Re: Paris attacks

[Angstspawn]

Dear Liz,

I just saw you locked a thread because it's "advocating for violence against people and religious groups has no place on Paizo's forums".

It's true, it could be advocated that this thread was about using violence against people and a religious group. Lets be even more precise, that thread was for some posts arguing about killing human being belonging to DAESH; DAESH masquerading itself as a Muslim, therefore as a religious, group.

I do agree writing about killing humans is, at least, bad if not evil. And therefore can't be tolerated. I've no doubt you think you do your job right, but were you understanding what this thread was really about? I don't say were you reading it, I'm sure you did, I'm saying understanding.

DAESH is a group that define itself as religious. A group that (besides occasional international terrorist acts) is abducting an killing minorities, selling people as slaves (boys & girls age 1 to 9 yo for $165), harvesting organs from people they kill to sell them, raping and transforming women not sharing their belief in sex-slaves and supporting the wedding with 13 yo girls. I won't mention burning war prisoners alive, mass executions and beheadings.
Even Al-Qaida (an organization well-known for its kind heart and gentleness) consider them too extreme!

A religious group? It depends on what you consider a religion is. Muslim? Not if you consider the Muslim world and scholars see them as an abomination. And most probably now, because of them Muslims are shunned when not discriminated all over the world.

Of course it's not to Paizo to solve DAESH problem and, definitely your everyday's life is not much disturbed by them. I've no doubt you do your job and, can't do anything against it. I could be ironical mentioning the people driving the Jews to extermination camps were arguing the same, but it'd be mean.

So, back to my introduction words, I do agree that wishing people death is bad and ugly. But I'm telling you, I wish these people dead, and the thread you locked was just about how appropriate or inappropriate various reactions could be as a real and definitive solution. And people were offering a broad range of solutions, not only bombings.
As you read, I wished DAESH eradication. As you do you job well I've no doubt you will inform the competent authorities that someone in your forum is supporting not only violence against terrorists but their death. If your justice wants to hear about it, I will surrender myself. It'll be my pride!

Now, you know that many people (men, women, children) you never heard about suffer everyday a hell they don't deserve. What is your message to them, "Please don't scream to loud, you're disturbing my work?"
There's another way to support evil, without doing anything, it's closing your eyes or sometime closing threads.

Best regards,
Guy

-------------------
Killing minorities:
https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/19/iraq-isis-abducting-killing-expelling-m inorities)
-------------------
Extortion:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/05/19/world/middleeast/isis-finance s.html?_r=1
-------------------
Slavery:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-08-03/sex-slaves-sold-by-islami c-state-the-younger-the-better
-------------------
Organs harvesting:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2958220/UN-urged-investigate-ISIS-s -bloody-trade-human-organs-Iraqi-ambassador-reveals-doctors-executed-not-ha rvesting-body-parts.html

[thejeff]

Honestly, I wasn't happy with that thread lock either. There's a difference between sort of randomly "advocating for violence" against religious groups and debating mainstream public policy issues. We are in a situation where a broad expansion of the war in Syria & Iraq is possible and being called for by major political figures. That's worth talking about.

OTOH, this post and the attack on Liz and Paizo go way too far.

[Ambrosia Slaad]

thejeff wrote:

this post and the attack on Liz and Paizo go way too far.

That's much more polite than I would have phrased it. >:(

[Angstspawn]

Jeff, it happens we disagree and honestly if we were agreeing on everything the discussion would be pointless.

I can understand the need to close a thread when people insult each other or, when they stigmatise a religion or group, but there wasn't any such thing on that thread. I could deeply disagree with some posts, found some answer sharp but it was nothing but debate and, all together that thread was treating a broad way a, not only sensitive, but important topic.

I'm not attacking Liz for who she could be (I've no doubt she's some respectable person) but for what she did (ending a thread about how to answer terrorists and terrorism).
Paizo is honest enough to accept (often unjustified) critics about their products, so I don't understand she locked a thread for a critic (even violent) against terrorists.

And invoking "advocating violence" against DAESH as a reason is even indecent.
I was sharp but not going too far, what's going to far (whichever the way we think we should stop it) is what's happening inside DAESH's controlled territory.

[Imbicatus]

This is why I hope political threads get pulled from this board. While I agree this is an important issue, this is not the place for it.

Responding in this manner to a locked thread is also extremely inappropriate for this community.

If you have a problem with the moderation of the boards, address it with them via email privately.

[Ambrosia Slaad]

Angstspawn wrote:

I'm not attacking Liz for who she could be (I've no doubt she's some respectable person) but for what she did (ending a thread about how to answer terrorists and terrorism).

You don't attack Liz, period. Not for who she is, not for locking a thread. Not for any reason. Full stop.

You're angry? You're having red thoughts? Fine. You're human, and you're far from the only one. But if you want to lash out at innocent people who won't let you throw a tantrum? Do it on Facebook, or your Tumblr, or Blogspot, or Wordpress account. Don't do it here, and don't blame Liz because you can't be civil.

[Toxic Yesterday, Earth Avenger]

Remember kids!

Don't be jerks! Moderators are people too!

[Thornborn]

Hey, you know who gets to make the call of what's cool to discuss here on this free forum run by a game company?

Not you.

Please do not interfere with staff as they operate this vehicle.

It's too bad if you were just about to cure cancer or solve terrorism. But if you're THAT GOOD at what you're doing, if your words are so important you have to oppose Liz doing her job, you need to go say them somewhere else. This is not the place for such thoughts.

It's just a game forum.

[Wei Ji the Learner]

*looks at the troll bait, shrugs, tosses some pennies in the cup*

Look, from a legality viewpoint ALONE, if Paizo allows someone to post such things on their forums, then they can open themselves up to intense scrutiny from not only the Department of Justice, but also various other legal bodies.

There's no argument that there are some bad people in the world.

There's also no argument that something needs to be done (and do NOT construe this as advocating violence either by omission or commission).

That being said, some of us can still remember the gamer 'witch-hunts' of the late '80's. Yes, these were a thing. When you'd be questioned by police on suspicion of 'being a D&D player'. Self-regulating our community with respectful and considerate moderation is a huge step forwards, if you ask me.

[Irontruth]

Imbicatus wrote:

This is why I hope political threads get pulled from this board. While I agree this is an important issue, this is not the place for it.

I like discussing these things. I like discussing them with people I have something in common with, like an unrelated interest or hobby (as well as actually discussing that hobby too). I hope they don't go away.

There are literally dozens of threads I have no interest in on these forums every day. I really only look at about 6-8 sub-forums. I do think that as a board culture, we tend to get off-topic (not related to the sub-forum) quite often. I think if we ourselves policed that better and stayed on topic it would prevent the stuff people don't want to see from spilling into threads they want to read. I know I've been an offender of that in the past, though I'm trying to improve.

I hope the forums don't become too narrowly defined. I would like to see the culture of how we post and where improve though.

[Angstspawn]

I'm shocked that Liz locked a thread, that doing so she was making DAESH a religious or any other sort of group against who violence shouldn't be advocated.

"I can't be civil" it's that you say Ambrosia... What's not civil, that I tell these people gave a price for sale for a 1 year old child? That I don't accept someone locks this out?
You see you're more shocked by my words than by their acts. Most probably it's not your problem, even better... it's not here the place to speak about it, here is a sanctuary where screams shouldn't be heard.

You know, most Jewish inside camps were thinking people didn't know about their fate, didn't know how inhumanly they were treated, that if the world knew, the would not accept it, the world would not tolerate it.
They were wrong, given the world knew the world hadn't move much.

It's what angers me, locking that thread is just one more proof that we do not consider that people like us, part of what we are. We're sad to know what happened but their suffering is like another's specie disease, their ill-fate can't reach us. It belongs to them and can't apply to us. We don't have empathy for them, just contempt.

I envy you Ambrosia, in the world you're living in I'm what's most outraging and rude. You're living in the best of the world, you're "lucky".
I'm passionate, maybe even uneducated, and I was naive enough to believe that anywhere you'll find yourself in The Land of The Free, there'll be a place -even a virtual one- to try to find how to make this world better.

Maybe I blame Liz for showing me how naive I am...

[captain yesterday]

Wow! You're really going for the full ban aren't you.

[Gorbacz]

Well at least my two temp bans were results of gaming arguments, getting the permashaft for politics on a RPG forum sounds like a rather silly achievement :p

[Sarcasm Dragon]

I strongly encourage violence against all dragons who lack the Sarcasm subtype!

[GM_Beernorg]

Angst, I get where you are coming from, and the truth is ugly and horrible, but does that mean we should avoid it, no. However, going after Liz personally gains you and the issue nothing constructive. Liz is just doing her job, and upholding the boards policies.

Also, I hate to say it, but allot of Americans (I am one, so I feel I can say this) actually do not want to know how ugly and brutal the world is. We want our Starbucks coffee, our comfortable consumerist lifestyle, and consider anything that is more than a state away (let alone a continent away) to be "their" problem. Does that mean it is just "their" problem, no, it does not. As a nation we should be more aware, more active, more informed, but we are not. (please not I am NOT saying anyone in this threat has their head buried in the sand in any way, shape, or form)

It is a raw deal all around, but how we conduct ourselves, both here in virtual land, and in the RW defines us. I commend you for having a passionate zeal regarding what is, and likely will continue to be, the defining issue of our time. Thing is, letting all that hate and anger taint your interactions with everyday normal folk (like Liz) in a way just plays right into what Daesh and all extremists want, division, fear, anger, hate, and confusion.

All I am saying really, is save the righteous fervour for those who deserve it, getting yourself banned and going after Liz don't help you, or anyone else.

[Chris Lambertz]

Locking. At no point is it acceptable to make a thread with the full intention of making personally abusive posts about any community member, let alone an employee who is simply doing their job. You may disagree with the decisions or policies laid out by my team or by other moderators (and bring that feedback to our attention through the Website Feedback forum or our [e-mail] address), but understand that the decisions we make for our community are in its best interest, not personal soapboxes made by our employees. This is exactly the kind of activity we don't need.

EDIT: I've adjusted the thread title to be slightly less baiting so we can avoid further drama.