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Fresh off another thread that dipped into this topic I thought it was worth discussing. Aid Another is, at it's heart, a mechanic that encourages all the players to work together at a common goal. In my own home games I've houseruled that in some situations players don't even need to use the same skills.
I had a scenario once where the PCs came to a magical trap. There was a rogue in the party but I didn't want it to be just him making dice rolls so I asked the other players their skills.
One was a wizard and he'd noticed the magic of the trap with Detect Magic so I asked him to use Spellcraft to try and figure a way around it. Part of mechanism involved a relief of a face on a door; the mouth would open to unleash the effect so the fighter got to make a Strength check and finally the trap had been created by an adept so the cleric made a Knowledge: Religion check to analyze the faith that contributed to the device and any details that would yield.
In all every player at the table helped disable the trap. Yeah, that's not RAW and may have detracted from the rogue's unique ability to break magic traps but in the end everyone participated and had fun. Mechanically all that happened was the rogue got +6 on his own roll and since the DC was a 21 on the trap it ended up helping him.
Anyway, since then I've strongly encouraged my players to use Aid Another. Not just with different skills. Any untrained skill can be used. We've had a party face talk to an NPC and had a second player chime in; no skill in Diplomacy but a natural +2 from Cha so on an 8 or higher they're helping. I've also reminded players that Craft is an untrained skill. So one guy wants to make a bow? The other 3 PCs can help somehow and tack on +2s so long as they roll a total check of 10 or better.
In combat no one ever uses Aid Another and I get it; the action economy is bad and there's better things to do with your actions. Still against single opponents it might be handy or, say, if you've got an animal companion, familiar or other helper with no chance of hitting this might be a worthwhile standard action.
I had a level 2 wizard use her Enlarge Person on her owl familiar in one fight. Next fight was only a minute later so the familiar was still enlarged. It flew in and granted the oracle a +5 (had a trait from a feat that allowed it to give +2 on Aid Another) to attack from Aid Another and Flanking. That's no small bonus at level 2.
What have your experiences been with Aid Another in your games?
In my games, it's something that almost always gets broken out when characters make skill checks. It very rarely gets used in combat, I think because players would rather use their characters' cool abilities than spend an action giving somebody a +2 at something.
Aid another requires the user to be capable of passing the check on their own - if they cannot, then they can't aid. This prevents players from abusing the system to beat skill checks they otherwise couldn't, such as high Disable Device DCs (which happened in my Kingmaker campaign before I knew this). As a result Aid Another isn't as useful unless multiple people have ranks in the same skill. I do like your take on it though, seems like an interesting way to get people involved.
Yeah, I am aware that there are several Aid Another builds out there, but I've only scarcely seen Aid Another used in combat (by PCs, that is).
I often use a "too many cooks" rule of thumb when allowing multiple Aid Another actions for skill checks, to limit the bonus. And in some cases, a failed Aid Another (especially in social situations) can lead to the opposite of helping.
I like the way you handled the magical trap, involving the whole group. I feel that's how Aid Another should be used; not just for the bonus.
Doesn't get used to much in the table I play at, except for on skill checks that we suspect are difficult (and outside of combat times).
I'm currently playing an Inquisitor with the Chivalry domain which grants an animal companion and I'm setting it up with Bodyguard and In Harms Way, so it will be using Aid Another frequently but I think this is pretty atypical for a PC character to do.
Overall as players we'd like to do something proactive and interesting rather than spend our turn add a small bonus to someone else for one or against one attack a round (in combat).
Edit: I think the thing I've had it come up most is strength checks to force open doors and such.
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My current group still hasn't learned to use it, and honestly I'm amazed at how people (in many other groups too), despite all my suggestions to use it, never think about it or always prefer to waste their turns.
Apparently, it's better to make useless attacks that miss or don't overcome DR, rather than help someone else who could use a little bonus to save the day.
And I also had people who complained "that monster was too hard", after ten rounds of useless attacks from every character, when it could have ended in two or three rounds.
I guess it's a reflection of how people are in real life: selfish to the marrow.
My group tends to use it more often for skill checks than anything else. It normally only gets used in combat from about levels 1-3, after that, not so much.
Most often Aid Another is a desperation technique.
For example, we faced a boss-level foe that had AC 33, DR 10, Spell Resistance too high to get around, Invisibility at will, and Spider Climb preventing a flank for our rogue cohort. The only reason we survived was that it was terrible at dealing damage itself; nonetheless, it killed another leadership cohort. Only my barbarian and the slayer could hit it with enough damage to get past its DR and it was damaging us faster. So the other party members aided my barbarian whenever they could reach the foe. What finally took it down was luring it to where we could flank it, aiding the rogue so that he could hit, and inflicting enough sneak attack damage to bypass the DR to put 6 bleed damge on it. It bled to death over ten rounds, seeking the healing potions which we had already looted.
Another time, a character was poisoned and the only cure we had was a healer's kit. The GM let us use that kit beyond its normal abilities, and the ranger could use her survival skill to restock it in the jungle. The ranger had the best heal skill, but everyone else with ranks in heal did Aid Another. I recall roleplaying my barbarian's aid as trying to suck the poison out of the wound before the ranger applied the poultice.
Aid another requires the user to be capable of passing the check on their own - if they cannot, then they can't aid. This prevents players from abusing the system to beat skill checks they otherwise couldn't, such as high Disable Device DCs (which happened in my Kingmaker campaign before I knew this). As a result Aid Another isn't as useful unless multiple people have ranks in the same skill. I do like your take on it though, seems like an interesting way to get people involved.
Ordinarily, Aid Another is only against AC 10 for combat aid and DC 10 for skill aid. However, the skill aid rules are no take 10, the GM can put an upper limit on the total aid bonus, including no aid allowed, and sometimes the aiding characters would have to be able to succeed on their own. That last restriction is hard to apply since it requires the GM reveal the DC of the task and renders Aid Another useless if we are allowed to take 20. So we often houserule that one to a character must have at least one rank in the skill to aid.
We occasionally use it for skill checks. Never use it in combat because it's a waste of an action.
OP - I like your creativity. I would appreciate it as a player.
For combat, a halfling with the Helpful trait (+4 for Aid Another) might find it useful.
It is useful in combat when a character can only hit on a natural 20 roll and helping someone else either get an AC bump or attack bonus bump is preferable than a 1 in 20 chance to hit. Mostly, this would apply at lower levels because once you have 3+ attacks you probably would rather take your chances at 3 tries to get a 20. The aid attack roll is only against an AC 10, so it is a near automatic way to provide a bonus to a friend.
In our Star Wars d20 campaign I played a Cerrean noble that seriously beefed up his ability to aid his Jedi friends. He often had little hope of hitting anything, but was providing something like +6 to attack and +4d6 damage bonuses (IIRC). My table friends harrassed me, but every time they missed by 4 and my aid gave them a hit, I let them know that was my damage they dealt. :)
I don't know if a damage bonus for aiding exists in PF like Star Wars had, but it would be a tastier option if there were feats that added extra d6 damage to someone whom you aided.
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I have a lvl 9 cavalier that grants his allies this teamwork feat:
Your movements perfectly synchronize with your ally’s to greater effect.
Prerequisites: Any teamwork feat, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When you successfully use the aid another action to improve the Armor Class or attack roll of an ally who also has this feat, the benefit from aid another lasts until the beginning of your next turn.
Normal: The bonus granted by aid another either grants your ally a +2 bonus on her next attack roll against an opponent or grants your ally a +2 bonus to AC against that opponent’s next attack made before the beginning of your next turn.
as a swift action using greater tactician. Then, using the Helpful halfling trait combined with a +2 benevolent armor and the bodguard feat, he grants his allies a +6 dodge bonus to armor class for 1 whole turn if an enemy attacks it.
I guess it's a reflection of how people are in real life: selfish to the marrow.
It's not selfishness as much as it's awareness of the fact that sacrificing a Standard action (possibly a full attack) to grant a +2 to a single roll is a terrible idea.
Without major investment, Aid Another is an awful option in combat.
I guess it's a reflection of how people are in real life: selfish to the marrow.It's not selfishness as much as it's awareness of the fact that sacrificing a Standard action (possibly a full attack) to grant a +2 to a single roll is a terrible idea.
Without major investment, Aid Another is an awful option in combat.
Nonsense. It may be situational, but hardly awful.
A couple common scenarios:
* DR (or other special defenses) that only one PC can bypass. I don't have to be able to damage an opponent to Aid Another on your attacks.
* Support PCs. Rogues, bards, healers,... can often do more after they've done their thing via Aid Another than any other action.
It's an awful option for well-built characters that have useful direct actions available to them in the vast majority of combat situations. It's a useful option for badly-built characters.
It's worth your time in the Unchained Action Economy. Everyone gets 3 acts per tirn, and Aid Another is only 1 act to perform.
Nonsense. It may be situational, but hardly awful.
Part of what makes it awful is the fact that it's too situational. It also kills action economy and gives a minuscule bonus.
A couple common scenarios:
* DR (or other special defenses) that only one PC can bypass. I don't have to be able to damage an opponent to Aid Another on your attacks.
I've literally never seen this happen. Never seen DR that only one party member can overcome.
* Support PCs. Rogues, bards, healers,... can often do more after they've done their thing via Aid Another than any other action.
Doubtful. They can attack, feint, intimidate, use items, cast spells, use their class features, etc.
I've never seen a support character so incredibly weak that they had no chance to hit the opponent and couldn't do anything better than spending their standard action to grant a +2 to/against a single attack roll.
I've never seen a support character so incredibly weak that they had no chance to hit the opponent and couldn't do anything better than spending their standard action to grant a +2 to/against a single attack roll.
I've seen them - like the Bard who's spread his stats around evenly and can only plink away with a shortbow, or cast spells with very low DCs against a limited selection of opponents.
It happens more in games where there are around 7 PCs and the GM tries to make up for it with high CR opponents and only specialists can hurt them directly.
After fact-checking myself, I found the following:
Aid another requires the user to be capable of passing the check on their own - if they cannot, then they can't aid. This prevents players from abusing the system to beat skill checks they otherwise couldn't, such as high Disable Device DCs (which happened in my Kingmaker campaign before I knew this). As a result Aid Another isn't as useful unless multiple people have ranks in the same skill. I do like your take on it though, seems like an interesting way to get people involved.Ordinarily, Aid Another is only against AC 10 for combat aid and DC 10 for skill aid. However, the skill aid rules are no take 10, the GM can put an upper limit...
In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results, such as trying to open a lock using Disable Device, you can't aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn't achieve alone.
Certain skill checks require that everyone aiding is able to pass the check alone. This doesn't apply to combat where DC 10 is the standard or to skill checks where more than one person can participate (such as, say, three people trying to hold a door shut). It is easy enough to ask the players "What are your bonuses" and add 20 to determine if they can aid without giving anything away.
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A well-built character will almost never be in a situation in combat where that aid another +2 is their best choice. A well-played character will always keep an option in their toolbox for that oddball situation where it is the best choice.
There are times where giving a friend +2 to hit or AC is your best action, just not very often.
I don't recall, but is Aid Another still an untyped bonus that stacks? I recall pulling some shenanigans in 3.0 involving summoning a lot of low level creatures that can't hit foes but can hit AC 10 to give +2 AC each.
I've occasionally done that as GM - thrown in a bunch of low-level minions to help the boss hit the PC with the high AC.
The only time it ever gets used around my table is on knowledge checks. The characters share lore and discuss what they know. I very very rarely see it used for anything else.
We generally only see it outside of combat, although in order to avoid the GM's ire for perceived cheese we don't use it when the main PC has a high modifier. If it's a difficult DC or the skill user has negative levels or whatnot, then we'll go ahead and use Aid Another. In combat I have only ever seen it a handful of times. The only character of mine who ever used it was a cleric with a pitiful attack bonus who was trying to conserve spells.
I'm glad it is available for use, but while it appreciate its simplicity I think allowing for situations where the bonus is higher might make it more appealing.
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I'd have assumed Aid Another on Knowledge checks for knowing something wasn't normally allowed, outside of things like library research.
"I don't know what monster this is that's attacking us."
"It looks red - that might be a clue."
"I've noticed that it's breathing fire at us."
"Are those big wings growing out of it's back?"
"Thanks for the assist, guys! It must be a red dragon!"
I'd have assumed Aid Another on Knowledge checks for knowing something wasn't normally allowed, outside of things like library research.
"I don't know what monster this is that's attacking us."
"It looks red - that might be a clue."
"I've noticed that it's breathing fire at us."
"Are those big wings growing out of it's back?"
"Thanks for the assist, guys! It must be a red dragon!"
I can't say I've read anything to say they can't use it but I may be wrong. It makes sense to me that characters can combine knowledge to put clues together outside of combat.
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Very good for ambushes, and used often outside of combat(like ALL the time). I enjoy the aid another builds... especially when given to a mascot familiar, as they aren't too feat intensive(two traits, two feats and a teamwork feat that can be granted will allow it to spend a standard, move, and swift all to aid another as it rides on your shoulder)
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I really don't see it in combat. At least with characters capable of doing damage if they hit. If you're in a situation with an enemy with really high DR that only one PC can bypass, I suppose that makes sense.
Otherwise, even if you only hit on a 20, is just adding +2 to someone else's attack really better than rolling for the 20 on yours? Even worse with multiple attacks, since you still only get to add one +2.And sending the squishies to the front line to (maybe) add the +2 puts them at risk for very little reward. That applies to things like familiars as well.
When you're at an APL where characters get iterative attacks, there are probably many better options than both aiding another or hoping to roll a 20 by yourself.
But if there aren't, I have no idea how it could ever be better to try to hit with a 5% chance than raising by a virtual 10% the chance of a better damage-dealer. Or the AC of anyone who may be at risk. And it's obvious you're not sending the naked Wizard in melee to aid another. Though you might want to send him too, if he has good protective magic on.It's not selfishness as much as it's awareness of the fact that sacrificing a Standard action (possibly a full attack) to grant a +2 to a single roll is a terrible idea.
Again, that is if you do have better options. You know, even a full attack that hits with 2+ is a terrible idea, if you have better options.
But in the case of aid another, if you have to hope on 20s to make puny damage when someone else can do major damage with a bit of help, it's just stupid to insist on repeating missed attacks. This, still not considering AC bonuses.Part of what makes it awful is the fact that it's too situational. It also kills action economy and gives a minuscule bonus.
It's something you can do without wasting feats and such, cumulative, and it allows you to overcome problems that would otherwise require either expendable resources or retreat. Awful is really not a word I'd use.
Doubtful. They can attack, feint, intimidate, use items, cast spells, use their class features, etc.
I've never seen a support character so incredibly weak that they had no chance to hit the opponent and couldn't do anything better than spending their standard action to grant a +2 to/against a single attack roll.
As said, if you're at a level where you have more options in your character sheet than you can keep track of, it's obvious that aid another is probably the last thing you'll do. But that doesn't mean it's your worst option.
No one said that aid another is unconditionally better than, say, Meteor Swarm.I've literally never seen this happen. Never seen DR that only one party member can overcome.
That's nice. I've literally seen that happen dozens of times (only one character having a weapon of the proper material/enhancement bonus, only one dealing relatively high damage, etc.), so...
Hum handy at low levels , honestly i think it isnt even worth the time it took to roll it at higher ones.
Ofc , unless someone focus on it , even then it is still a bad option in combat you will almost never see if the person didnt change the action cost.
Again, that is if you do have better options. You know, even a full attack that hits with 2+ is a terrible idea, if you have better options.
But in the case of aid another, if you have to hope on 20s to make puny damage when someone else can do major damage with a bit of help, it's just stupid to insist on repeating missed attacks. This, still not considering AC bonuses.
Again, that is if you do have better options. You know, even a full attack that hits with 2+ is a terrible idea, if you have better options.
"This horrible option is not so horrible if all your other options are horrible as well" doesn't make a compelling argument...
Yes, if your character is awful enough, even Aid Another starts looking good. Assuming your character is halfway competent... Not even optimized, just, you know... mediocre... Aid Another will be a terrible combat option most of the time, unless you invest a lot of resources into it.
But in the case of aid another, if you have to hope on 20s to make puny damage when someone else can do major damage with a bit of help, it's just stupid to insist on repeating missed attacks. This, still not considering AC bonuses.
I've never ever seen any situation where a PC was completely unable to hit an opponent but at the same time a +2 to a single attack of another PC would make any difference... But who knows... Maybe there is a Ranger who travels along a Commoner and a Wizard with Int 9.
That's nice. I've literally seen that happen dozens of times (only one character having a weapon of the proper material/enhancement bonus, only one dealing relatively high damage, etc.), so...
You don't need feats to feint, intimidate, use items, use your own class features or cast spells. Unless your character is a Rogue who put all his attribute points in Cha but somehow failed to add a single rank to Bluff and Intimidate, they will have something better to 99.99% of the time.
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A party I was a part of was saved from a total party kill as my familiar used aid another to help the Psychic Warrior hit that stupid basilisk.
Then it made the knowledge check to remember basilisk blood turns people back from stone.
MVF: Most Valuable Familiar.
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I have a buff/heal focused halfling cleric in PFS with the Helpful trait, so I can give +4 on an aid another action. At low levels, this gives me something to do in combat when I want to preserve spells and domain abilities.
In PFS, I see aid another used constantly on skills, but not very often in combat.
The best use I saw in combat was against an enemy magus that could hit REALLY hard, so one grappling specialist grabbed him to stop him from using his nova attacks, and everyone else piled on with a flank and aid another actions to help get him pinned quickly. One of the most notoriously dangerous foes in a Pathfinder Society scenario was pinned quickly and didn't get a chance to kill anyone.
After fact-checking myself, I found the following:
Aid another requires the user to be capable of passing the check on their own - if they cannot, then they can't aid. This prevents players from abusing the system to beat skill checks they otherwise couldn't, such as high Disable Device DCs (which happened in my Kingmaker campaign before I knew this). As a result Aid Another isn't as useful unless multiple people have ranks in the same skill. I do like your take on it though, seems like an interesting way to get people involved.Ordinarily, Aid Another is only against AC 10 for combat aid and DC 10 for skill aid. However, the skill aid rules are no take 10, the GM can put an upper limit...In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results, such as trying to open a lock using Disable Device, you can't aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn't achieve alone.Certain skill checks require that everyone aiding is able to pass the check alone. This doesn't apply to combat where DC 10 is the standard or to skill checks where more than one person can participate (such as, say, three people trying to hold a door shut). It is easy enough to ask the players "What are your bonuses" and add 20 to determine if they can aid without giving anything away.
The skills that restrict who can achieve certain results are the ones that cannot be used for DC 11 or higher while untrained. Those are Disable Device, Handle Animal, Knowledge, Profession, Sleight of Hand, Spellcraft, and Use Magic Device. Use Magic Device specifically forbids Aid Another.
Their open-a-lock example is a sad one, because the Disable Device rules say,
Try Again: Varies. You can retry checks made to disable traps if you miss the check by 4 or less. You can retry checks made to open locks.
Thus, unless the party is in a hurry, anyone who could aid opening a lock could instead Take 20 and open the lock him- or herself.
A Spellcraft check to identify a magic item does not allow second tries, so let us use that as a better example. As a GM I would give each character one roll to either aid another character or try to identify, but not both. Say that three people in the party have ranks in Spellcraft: a wizard at +7, a cleric at +6, and a ranger at +3. If the DC is 21, then a +2 from the ranger aiding is less than his 3 chances out of 20 from trying to identify. If the DC is 22, the odds match. If the DC is 23, then the ranger has only 1 chance out of 20 to identify, so he would do better aiding the wizard, but the ranger doesn't know the DC is 23. If the DC is 24, the GM won't let the ranger aid, and identifying won't work either.
In other words, if the GM says the character can aid, then the character is almost always better off acting rather than aiding. The rule is annoying.
If there is a cohort running around with the party during combat, they will often be relegated to helping others by aiding with their AC.
After fact-checking myself, I found the following:
Aid another requires the user to be capable of passing the check on their own - if they cannot, then they can't aid. This prevents players from abusing the system to beat skill checks they otherwise couldn't, such as high Disable Device DCs (which happened in my Kingmaker campaign before I knew this). As a result Aid Another isn't as useful unless multiple people have ranks in the same skill. I do like your take on it though, seems like an interesting way to get people involved.Ordinarily, Aid Another is only against AC 10 for combat aid and DC 10 for skill aid. However, the skill aid rules are no take 10, the GM can put an upper limit...In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results, such as trying to open a lock using Disable Device, you can't aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn't achieve alone.Certain skill checks require that everyone aiding is able to pass the check alone. This doesn't apply to combat where DC 10 is the standard or to skill checks where more than one person can participate (such as, say, three people trying to hold a door shut). It is easy enough to ask the players "What are your bonuses" and add 20 to determine if they can aid without giving anything away.The skills that restrict who can achieve certain results are the ones that cannot be used for DC 11 or higher while untrained. Those are Disable Device, Handle Animal, Knowledge, Profession, Sleight of Hand, Spellcraft, and Use Magic Device. Use Magic Device specifically forbids Aid Another.
Their open-a-lock example is a sad one, because the Disable Device rules say,
Try Again:...
Ah, that makes some sense on which skills can have Aid Another and which can't. The page I quoted wasn't too clear about what it meant. As for Taking 20 on Disable Device, that is clearly not allowed:
When a character or creature has plenty of time, and is not faced with threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, he/it can take 20.
If you fail a Disable Device check by 4 or more, you cannot retry it. Therefore, unless you fail by less than 4 when rolling a 1, you cannot Take 20.
I have a lvl 9 cavalier that grants his allies this teamwork feat:
Your movements perfectly synchronize with your ally’s to greater effect.
Prerequisites: Any teamwork feat, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When you successfully use the aid another action to improve the Armor Class or attack roll of an ally who also has this feat, the benefit from aid another lasts until the beginning of your next turn.
Normal: The bonus granted by aid another either grants your ally a +2 bonus on her next attack roll against an opponent or grants your ally a +2 bonus to AC against that opponent’s next attack made before the beginning of your next turn.
as a swift action using greater tactician. Then, using the Helpful halfling trait combined with a +2 benevolent armor and the bodguard feat, he grants his allies a +6 dodge bonus to armor class for 1 whole turn if an enemy attacks it.
If he's a Halfling polygamist with the Kin Guardian trait and is married to the party member in question (and every member of the party for efficiency), this bonus would increase to +8 (+4 Unnamed, +2 Trait, and +2 Enhancement).
I have a lvl 9 cavalier that grants his allies this teamwork feat:
Your movements perfectly synchronize with your ally’s to greater effect.
Prerequisites: Any teamwork feat, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When you successfully use the aid another action to improve the Armor Class or attack roll of an ally who also has this feat, the benefit from aid another lasts until the beginning of your next turn.
Normal: The bonus granted by aid another either grants your ally a +2 bonus on her next attack roll against an opponent or grants your ally a +2 bonus to AC against that opponent’s next attack made before the beginning of your next turn.
as a swift action using greater tactician. Then, using the Helpful halfling trait combined with a +2 benevolent armor and the bodguard feat, he grants his allies a +6 dodge bonus to armor class for 1 whole turn if an enemy attacks it.
Be still my heart! Thank you for showing me this brilliant teamwork feat. My Cavalier thanks you in advance!
Been looking into an Eldritch Guardian(fighter archetype) and the Teamwork feats that are also Combat feats. Getting your familiar to aid other for those feats is nice.
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Their open-a-lock example is a sad one, because the Disable Device rules say,
Try Again: Varies. You can retry checks made to disable traps if you miss the check by 4 or less. You can retry checks made to open locks.Thus, unless the party is in a hurry, anyone who could aid opening a lock could instead Take 20 and open the lock him- or herself.As for Taking 20 on Disable Device, that is clearly not allowed:
When a character or creature has plenty of time, and is not faced with threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, he/it can take 20.If you fail a Disable Device check by 4 or more, you cannot retry it. Therefore, unless you fail by less than 4 when rolling a 1, you cannot Take 20.
Re-read the quoted section. It is only disabling traps that is restricted to retry only if you fail by 4 or less, and Mathmuse is talking about locks.
I have my Valet familiar aid me in everything. We're still only 3rd level so no speech yet but my GM has handwaved this so the owl nods, shakes it's head, points its talons or taps for numbers, etc. to give me clues as to what it thinks of my conclusions and such.
So far it's helped with Knowledge, crafting items, one time with Intimidation and another time while enlarged it provided me with an AC bonus when a kobold got too close.
The one thing I really like is that it has Prestidigitation. Remember it can move 1 lb of material that way, albeit slowly. It's a pretty handy scroll holder when I'm going to be casting from multiple scrolls.
Familiars and animal companions are the most consistent use of Aid Another in my games.
Re-read the quoted section. It is only disabling traps that is restricted to retry only if you fail by 4 or less, and Mathmuse is talking about locks.Their open-a-lock example is a sad one, because the Disable Device rules say,
Try Again: Varies. You can retry checks made to disable traps if you miss the check by 4 or less. You can retry checks made to open locks.Thus, unless the party is in a hurry, anyone who could aid opening a lock could instead Take 20 and open the lock him- or herself.As for Taking 20 on Disable Device, that is clearly not allowed:
When a character or creature has plenty of time, and is not faced with threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, he/it can take 20.If you fail a Disable Device check by 4 or more, you cannot retry it. Therefore, unless you fail by less than 4 when rolling a 1, you cannot Take 20.
In LuniasM's defense, the third paragraph of the Disable Device rules talks about generic "devices" and applies the "retry only if you fail by 4 or less" to all of them. Only the Try Again line at the end of the page separates out locks as unlimited retries.
As a GM, I would rule that a rusty old lock in an unused door or chest would have the 4 or less restriction on them. A worse failure would mean not that the rogue's skill failed, but that his luck failed and the lock had rusted permanently closed ages ago. In such a dungeon, most manufactured traps would have rusted into uselessness, too, but rotting floorboards might have created new traps.
However, the 4 or less restriction does open up another use of Aid Another. If the first failure by 5 or more means that no-one can disable the device, create effective sabotage, or open the lock, then instead of having two rogues each independently try to disable the device, the lesser rogue should aid the better rogue, because that would reduce the chance of permanent failure on the first try.
Bodyguard, Halfling's helpful trait, Cavalier of the Dragon level 2, and Spiritualist/summoner/druid with bodyguard companion also.
It's not very optimized and it's difficult to position, but I just find it hilarious to give +10 AC bonuses to all my teammates and do it anyways
Arclight; do all those stack? I thought it was if an ability says you grant +3 you just grant +3. So:
Cavelier = you deliver a +3 on aid another
Helpful Halfling = you deliver a +4 on aid another
I thought this meant that Helpful Halfling overrides the Order of the Dragon ability, starting your Aid Another at +4, not that the 2 add together and give +7?
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Also I had an Aid Another on Diplomacy tonight. The PCs met a group of travelers (gypsies) in an inn and said travelers are between Indifferent to Unfriendly depending on who they're talking to in the party. The party wants to get the gypsies to smuggle said NPC into the city.
First the bard started in and said he'd open with music and stories. From there the paladin chimed in to expound on the greater good the travelers would serve. The Halfling druid related the NPC's struggle to his own oppressive experiences and the sorcerer helped explain the NPC's predicament and play on the emotions of the travelers. After all of that the bard actually made the ask.
Mechanically the bard rolled a couple Perform checks and a Diplomacy as well. Each of the other PCs rolled a Diplomacy for Aid Another and succeeded. Their total roll finished out to a 28 and I rounded it up to a 30 adding a +2 circumstance bonus for the bard's performances.
Fluff-wise it turned into a similar scene to the Podling scene from the Dark Crystal. The bard offering some music, then the travelers joined in, and the sorcerer added some special effects. The Halfling used some acrobatics against the travelers in a dance-off; the paladin, reserved and stodgy, played a great "straight man" against it all and got dragged onto the floor by a group of old Nonas.
In the end everyone had fun and the entire group of travelers were shifted to Helpful. The travelers consented to the favor but on the condition that the party continue to party with them when they meet next. The Silverhair Family will now become a recurring contact in the game world.
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I guess my players are an exception. They don't seem to have any problem using it in combat; either finding opportunities, or giving up their moment of glory to do it.
I used to have a player or two who you'd never catch "wasting" actions to help anyone else succeed, and while that sort of behavior might have been taken for granted when we were teenagers, it became pretty lame to see full grown men with gray in their beards still acting this way. Fortunately, the Natural Selection of our gaming group has weeded those fellows out.
I think it was partly an incident with a party paladin and a demon of some sort that convinced much of the group that Aid Another was still viable at higher levels. Those +2s might not seem like much in some situations, but when you are aiding a character who is made for combatting a particular foe, they add up quickly to a neat and tidy combat with much fewer resources wasted amongst the entire group.
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Aid another isn't useless in combat, you just have to be smart with it. My halfling bard has the Helpful and Battlefield Disciple traits, so he can use a whip to give an ally within 15 feet a +5 on his attack roll. That's all while maintaining his bardic performance, so +6 total. I'm going to dip 3 levels into investigator so he can do that a few times a round to multiple allies!