Wands


Rules Questions


1. Do wands produce some noise during the using? I'm talking about such spells like sleep, not fireball.
2. Do wands produce some light/sparcles/other effects?

Questions are about using wands from stealth.


1. All wands require uttering a word to activate (spell-trigger item activation).


The relevant rules:

"Activation: Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast has a longer casting time than 1 action, however, it takes that long to cast the spell from a wand.) To activate a wand, a character must hold it in hand (or whatever passes for a hand, for nonhumanoid creatures) and point it in the general direction of the target or area. A wand may be used while grappling or while swallowed whole."

"Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity."

So, to answer your questions:

1) Yes, you must speak a word to activate the wand, so there is noise. There isn't any other noise unless the spell itself creates it.

2) The rules don't answer this. Spellcasting and spell completion items like scrolls certainly do have some visible component to the spellcasting, but wands may or may not as they don't count as a spell being cast in many other ways. Expect table variation.

The basic question for 2) is: can you use spellcraft to determine what spell is being cast from the wand? The rules are not very clear here, but I would probably rule that you can. If so, wands do produce some visual component separate from somatic/verbal components (which they don't have) to allow for the spellcraft check. If not, they don't.

Unless someone has a better reference I don't think the rules explicitly answer this.

Scarab Sages

I think the recent FAQ applies.

FAQ wrote:

What exactly do I identify when I’m using Spellcraft to identify a spell? Is it the components, since spell-like abilities, for instance, don’t have any? If I can only identify components, would that mean that I can’t take an attack of opportunity against someone using a spell-like ability (or spell with no verbal, somatic, or material components) or ready an action to shoot an arrow to disrupt a spell-like ability? If there’s something else, how do I know what it is?

Although this isn’t directly stated in the Core Rulebook, many elements of the game system work assuming that all spells have their own manifestations, regardless of whether or not they also produce an obvious visual effect, like fireball. You can see some examples to give you ideas of how to describe a spell’s manifestation in various pieces of art from Pathfinder products, but ultimately, the choice is up to your group, or perhaps even to the aesthetics of an individual spellcaster, to decide the exact details. Whatever the case, these manifestations are obviously magic of some kind, even to the uninitiated; this prevents spellcasters that use spell-like abilities, psychic magic, and the like from running completely amok against non-spellcasters in a non-combat situation. Special abilities exist (and more are likely to appear in Ultimate Intrigue) that specifically facilitate a spellcaster using chicanery to misdirect people from those manifestations and allow them to go unnoticed, but they will always provide an onlooker some sort of chance to detect the ruse.

posted Oct 16, 2015

So, it looks like a spell always has something about it that is identifiable, regardless of how it is cast, unless using one of the abilities from Ultimate Intrigue or elsewhere to conceal it. What, exactly, that is is left up for table variation. But it explains why spell-like abilities, which have no components, can still be identified and still provoke. Spell-trigger items state that they don't provoke, but they don't state that they can't be identified, so I think the normal rules still apply, as the FAQ makes it clear that it's the spell itself being identified, not the casting of it.

FAQ


You can't use spellcraft to identify what is being cast from a spell-trigger item. Using a wand is not casting a spell.


_Ozy_ wrote:
You can't use spellcraft to identify what is being cast from a spell-trigger item. Using a wand is not casting a spell.

It's not the casting that's being identified though, but rather the spell itself.


Command word may be said quitely, so it sounds like a good idea to use it from stealth, thanks.

By the way, at our table you just beed to concentrate while casting SLA, thats why you still provoke in battle, but it is almost invisible in social situations, thats why drow with charm person sla is so cool ;)


_Ozy_ wrote:
You can't use spellcraft to identify what is being cast from a spell-trigger item. Using a wand is not casting a spell.

Like I said, there's no clear rule. However, from the wands section of the CRB:

"Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity."

Using a wand is most definitely casting a spell.


So, it can be counter spelled? You can use a meta magic rod?


Lord Lupus the Grey wrote:
Command word may be said quitely, so it sounds like a good idea to use it from stealth, thanks.

That isn't necessarily true, but I will admit it is unclear.

Verbal components of actual spell casting require you to speak in a strong voice, which has since been established to mean at the very least "not quietly".

Whether or not this standard should be applied to using a wand is up for debate. Personally, as a GM I apply it and you would not be able to stealthily use a wand to cast a spell when you could not actually stealthily cast a spell (assuming you don't have the proper feats).

Sovereign Court

That Cunning Caster (spells) and Subtle Devices (wands etc.) appear on the same page of the same book and do mostly the same thing, suggests that yes, wands are as noticeable as regular spells.

Scarab Sages

_Ozy_ wrote:
So, it can be counter spelled? You can use a meta magic rod?

Here's the FAQ you're looking for:

FAQ wrote:

Items as Spells: Does using a potion, scroll, staff, or wand count as "casting a spell" for purposes of feats and special abilities like Augment Summoning, Spell Focus, an evoker's ability to do extra damage with evocation spells, bloodline abilities, and so on?

No. Unless they specifically state otherwise, feats and abilities that modify spells you cast only affect actual spellcasting, not using magic items that emulate spellcasting or work like spell casting.

Or maybe this one:

"FAQ wrote:

Metamagic: When casting a spell from a scroll, wand, or staff, can I apply one or more of my metamagic feats to that spell?

No.

Note, the first FAQ only says it doesn't count as "'casting a spell' for purposes of feats and special abilities like..."The spirit of the FAQ seems to be that you cannot augment your own use of wands, etc. with an ability, unless that ability is specifically designed to do so. It's up to the GM to decide if that limitation extends to others trying to identify what you are doing or not. The FAQ does not specifically address spellcraft and wands.

Both FAQs also include scrolls, so if the argument is that because of those FAQs, spells from wands can't be identified, then the same would be true for spells from scrolls. I don't think that's the case.

The previous, more recent FAQ, that I quoted upthread does specifically address identifying spells, and it states that spells have some kind of visible or detectable effect that can be identified, separate from any components how how they were cast. It is again up to the GM to decide if that applies to wands. In the absence of anything in the rules for using wands stating that they cannot be identified with spellcraft, and given that FAQ, it seems perfectly reasonable to conclude that they can. Wands/spell-trigger items had to be specifically exempted from provoking, so I'd expect something similar if the rules for spellcraft are meant to work differently.

I'm not aware if counterspelling a wand is ever specifically addressed anywhere, but I see no reason otherwise why it wouldn't work as well.


So, a wand of dispel magic is a awesome counterspelling machine?

Do you have to make concentration checks to cast spells from wands if you're damaged while using them? Or if you're trying to use a wand from a galloping horse?

No, I don't think so. Using a scroll or wand isn't actually casting a spell, it's called out differently in the rules as _activating_ a spell completion or spell trigger item:

Quote:
Spell Completion: This is the activation method for scrolls. ... Activating a spell completion item is a standard action (or the spell's casting time, whichever is longer) and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.

It provokes like casting a spell provokes. If it actually were casting a spell, it wouldn't need this last line.

Quote:
Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. ... Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

There is nothing in the rules that says activating a spell completion or spell trigger magic item is 'casting a spell'. Wands weren't 'specifically' exempted, they just don't provoke. The language used isn't any different than any other non-provoking action.

Scarab Sages

Why wouldn't you be able to use a wand to counter spell? You can ready an action to activate a wand of Dispel Magic just fine. The spell itself works the same (with caster level determined by the wand).

Perhaps "excepted" was the wrong word to use. We have a specific rule that states using a wand does not provoke. We do not have a specific rule that states you can't use spellcraft to identify a spell from a wand. We do have an FAQ that talks about what is actually identified when using spellcraft, and it talks about the spell itself, not the casting. In the absence of a specific rule stating that a spell from a wand can't be identified, and in the presence of an FAQ that says that it's an effect of the spell that is identified, I'm still of the belief that a spell from a wand can be identified. I haven't seen you address why you don't believe that FAQ applies.

Now, if you are saying a spell from a scroll also can't be identified, that's at least a consistent interpretation of the other two FAQs I quoted.

Scarab Sages

HERE is a thread following up on the FAQ from October asking, among others, this very question. I'd suggest a this point going over there and hitting FAQ.


_Ozy_ wrote:
So, a wand of dispel magic is a awesome counterspelling machine?

Not that awesome, since you have to make an opposed caster level roll, which in the case of a wand it likely to be CL5.


Ferious Thune wrote:

Why wouldn't you be able to use a wand to counter spell? You can ready an action to activate a wand of Dispel Magic just fine. The spell itself works the same (with caster level determined by the wand).

Because counterspelling involves casting a spell. Activating a wand is not casting a spell. Counterspelling is under the 'Casting a spell' section heading, and leads off with the sentence:

Quote:
It is possible to cast any spell as a counterspell.

And, since I already provided the rules text showing wands are 'activated' as spell trigger items, using a wand is not casting a spell.


Which part? Default caster level on a wand is the minimum. You can craft it higher if you're willing to pay for it.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Wands All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.