2 + 2 + 3 = 7).

AwesomenessDog wrote:
Grease encompasses difficult terrain and has more effects.

That's not the case - they each have a distinct set of effects that overlap only slightly.

AwesomenessDog wrote:
Beyond semantics, I see no reason why a 5ft step is not affected by movement penalties, and you can not take a 2.5ft step out of a square as a small+ sized creature.

The effect that "movement penalties" have on the Take 5-Foot Step action are spelled out in the rules for that action, here. These are "You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn't hampered by difficult terrain or darkness" and "Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can't take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature." These two sentences cover being penalised for moving through difficult terrain, and being penalised for having a low speed. The second one makes it quite explicit that a 5-foot step is only prohibited when your speed is 5 feet or less (and, thus, is allowed for the elf in the example above with a speed halved to 15 feet).


Quote:
Your interpretation is now making empty air difficult terrain. Seriously?

If somebody argues that moving from within grease to within grease = no 5-foot-step (due to saying that moving half speed MAKES it difficult terrain), then I think they would be obligated to conclude that empty air can be difficult terrain, too, since the fly skill describes moving at half speed while moving through empty air in all kinds of circumstances. For example, 180 degree turns (you only move 5 feet back the other way, but spend 10ft of movement).

So when you make a 180 degree turn, if half speed is what causally creates/defines difficult terrain (not just the other way around), then you are committed to concluding as well that empty air can in fact also be difficult terrain.

Personally I don't really care much and I'm not really pushing either agenda. Just pointing out that that is indeed an interesting and valid seeming argument.

Grand Lodge

Difficult terrain is not half speed, it is double cost.

Half speed does not increase cost, it reduces how fast you can move.

As someone pointed out, difficult terrain and half movement speed can have different results on how and where someone can move.

In difficult terrain, a diagonal move costs 3 squares of movement.
At half speed, diagonals still cost 5'/10' movement, but you have less movement available.

Is someone in regular medium or heavy armor's speed reduced because they are in difficult terrain, or due to encumbrance?
Can someone in heavy armor take a 5' step?

Could a Cleric with the Travel Domain use Agile Feet to move normally through Grease?

Agile Feet (Su) wrote:
As a free action, you can gain increased mobility for 1 round. For the next round, you ignore all difficult terrain and do not take any penalties for moving through it. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.

Huh. As a side question, how much of Slow's effect would be negated by the Liberation ability from the Liberation Domain?

Liberation (Su) wrote:
You have the ability to ignore impediments to your mobility. For a number of rounds per day equal to your cleric level, you can move normally regardless of magical effects that impede movement, as if you were affected by freedom of movement. This effect occurs automatically as soon as it applies. These rounds do not need to be consecutive.
Slow wrote:
An affected creature moves and attacks at a drastically slowed rate. Creatures affected by this spell are staggered and can take only a single move action or standard action each turn, but not both (nor may it take full-round actions). Additionally, it takes a –1 penalty on attack rolls, AC, and Reflex saves. A slowed creature moves at half its normal speed (round down to the next 5-foot increment), which affects the creature's jumping distance as normal for decreased speed.


AwesomenessDog wrote:


As you expend movement speed to move, being reduced to half speed means every 5ft of movement you spend, you go 5ft, or reworded to go 5ft you must spend 10ft. If it was not an expending basis, you would only be allowed to move in straight lines up to your total speed: wall corner n your way -- sorry, that's a double move? Instead when you spend a move action, you are given (for the sake of argument) 30 "movement tokens" to spend with each token and while under an effect such as slow each token is worth half as much because your speed is slower. (Beyond this, the only difference between effects like...

So, you didn't actually answer my question.

The rules tell us that medium and heavy armor slow a character down. Would you, in your games, prevent a character wearing medium or heavy armor from taking a 5' step?

Grand Lodge

Actually, since they do different things, with different effects, you could cast grease on an area of difficult terrain, like steep stairs...

Half movement, and double movement cost...


bbangerter wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:


As you expend movement speed to move, being reduced to half speed means every 5ft of movement you spend, you go 5ft, or reworded to go 5ft you must spend 10ft. If it was not an expending basis, you would only be allowed to move in straight lines up to your total speed: wall corner n your way -- sorry, that's a double move? Instead when you spend a move action, you are given (for the sake of argument) 30 "movement tokens" to spend with each token and while under an effect such as slow each token is worth half as much because your speed is slower. (Beyond this, the only difference between effects like...

So, you didn't actually answer my question.

The rules tell us that medium and heavy armor slow a character down. Would you, in your games, prevent a character wearing medium or heavy armor from taking a 5' step?

I did answer, I said it changes the base speed.

Kinevon, If someone has something like what you described/similar in effects to freedom of movement/prevent movement penalties, of course they could 5ft step in, around, out of grease. That's what the effect says.

Kinevon and Callum,On movement half vs double cost, the only difference is the misinterpretation that makes people think you can 5ft step while movement halved: everything else, the difference is there already just in a different form, but with 5ft step, people argue that if my normal speed is 30 and I am in half movement, then I can 5ft step because it only uses 5 out of my 15ft of movement; this is incorrect as while 5ft stepping, due to the fact that your movement speed is limited to only those 5ft for the round, when it gets halved, you can no longer 5ft step because 2.5ft isn't enough for a 5ft step. Now that we have shown that the only (illusionary) mechanic keeping half speed and double movement from being the same mechanical effect is false, we can conclude that "besides semantics, Half speed and double cost are the same thing."

The Concordance

AwesomenessDog wrote:
bbangerter wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:


As you expend movement speed to move, being reduced to half speed means every 5ft of movement you spend, you go 5ft, or reworded to go 5ft you must spend 10ft. If it was not an expending basis, you would only be allowed to move in straight lines up to your total speed: wall corner n your way -- sorry, that's a double move? Instead when you spend a move action, you are given (for the sake of argument) 30 "movement tokens" to spend with each token and while under an effect such as slow each token is worth half as much because your speed is slower. (Beyond this, the only difference between effects like...

So, you didn't actually answer my question.

The rules tell us that medium and heavy armor slow a character down. Would you, in your games, prevent a character wearing medium or heavy armor from taking a 5' step?

I did answer, I said it changes the base speed.

Kinevon, If someone has something like what you described/similar in effects to freedom of movement/prevent movement penalties, of course they could 5ft step in, around, out of grease. That's what the effect says.

Kinevon and Callum,On movement half vs double cost, the only difference is the misinterpretation that makes people think you can 5ft step while movement halved: everything else, the difference is there already just in a different form, but with 5ft step, people argue that if my normal speed is 30 and I am in half movement, then I can 5ft step because it only uses 5 out of my 15ft of movement; this is incorrect as while 5ft stepping, due to the fact that your movement speed is limited to only those 5ft for the round, when it gets halved, you can no longer 5ft step because 2.5ft isn't enough for a 5ft step. Now that we have shown that the only (illusionary) mechanic keeping half speed and double movement from being the same mechanical effect is false, we can conclude that "besides semantics, Half speed and double cost are the same thing."

By your reasoning, a character in medium armor cannot 5' step because he is moving at two-thirds his normal speed. He "can no longer 5ft step because [3.33]ft isn't enough for a 5ft step." This is not a correct interpretation, as moving at a slower-than-normal speed is not the same as movement costing double.


ShieldLawrence wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:
bbangerter wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:


As you expend movement speed to move, being reduced to half speed means every 5ft of movement you spend, you go 5ft, or reworded to go 5ft you must spend 10ft. If it was not an expending basis, you would only be allowed to move in straight lines up to your total speed: wall corner n your way -- sorry, that's a double move? Instead when you spend a move action, you are given (for the sake of argument) 30 "movement tokens" to spend with each token and while under an effect such as slow each token is worth half as much because your speed is slower. (Beyond this, the only difference between effects like...

So, you didn't actually answer my question.

The rules tell us that medium and heavy armor slow a character down. Would you, in your games, prevent a character wearing medium or heavy armor from taking a 5' step?

I did answer, I said it changes the base speed.

Kinevon, If someone has something like what you described/similar in effects to freedom of movement/prevent movement penalties, of course they could 5ft step in, around, out of grease. That's what the effect says.

Kinevon and Callum,On movement half vs double cost, the only difference is the misinterpretation that makes people think you can 5ft step while movement halved: everything else, the difference is there already just in a different form, but with 5ft step, people argue that if my normal speed is 30 and I am in half movement, then I can 5ft step because it only uses 5 out of my 15ft of movement; this is incorrect as while 5ft stepping, due to the fact that your movement speed is limited to only those 5ft for the round, when it gets halved, you can no longer 5ft step because 2.5ft isn't enough for a 5ft step. Now that we have shown that the only (illusionary) mechanic keeping half speed and double movement from being the same mechanical effect is false, we can conclude that "besides semantics, Half speed and double cost are the same thing."

...

Reread the first response again, I said it changes the base speed, not gives a speed penalty. The numbers may be 2/3rds rounded down in all cases; unless encumbrance says "reduced by X" instead of just "reduced" then it's a change instead of penalty, and since it doesn't list a mathematical mechanic but a chart, it is a change in base speed.


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AwesomenessDog wrote:
Reread what was said. That seems to be an issue about...

I just reread it, and all I saw was a bunch of hairs and a lumber axe?

The Concordance

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Grease also does not state that it gives a movement penalty, just that you can move through it at half speed. In any case, moving five feet while encumbered is the same as moving five feet while slowed is the same as moving five feet in Grease. It's all five feet and it costs five feet to perform, even if these different situations restrict you to move at different fractions of your base speed.

Only when a square costs double/triple/whatever to move through does 5 feet of movement cost something other than 5 feet.

Grease does not increase the movement cost of squares.

Sovereign Court

I'll add stealth at half speed and acrobatics at half speed to that last post. Those also do not prevent you to 5-foot step.

Sovereign Court

Ssyvan wrote:
Question: Can you make a 5' step out of Grease?

the prd says yes based on the strict reading of 5-foot step:

"You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.

You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn't hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can't take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature."

That's it: difficult terrain, darkness and base speed of 5 feet or less are the only show stoppers. Doing anything more to restrict your players on this enters the dickish GM territory.


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Ssyvan wrote:
Question: Can you make a 5' step out of Grease?

the prd says yes based on the strict reading of 5-foot step:

"You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.

You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn't hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can't take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature."

That's it: difficult terrain, darkness and base speed of 5 feet or less are the only show stoppers. Doing anything more to restrict your players on this enters the dickish GM territory.

Interesting.

So a character can 5' step past an obstacle which would normally cost 2 squares to cross?


Ssyvan wrote:
Question: Can you make a 5' step out of Grease?

Absolutely, so long as the square your entering is not greased.

If your asking if you can make a 5' step while IN grease I would agree that you cannot take a 5' step when movement is halved unless you have some means to take a 10' step instead. Then it would still require the same save to stay on your feet as any other movement within the confines of the spell.

The Concordance

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Byakko wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Ssyvan wrote:
Question: Can you make a 5' step out of Grease?

the prd says yes based on the strict reading of 5-foot step:

"You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.

You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn't hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can't take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature."

That's it: difficult terrain, darkness and base speed of 5 feet or less are the only show stoppers. Doing anything more to restrict your players on this enters the dickish GM territory.

Interesting.

So a character can 5' step past an obstacle which would normally cost 2 squares to cross?

There is a difference between costing more than 1 square and moving at a slower speed than full.

Difficult terrain, obstacles, etc., cost 2 squares per square of movement. Cannot 5ft. Step. It costs 10ft to move 5ft.

Moving at a slower speed because Slow, Grease, encumbrance, etc., normally cost 1 square per square of movement. You can 5ft step. It costs 5ft of movement to move 5ft, you just cannot exceed 15'/20'/whatever if you choose a move action instead.

They are separate game mechanics. Similar in nature but different in execution.


How far can you move in the following scenario?

Grease ties the half speed to an acrobatics check, so that if you're making an acrobatics check you're moving half speed.

Grease wrote:
A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Acrobatics check.

If you're making that Acrobatics check then you're moving at half speed.

Let's assume you're starting in a greased square and you're spending a move action to move out. Let's assume you've passed your acrobatics check and you aren't prone.

-EDIT-

What I'm getting at, is that you're only moving at "half normal speed" when moving through or within Grease. Once you're out, why would you need to continue moving at half speed?

In other words, wouldn't you move 25' total and not 15'?


ShieldLawrence wrote:
Byakko wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Ssyvan wrote:
Question: Can you make a 5' step out of Grease?

the prd says yes based on the strict reading of 5-foot step:

"You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.

You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn't hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can't take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature."

That's it: difficult terrain, darkness and base speed of 5 feet or less are the only show stoppers. Doing anything more to restrict your players on this enters the dickish GM territory.

Interesting.

So a character can 5' step past an obstacle which would normally cost 2 squares to cross?

There is a difference between costing more than 1 square and moving at a slower speed than full.

Difficult terrain, obstacles, etc., cost 2 squares per square of movement. Cannot 5ft. Step. It costs 10ft to move 5ft.

Moving at a slower speed because Slow, Grease, encumbrance, etc., normally cost 1 square per square of movement. You can 5ft step. It costs 5ft of movement to move 5ft, you just cannot exceed 15'/20'/whatever if you choose a move action instead.

They are separate game mechanics. Similar in nature but different in execution.

Grease's impact on movement isn't the same as Slow's. Slow causes the player's movement to be halved. Grease causes movement in its area to be halved.

Slow wrote:
A slowed creature moves at half its normal speed (round down to the next 5-foot increment), which affects the creature's jumping distance as normal for decreased speed.

Bolded the sections where Slow is affecting the player's movement speed directly.

Grease doesn't do that.

Grease wrote:
A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Acrobatics check.

Note that the walk is at half normal speed.

Because of that the creature can potentially move up to 25' feet that round. And all movement within the area of grease is halved.

So we can't compare Slow and Armor Encumbrance because they're different things.

The Concordance

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In both Grease and Slow, the movement cost of 1 square remains 1 square. Until that changes, 5ft will cost 5ft and a 5ft step will be possible for characters with a modified speed that allows it.


So how far can you move in the scenario above?

The Concordance

Ssyvan wrote:
So how far can you move in the scenario above?

You can move 15' because you are limited to half your speed.

I've known many GMs who will let you move half speed for portions of a move action, such as only walking for one Grease square or tumbling though one square, but this method isn't outlined in the rules as far as I know.


Grease says you only need to move at half speed when moving within or through, once you're outside of it you can continue moving full speed.

Saying movement is halved within or through and area is the same as saying it costs twice as much to move in that area.

Can you point me to something that says those movement penalties are still applied outside the area of Grease?

Sovereign Court

Byakko wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Ssyvan wrote:
Question: Can you make a 5' step out of Grease?

the prd says yes based on the strict reading of 5-foot step:

"You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.

You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn't hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can't take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature."

That's it: difficult terrain, darkness and base speed of 5 feet or less are the only show stoppers. Doing anything more to restrict your players on this enters the dickish GM territory.

Interesting.

So a character can 5' step past an obstacle which would normally cost 2 squares to cross?

Absolutely. A 5-foot step is a free action that can only be done if you haven't moved any distance in that same round. To ease the pain of imagination, you can view this as a free one square re-positioning each round. The heat of battle... where people are usually on some kind of stance, circling their enemies, not standing straight and immobile like picket fences. In karate and taekwondo an important part of fighting is mastering those sidesteps, turning your body into the enemy to protect your vital areas...

Sovereign Court

Gilfalas wrote:
Ssyvan wrote:
Question: Can you make a 5' step out of Grease?

Absolutely, so long as the square your entering is not greased.

If your asking if you can make a 5' step while IN grease I would agree that you cannot take a 5' step when movement is halved unless you have some means to take a 10' step instead. Then it would still require the same save to stay on your feet as any other movement within the confines of the spell.

If you make the DC 10 acrobatic check at the beginning of your turn, I would say you can 5-foot step from one greased square to another greased square.

Sovereign Court

ShieldLawrence wrote:

There is a difference between costing more than 1 square and moving at a slower speed than full.

Difficult terrain, obstacles, etc., cost 2 squares per square of movement. Cannot 5ft. Step. It costs 10ft to move 5ft.

Moving at a slower speed because Slow, Grease, encumbrance, etc., normally cost 1 square per square of movement. You can 5ft step. It costs 5ft of movement to move 5ft, you just cannot exceed 15'/20'/whatever if you choose a move action instead.

They are separate game mechanics. Similar in nature but different in execution.

Bingo. 3 things stop the 5-foot step: (repeat after me)

Difficult Terrain
Darkness
Base Speed of 5 ft or less

(DT.D.BS5-)

Sovereign Court

ShieldLawrence wrote:

In both Grease and Slow, the movement cost of 1 square remains 1 square. Until that changes, 5ft will cost 5ft and a 5ft step will be possible for characters with a modified speed that allows it.

Yes!

Sovereign Court

ShieldLawrence wrote:
Ssyvan wrote:
So how far can you move in the scenario above?

You can move 15' because you are limited to half your speed.

I've known many GMs who will let you move half speed for portions of a move action, such as only walking for one Grease square or tumbling though one square, but this method isn't outlined in the rules as far as I know.

It was in 3.5... the transition to PFRPG lost some wording on that. It is nonsensical for a character with a speed of 60 feet to tumble past an enemy and keep doing back flips for another 25 feet distance... for no reason... unless he's trying to show off...

The Concordance

Ssyvan wrote:

Grease says you only need to move at half speed when moving within or through, once you're outside of it you can continue moving full speed.

Saying movement is halved within or through and area is the same as saying it costs twice as much to move in that area.

Can you point me to something that says those movement penalties are still applied outside the area of Grease?

I cannot. The rules are vague about going half your speed for portions of a move action.

The rules do not state that half speed is the same as costing twice as much. Saying it does not make it so. Similar effects are not automatically the same effect unless rules text states otherwise.

There is no rules text that explicitly shows that moving at half speed (acrobatics, stealth, Grease, Slow) is the same as costing multiple squares (difficult terrain, second diagonals).

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