Berselius |
Berselius wrote:I wonder why the psychic class got so many of the psychic magic spells and none of the other classes did. Strange. :(They are the wizards of psychic magic.
True. True. I just wish some of the other psychic magic using classes were able to cast some of the spells the Psychic class is only able to cast.
Drahliana Moonrunner |
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:True. True. I just wish some of the other psychic magic using classes were able to cast some of the spells the Psychic class is only able to cast.Berselius wrote:I wonder why the psychic class got so many of the psychic magic spells and none of the other classes did. Strange. :(They are the wizards of psychic magic.
I don't quite see the psionic attack spells as thematic for a class that's essentially a hypnotist.
Berselius |
Berselius wrote:I don't quite see the psionic attack spells as thematic for a class that's essentially a hypnotist.Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:True. True. I just wish some of the other psychic magic using classes were able to cast some of the spells the Psychic class is only able to cast.Berselius wrote:I wonder why the psychic class got so many of the psychic magic spells and none of the other classes did. Strange. :(They are the wizards of psychic magic.
True. I guess I'd just like some offensive spell power in the Mesmerist class ya knows? I'm a huge fan of Emma Frost and how she'd not only alter people's minds but psi-blast them into comatose states when she'd get angry. ;) :D
Set |
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Eh, I feel Emma Frost would fit better as a Mesmerist to be honest. I'm just trying to see if the Mesmerist can be given some offensive firepower is all.
Any time I see a bunch of spells (or any class feature, really) gated off to only be available to a single specific class out of a couple dozen, it feels like a lost opportunity to me, and the psychic attack spells feel exactly on-theme for a Mesmerist (more so than Touch Treatment, or even Trick, IMO).
An Archetype that swapped out one of those for the psychic attack/defense mode spells and the ability to undercast them could be a way to go. Spell levels might have to be tinkered with in some cases, the Mesmerist being a six-level caster, but there's plenty of those (Bard, Summoner, etc.) already in the game to use as examples.
And yeah, comic books tend to have some range with their telepaths, with some being more offensive (like Emma Frost or Saturn Queen) and good at the mind-blasting and specialized in mind control, and others being more utility telepaths or generally good at everything, but specifically *not* mind-control/brainwashing experts (like Jean Grey and Saturn Girl). It sort of ranges all over, from Martian Manhunter, who *usually* sticks to utility stunts (since he's got a zillion other powers and doesn't really *need* to use mind control/psi-blasts) to Psylocke (for whom 'I stab you with my brain' is pretty much her signature move).
Set |
Set wrote:I thought Psylocke's signature move was the telekinetic ability to stay in her costume.to Psylocke (for whom 'I stab you with my brain' is pretty much her signature move).
Well, yes, that's a comic book staple, but she doesn't have as many ranks in that power as Phantom Lady or Vampirella. :)
Hayato Ken |
Without compating this to comic books, i agree that the mesmerist should have gotten some more psychic spells like mind thrust etc.
As is, it´s the greatest temptation to just dip oracle of heavens with awesome display...what´s actually ok if the saves are kept in a sane range.
Dragonchess Player |
The Psychic Disciple feat will allow a character to gain mind thrust I (or another 1st-level spell on the psychic spell list) as a 2/day spell-like ability.
Dragonchess Player |
It has a different focus, but the psychic detective archetype for the investigator can be used (replaces extracts with spells from the psychic spell list); as a psychic caster, the character can use the psychic skill unlocks (such as Hypnotism with Diplomacy). Investigator talents like Confusing Strike, Empathy, Expanded Inspiration, Inspired Intimidator, Sickening Offensive, and/or Underworld Inspiration can be used to make a psychic detective similar in feel to a mesmerist; some of the phrenic amplifications (gained through Phrenic Dabbler) can also help.
Berselius |
Berselius wrote:Eh, I feel Emma Frost would fit better as a Mesmerist to be honest. I'm just trying to see if the Mesmerist can be given some offensive firepower is all.Any time I see a bunch of spells (or any class feature, really) gated off to only be available to a single specific class out of a couple dozen, it feels like a lost opportunity to me, and the psychic attack spells feel exactly on-theme for a Mesmerist (more so than Touch Treatment, or even Trick, IMO).
An Archetype that swapped out one of those for the psychic attack/defense mode spells and the ability to undercast them could be a way to go. Spell levels might have to be tinkered with in some cases, the Mesmerist being a six-level caster, but there's plenty of those (Bard, Summoner, etc.) already in the game to use as examples.
And yeah, comic books tend to have some range with their telepaths, with some being more offensive (like Emma Frost or Saturn Queen) and good at the mind-blasting and specialized in mind control, and others being more utility telepaths or generally good at everything, but specifically *not* mind-control/brainwashing experts (like Jean Grey and Saturn Girl). It sort of ranges all over, from Martian Manhunter, who *usually* sticks to utility stunts (since he's got a zillion other powers and doesn't really *need* to use mind control/psi-blasts) to Psylocke (for whom 'I stab you with my brain' is pretty much her signature move).
Thanks dude. I just feel that the Mesmerist is too much of a support-type character ya knows? It has way to few offensive capabilities. Even the Cleric has an ability to cast some offensive divine spells (aka spear of purity, holy smite, blade barrier, etc etc). Plus I totally feel some spells that, right now, are unique solely to the Psychic class would fit very well for the Mesmerist (as well as a few other occult classes). Maybe Paizo will change their minds and give the Mesmerist access to the Mind Thrust, Ego Whip (etc etc), spells in the second printing?
Doomed Hero wrote:Well, yes, that's a comic book staple, but she doesn't have as many ranks in that power as Phantom Lady or Vampirella. :)Set wrote:to Psylocke (for whom 'I stab you with my brain' is pretty much her signature move).I thought Psylocke's signature move was the telekinetic ability to stay in her costume.
Heh, I've always been a fan of Vampirella and Blue Bulleteer myself and their super natural ability to keep their costumes on. One day however, I WILL SEE VAMPIRELLA STRAPPED TO A TICKLE TORTURE MACHINE! :D
The Psychic Disciple feat will allow a character to gain mind thrust I (or another 1st-level spell on the psychic spell list) as a 2/day spell-like ability.
Unfortunately you have to waste two precious feat slots to even qualify for that Feat and by then you'll probably have better attack options than 1st level occult spells.
Dragonchess Player |
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Thanks dude. I just feel that the Mesmerist is too much of a support-type character ya knows? It has way to few offensive capabilities.
The mesmerist is primarily a debuffer. Think bard, except making the character's enemies perform worse instead of making the party perform better (although the mesmerist tricks can be quite powerful). A bard has relatively few offensive capabilities (outside of normal attacks), as well; a "combat bard" doesn't blast (other than sound striker, sort of) or gain much in the way of offensive spells, either.
If you want a "combat mesmerist," the vexing daredevil archetype does pretty well.
Weirdo |
Agreed with Dragonchess, the mesmerist is more specialized than the psychic, and that's the point. It's not supposed to knock people out, it's supposed to undermine their will and capacity to fight. And it's supposed to have some form of entourage to take care of more direct attack. (For a PC, that's their party members. For an NPC, probably minions.)
I could see Ego Whip being a Mesmerist spell, but Mind Thrust doesn't fit.
A more aggressive archetype would be interesting, but for now the psychic is the best class for a character with broader focus. You can still specialize in mind-affecting effects as a psychic, just without the particular specialist perks of the mesmerist.
Berselius |
The mesmerist is primarily a debuffer. Think bard, except making the character's enemies perform worse instead of making the party perform better (although the mesmerist tricks can be quite powerful). A bard has relatively few offensive capabilities (outside of normal attacks), as well; a "combat bard" doesn't blast (other than sound striker, sort of) or gain much in the way of offensive spells, either.
Unfortunately their debuffing power is limited to foes that are affected by mind-affecting effects. Yes the class gets a stare power that allows it to bypass that immunity but the restrictions are pretty damn harsh. I just feel like the class needs some Omph to be able to defend itself ya knows? When the party is up against undead, plants, or such the Mesmerist become downright pathetic (at least from my experience).
If you want a "combat mesmerist," the vexing daredevil archetype does pretty well.
If by"combat mesmerist" you mean "competent weapon user" then I'm not really looking for that. I'm looking for some offensive psychic spells that the Mesmerist can fall back on in case his DEBUFFING POWERS aren't proving to be effective (or aren't effective at all).
Agreed with Dragonchess, the mesmerist is more specialized than the psychic, and that's the point. It's not supposed to knock people out, it's supposed to undermine their will and capacity to fight.
And yet they can't take out an enemy somehow?
And it's supposed to have some form of entourage to take care of more direct attack. (For a PC, that's their party members. For an NPC, probably minions.)
No offense but a party member limited only one role without any sort of versatility can be pretty vexing to play (especially one that relies solely on the "other players" to keep him or her safe) from harm. Suppose the Mesmerist is the only party member left standing (or conscious)? Do you think he could defend his unconscious friends against the few remaining skeletons, zombies, oozes, plants, etc etc?
Weirdo |
There is stuff a mesmerist can do against a foe immune to their debuffs. Their spell list includes grease, obscuring mist, false life, invisibility, mirror image, bestow curse, dispel magic, dimension door, etc. They have light armour and medium BAB, so they can use weapons. Since they're worried about specific creature types, they can buy things like holy water, defoliant, alkali, or bane weapons or ammo. Their tricks are also very handy extra contingencies that can get themselves or allies out of danger, greatly decrease the chances that they'll be making a solo last stand.
And I don't think a mesmerist is in a particularly bad shape in a solo last stand, because that's panic time for most PCs. I was recently GMing a game in which the fighter was about one attack away from dropping and leaving the summoner as the sole defender, and if that had happened the summoner was hosed.