Changing the size of an item size to fit within a spells purpose?


Rules Questions


So a Mage in my party has the idea that he can use shrink item on a Ballista bolt to the size of a crossbow bolt.

Now, he's got it in his mind that he can use
LAUNCH BOLT

Spell Description.
"The crossbow bolt in your hand glows a bright red, then flies off at your foe. You cast this spell on a crossbow bolt, causing it to fly at a target of your choice as if you had fired it from a light crossbow, using a ranged attack roll. The bolt has a range increment of 80 feet. Any properties of the crossbow bolt (such as magical abilities, masterwork quality, and so on) or feats you possess (such as Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus [light crossbow], and so on) apply. Drawing a bolt for this spell is a free action.
Material Component: The crossbow
bolt to be fired (1 sp). "

So he casts shrink item on the Ballista bolt to the size of a crossbow bolt. Now this spell works for Crossbow bolts only and not Shrunken down Ballista bolts right? Or am I wrong? Can this spell tell the difference between a shrunken down bolt to a regular crossbow bolt? I have been wondering this...

I like to interpret spells for their intended purpose but altering an object to meet a spells criteria.... I mean a shrunken down Ballista bolt is still a Ballista bolt and a shrunken down crossbow bolt is still a crossbow bolt, no?

How would you guys rule this because I can't find any rules or fluff on this stuff. I'm more inclined to not let the Launch Bolt spell be called Launch Ballista bolt spell according to my mage.


Strict interpretation of rules will give you sufficient cause to say no. A ballista is not just a large crossbow. If it was it would be Crossbow, Huge. The spell description calls for the 'crossbow bolt to be fired' not the bolt to be fired.

That said, it is also not unreasonable to use your DM arbitration to say that Ballistae are to all intents and purposes hug crossbows and that a shrunken Ballistae bolt is the same as a crossbow bolt. For balance purposes 3rd ed (or maybe 2nd) had a spell called pebble to Boulder that allowed a pebble to be flung that turned massive. It was a fourth level spell. You're talking about using a 1st and 3rd level spell for this. It seems pretty reasonable to me.

Alternatively teach him to use a sling and use shrink item on a pebble.

Liberty's Edge

RAW I don't think it woerk, but more importantly:
What is he trying to accomplish? A shrunken ballista bolt throw with that spell will do exactly the same damage of a regular crossbow bolt.

I don't see any purpose in his actions.

Edit:
Material Component: The crossbow bolt to be fired (1 sp)

Material components are specific. A shrunken ballista bolt isn't a crossbow bolt.

Further edit:
from what product come that spell? I can't find it.


A medium Light Crossbow does 1d8 damage. Period. It doesn't matter what you fire out of it. The spell says "causing it to fly at a target of your choice as if you had fired it from a light crossbow". Therefore, no matter what you use as ammunition for this spell, it will do 1d8.

Based on that, I have no problem with using altered objects to be launched by this spell, as long as the magic of the spell might consider the object to be a crossbow bolt - so shrunken ballistae bolts, enlarged darts, even shortbow arrows, whatever. If it looks like a crossbow bolt enough that it might fool a child, then maybe the magic would work with it.

Why?

This spell doesn't look very powerful at all. I mean, why doesn't the guy just carry a light crossbow and use that spell slot for something better? But if he is going to waste a spell slot on this, I'd at least make sure he can use it when he wants to, even if that means he's using other magic to alter inappropriate ammunition into something appropriate enough.

But it still only does 1d8 damage.

Probably not RAW, but the other responses covered that. Speaking of RAW, where is this spell found?


Shrink item can be cancelled with a command word. Speaking a word is a free action. I assumed the guy wanted to launch the bolt and have it become a ballista bolt in mid air.

Personally I wouldn't have a problem with this for the reasons given in my last post.

Liberty's Edge

The Sword wrote:

Shrink item can be cancelled with a command word. Speaking a word is a free action. I assumed the guy wanted to launch the bolt and have it become a ballista bolt in mid air.

Personally I wouldn't have a problem with this for the reasons given in my last post.

Actually using command words is a standard action, at least from what is written in the magic items chapter.

PRD wrote:
You are able to shrink one nonmagical item (if it is within the size limit) to 1/16 of its normal size in each dimension (to about 1/4,000 the original volume and mass). This change effectively reduces the object's size by four categories.

He would need a colossal crossbow bolt to get a normal sized one. AFAIK a ballista bolts is a large item.

PRD wrote:


Objects changed by a shrink item spell can be returned to normal composition and size merely by tossing them onto any solid surface or by a word of command from the original caster./quote]

Both standard actions, I think. Maybe the crossbow bolt hitting the target can count as "striking a solid surface", but it sill would do a normal light crossbow damage. The spell deliver a standard light crossbow damage plus magical bonuses and feat bonuses, the damage isn't modified by the size of the bolt.


A ballista bolt is not a crossbow bolt, despite the similarities.


CampinCarl9127 wrote:
A ballista bolt is not a crossbow bolt, despite the similarities.

What he did was he made a Colossal or gargantuan Light crossbow bolt and used the spell shrink item. That put it to the size that would fit the spell launch bolt.

So, he's convinced that based on "a shrink item spell can be returned to normal composition and size merely by tossing them onto any solid surface". He is convinced that once the arrow hits a creature like a plate mail it will expand and entitle him to what a Colossal/gargantuan Light Crossbow bolt would do dmg wise.

We have been beating this over and over again. People here tell me you go by the weapon that fired it so even if the shrunken light crossbow bolt expands to its original size. It still is 1d6 not 4D8 according to the rules. I'm trying to figure this out because, I will just roll my 1d6 dmg behind the dm screen if this player can't understand that the BOLT is NOT the WEAPON but RATHER THE OBJECT THAT IS FIRING IT!

This is his argument.
There is NO interpretation necessary OR need to find any "common ground". You DO have all the rules that specifically govern this right in the Core Rule book and the Spell Compendium. There isnt even anything confusing here. The rules and logic follow and, according to the rules are written, are 100% correct.

1) Characters can manufacture weapons of any size and the rules for that exist in the Craft skill description. Tao (his character) has created Gargantuan x bow bolts following the rules for that. The bolts are NOT ballista bolts (though a ballista is in fact just a massive x bow itself, its likely the bolts Tao made would be usable by a ballista too). They are crafted as Gargantuan x bow bolts and that is what they are. Making a weapon bigger (or smaller) does not change what it actually is. A Large sized dagger is NOT a Medium sized short sword (no kidding its a me-lee weapon that does dmg based on its size) . Its STILL a dagger. (Also, weapons dont usually actually double in size when they change size categories. Halflings are Small sized but are still 3.5 - 4 feet tall while a Medium sized human has an average height around 5'8". The human isnt twice the Halfling's height. There is a range. For making weapons (or any gear) the rules state that weight doubles each time the size category increases. Maybe it doesnt actually do that for every single item but thats the rough rule you'd use to determine somethings new weight.
* So, in conclusion, the Gargantuan xbow bolts Tao made ARE Gargantuan x bow bolts. You could call them ballista bolts but they are what they are.

2) Shrink Item works on any item within the spell's Target parameters. The spell does not give an exhaustive, object by object list of every single thing the spell can be used on and it's not reasonable to expect one - it would be endless. Anything that fits the parameters of the spell CAN be affected. The bolts Tao created CAN be affected and are 100% legal targets for the spell since they fit the parameters of the spell being used on them.
* So, when reduced in size, the bolts become legal targets for the Launch Bolt spell (Is this true rule question?). Its worth noting that if a giant caster (like a storm giant wizard) used Launch Bolt he would be firing Huge sized light x bow bolts that would deal out 3d6/hit. The damage of the Launch Bolt spell is NOT limited to the damage that a medium sized caster does with a medium sized light x bow. A halfling's light x bow does 1d6 and so a halfling wizard's bolts would deal 1d6 with Launch Bolt.

3) When an item affected by Shrink Item is thrown against a solid surface (or struck by one) the spell ends and the item returns to its original size in an instant. That we know 100%. Which means that as a target is being hit by that shrunk bolt it will immediately return to its normal size and will be traveling (at least initially) as fast as it was when small. How much speed/inertia is looses over the second its pushing into the target's body IS up for debate. I doubt it would lose much at all over that tiny bit of time but as ive already said twice, id be fine reducing its damage by a size category to take that into account. The base damage for a Gargantuan light xbow bolt is 4d6 so it would become 3d6.

4) Most 3rd level offense spells deal 1d6/caster level to multiple creatures in a single round with no attack roll needed. Tao is using a 3rd level spell to deal 4d6 (or 3d6 if you like) to a single target with an attack roll needed AND having to use another spell to make it work.

I dont know what else to say about this. All the rules exist and are right there. The only decision that needs to be made is how much damage the bolt would do. The rules say 4d6 for a Gargantuan bolt.

Liberty's Edge

Here is something similar:

PRD wrote:

Reduce Person

....
ll equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly reduced by the spell.

Melee and projectile weapons deal less damage. Other magical properties are not affected by this spell. Any reduced item that leaves the reduced creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage (projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them).

A bolt is a projectile and the "weapon" firing it is a medium sized caster, so it do medium sized bolt damage.

I ask again, can you give us the source of the spell, as I can't find it.

His point 3) is false. He is using "Launch bolt" to deal the damage, He is using Shrink item to bring along a colossal light bolt for X days.
It is like saying "I have used Greater magic weapon to give a bonus to my weapon, it is a 3rd level spell, so my weapon should do CLxd6 damage".

To repeat it again, the spell you cited has this:
"Material Component: The crossbow bolt to be fired (1 sp)."
A gargantuan crossbow bold, even shrunk, isn't a "crossbow bolt ... (1 sp)" so the spell simply fail for lack of the material component.

Essentially, your player is trying to stretch the rules and, as presented in your post, in a disruptive way. The problem don't seem to be the spell but the player.
Stretching the rules can work if done in a way that is acceptable for the gaming group, GM included, but if you have said No and he continue to say, I will!, that is a problem.


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LucasB wrote:
Which means that as a target is being hit by that shrunk bolt it will immediately return to its normal size and will be traveling (at least initially) as fast as it was when small.

False. Completely false. That is not how momentum works.

p=mv

momentum=mass*velocity

The bolt will be traveling at the same momentum, and since it has a much larger mass that means its velocity will be significantly lower. So low it's likely to just drop to the ground without causing any damage.

LucasB wrote:
How much speed/inertia is looses over the second its pushing into the target's body IS up for debate. I doubt it would lose much at all over that tiny bit of time but as ive already said twice, id be fine reducing its damage by a size category to take that into account. The base damage for a Gargantuan light xbow bolt is 4d6 so it would become 3d6...I dont know what else to say about this. All the rules exist and are right there.

No, no they are not. Here is the forum you should direct your player to.

Edit: I agree with Diego. Your player is a bad rules lawyer and is trying to manipulate the game. Tell him no and move on.


Reduce Person shrinks the weapon and projectile and when the fired projectile leaves it returns to it's normal size, but it still deals damage as if it was smaller. The spell clearly states: projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them
On the other hand with Enlarge Person you fire a large projectile with a large weapon, but the projectile then becomes medium sized and deals damage as if fired by a medium weapon. So the projectile does not deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired it.

What is the common factor here? The projectile ends up dealing damage as the smallest size category of either itself or the weapon by which it was fired. Thus large bow + medium arrow impacting the target = medium bow damage. Small bow + medium arrow impacting the target = small bow damage.

So looking at how those spells work, ruling it as dealing 1d6 damage instead of 4d6 makes sense. On the other hand he can only do one such attack per round and it eats up a lvl 3 spell (shrink item) for every attack, does it not? All things considered if it's limited to a single attack per round then that doesn't seem that effective, so in that case I'd personally let him have his fun and rule that he can do it for 4d6 damage, as it seems to be rather harmless and ineffective compared to other things he could be doing. And I would also make it clear in that case that if it does ever become disruptive (as in, he mixes it with some other combo to make it completely overpowered) then the ruling could very well change to it dealing only 1d6 damage.

Liberty's Edge

Corodix wrote:
So looking at how those spells work, ruling it as dealing 1d6 damage instead of 4d6 makes sense. On the other hand he can only do one such attack per round and it eats up a lvl 3 spell (shrink item) for every attack, does it not?

I don't think he is using a 3rd level spell every time he fire a bolt. Shrink item last 1/day level. If I guess right this guy prepare several bolts in advance casting the spell during the downtime and then bringing with him a pile of shrunk bolts.

The GM could counter that tactic saying "you are attacked in your house/you must resolve this problem today/other similar scenarios, a pity all your 3rd level spells are Shrunk item", but, depending on the campaign, that can be a disruptive tactic, as most player feel that they should be untouchable during downtime.

With my players I have used it sparingly and always with some warning and asking the players what are their standard precautions several session in advance.

As I suspected, Launch bolt is a 3.5 cantrip (slightly different description from the one cited by LucasB:

D&Dtools wrote:

Launch Bolt

(Magic of Faerûn)

Transmutation
Level: Sorcerer 0, Wizard 0, Gnome Artificer 0,
Components: V, S,
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: One crossbow bolt in your possession
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You cast this spell on a crossbow bolt, causing it to fly at a target of your choice as if you had fired it from a light crossbow.
Any properties of the bolt (such as magical abilities, masterwork quality, and so on) or feats you possess (such as Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus [light crossbow], and so on) apply.

So our guy is using a cantrip to do a potential 4d6 of damage several times in a day.


Personally, he wants to do this. Just tell him if he want to do it and really wants it to be a crossbow bolt that he can do it at the same cost af a Boulder Bullet... or, you know, just use a Stonebow and Boulder Bullets?


I challenge anyone to find damage listed for arrows. Or bolts. Or sling stones. What is the damage of an arrow? It's listed as "-". No damage listed. What is the damage of a crossbow bolt? It's listed as "-". No damage listed. Etc.

So where do we get our damage figures?

From the weapon that fires the ammunition.

This spell says "as if you had fired it from a light crossbow." The Core
Rulebook lists the damage for "Crossbow, light" as "1d8". This assumes medium size.

Bingo!

There we finally find some damage. 1d8. That's all you need to know, but if you want physics, remind the player that this is a game and not a science lab and the physics model is extremely simple and not entirely realistic.

The simple answer is: "The book says that a projectile fired from a medium light crossbow does 1d8 damage. Period. The book doesn't say anything about how big that projectile is, just that firing it from a light crossbow means it does 1d8 damage. If the bolt enlarges in flight then the velocity decreases proportionally leaving the momentum at a constant value leaving the damage at a constant die: 1d8. That's how it works."

I agree with the others here that the guy is probably just trying to break the rules and be uber. This kind of player generally doesn't care if the game is balanced or fun for everyone at the table as long as he can show off how awesome his character is. As a GM, I try very hard to discourage this kind of play at my table.

I also agree that this is not that big a deal. If it's an effort to make his character amazingly uber he's only managing to find a way to make his character mildly interesting. That amount of damage for a 3rd level spell is really fairly low. The fact that he can cast it today and use it tomorrow makes it back into the interesting range, but not amazingly so.

Still, it's FREE damage since the spell slot is not consumed in the same day he's using the shrunken bolts to do damage. And it's a LOT of free damage, so it's a broken idea that should probably be shut down by the GM.

Or, for kicks, let him do it, then have an antimagic field (or just a dispel magic spell) near the dungeon entrance turn all his bolts back to colossal size, shredding his quiver and rendering them useless to him (and surprisingly heavy at 16 pounds for ten bolts).

Heck, I'd do that - if a player wants to break my game, and won't back down when I ask him to be reasonable, and argues with me about it, I'll give him what he wants and then I'll break his game. After that, maybe he'll be more reasonable with me.


DM_Blake wrote:
- if a player wants to break my game, and won't back down when I ask him to be reasonable, and argues with me about it, I'll give him what he wants and then I'll break his game. After that, maybe he'll be more reasonable with me.

Rather than waste everyone's time and cause even more bad feelings, if a player and I can't agree on how a game should be run, we simply don't play together.

I'm too old for passive aggressive crap.

To the original OP: As clearly demonstrated by enlarge and reduce person, as others have said the damage is based on the lesser of the projectile after returning to normal size and the weapon that fired the bolt. So a large crossbow that fires bolts that turn medium does 1d8. A medium crossbow that fires bolts that turn large also does 1d8. In this case, sense the crossbow is 'virtual' it would be based on the characters size.

How realistic this is from a physics perspective is immaterial. A medium caster using the 3.5 cantrip launch bolt will do 1d8 damage whether the projectile gets bigger in flight/on contact or not.


Dave Justus wrote:
DM_Blake wrote:
- if a player wants to break my game, and won't back down when I ask him to be reasonable, and argues with me about it, I'll give him what he wants and then I'll break his game. After that, maybe he'll be more reasonable with me.

Rather than waste everyone's time and cause even more bad feelings, if a player and I can't agree on how a game should be run, we simply don't play together.

I'm too old for passive aggressive crap.

Yeah, but sometimes I like the guy, and sometimes an object lesson puts things in better perspective and then we have great games together. I don't burn that bridge as a first step, I prefer it as a last resort.


DM_Blake wrote:
I challenge anyone to find damage listed for arrows. Or bolts. Or sling stones. What is the damage of an arrow? It's listed as "-". No damage listed. What is the damage of a crossbow bolt? It's listed as "-". No damage listed. Etc.

Okay

A crossbow bolt used as a melee weapon is treated as a light improvised weapon (–4 penalty on attack rolls) and deals damage as a dagger of its size (crit ×2)


IF we were to use real physics, AND somehow managed to transfer the entire amount of kinetic energy from the small bolt to the enlarged bolt striking the target, it wouldn't even do the same damage as the bolt.

Bolts/arrows/bullets rely on a small contact surface to cause penetration. The same force used in a punch wouldn't cause the same wound, not even bludgeoning, as it wouldn't penetrate the skin. If it was "boulder size", at most, it would shove the target slightly back.

Even a ballista-bolt-sized projectile hitting with the force of a normal-sized crosbow bolt would probably have problems penetrating leather armor.

Just my two cents, as I'm aware we're not arguing real world physics here.


From my perspective, the shrunken bolt has already hit the target for the clause to activate it's return to normal size. So the damage is already done pre-growth.

Now nothing stops him from carrying Colossal/gargantuan Light Crossbow bolt in a quiver like javelins and I don't see why they wouldn't do damage as a light crossbow of their size. Saying it deal medium size damage means he can craft diminutive arrows and carry a few thousand in his pocket and the microscopic arrows still deal 1d8 damage...


What Graystone said.
Why does he even want to dismiss the shrink item AFTER firing the Bolt?
It doesn't say anywhere that he has to use a bolt that is properly sized for him.
Either he is allowed to carry gigantic bolts and do the appropriate damage with them, or he can craft hundreds of toothpick-sized arrows and still do 1d8 with them. And a rune giant casting it on the toothpics would do 4d6...

If he is willing to invest the magic ressources to shrink the bolts for transport and the standard actions to unshrink them before casting the spell, OR invest in a means of transport to carry them around, I would be totally fine.

As far as the whole unshrink-on-impact-thing goes, I'm in the camp that says the unshrinking happens AFTER impact, therefore having no effect on the damage, regardless whether it is calculated via the weapon or the ammunition.


Quote:
Shrink item can be cancelled with a command word. Speaking a word is a free action. I assumed the guy wanted to launch the bolt and have it become a ballista bolt in mid air.

Command words are a standard action, and attacks are for rules purposes instantaneous. There's no time/room for giving a command word in mid flight. Not even with a readied action, since those say that you act before the action triggering (which would be the entire attack), so it would get big again before actually being fired. Or be too late.

(In addition to all the other discusssion above about whether it would even do more damage anyway, this is a redundant problem with the plan)

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