I'm trying to learn the rules for a kineticist, and I'm hoping someone can help me with this detail.
So imagine: I am a kineticist, and I decide that I need to land a powerful blow, so I spend a move action doing Gather Power -- or perhaps a whole round action in order to gain -2 burn cost for my next turn. Unfortunately for me, the gather power is really showy, so the enemy archer who had a readied action to shoot anyone in my party casting a spell or similar action picks me out and looses an arrow, hitting me.
All right, I still have some chance. I have to make a concentration check, or else I will lose the effect and also take the burn I had planned to avoid. To make the concentration check, I roll a D20 + my Kineticist level. And the DC I need to make-or-exceed is, according to the rules: "DC = 10 + damage taken + effective spell level of her kinetic blast"
OK, I know what 10 is, and I can find out the damage taken, but what do the rules mean by "effective spell level of her kinetic blast"? Does it mean the kinetic blast that I will probably be using later on my standard action (or actually on my next turn)? Because I haven't yet decided WHICH blast to use, and I certainly haven't declared it.[1] Does it mean the blast that I know how to use? Because simple blast HAS no level.
Can someone explain what value I need to use here?
[1] http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2st1r?Gather-Power-Infusions-and-Metakinesis
Your Kinetic Blast has an effective spell level of 1/2 your Kineticist level (minimum 1).
What calethosVB said. Your blast is always 1/2 your kineticist level. Your infusions even take the "spell level" of your blast when used.
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I see the OP's problem. The Kineticist is spending their full round to Gather Power. They haven't "cast" anything. That won't come until next round.
Interesting question.
If she has both hands free (or all of her prehensile appendages free, for unusual kineticists), a kineticist can gather energy or elemental matter as a move action. Gathering power creates an extremely loud, visible display in a 20-foot radius centered on the kineticist, as the energy or matter swirls around her. Gathering power in this way allows the kineticist to reduce the total burn cost of a blast wild talent she uses in the same round by 1 point. The kineticist can instead gather power for 1 full round in order to reduce the total burn cost of a blast wild talent used on her next turn by 2 points (to a minimum of 0 points). If she does so, she can also gather power as a move action during her next turn to reduce the burn cost by a total of 3 points. If the kineticist takes damage during or after gathering power and before using the kinetic blast that releases it, she must succeed at a concentration check (DC = 10 + damage taken + effective spell level of her kinetic blast) or lose the energy in a wild surge that forces her to accept a number of points of burn equal to the number of points by which her gathered power would have reduced the burn cost. This ability can never reduce the burn cost of a wild talent below 0 points.
It doesn't matter if haven't actually cast it yet. It's exactly like casting a Summon Monster spell. If you take damage while you're in the middle of your spell, you haven't actually "cast" the spell. You are doing the prep work for the casting.
That's how Gather Power work. Just like the two previous posts mentioned, it's 10+Damage Taken+1/2 your kineticist level.
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It's not the same. If you're taking 1 round to cast summon monster, that entire time is spent casting the spell. Any damage taken during that time is factored into your concentration check.
This is different. The Kineticist is taking 1 round to lower a burn cost of something that hasn't been declared.
In fact, the Kineticist need not even blast anything. They could simply walk away and not require a concentration check at all, thus saving them the chance of acquiring unwanted burn.
It's not the same. If you're taking 1 round to cast summon monster, that entire time is spent casting the spell. Any damage taken during that time is factored into your concentration check.
This is different. The Kineticist is taking 1 round to lower a burn cost of something that hasn't been declared.
In fact, the Kineticist need not even blast anything. They could simply walk away and not require a concentration check at all, thus saving them the chance of acquiring unwanted burn.
And what about spells with casting times greater than 1 round?
Can't casters just decided to walk away from that as well?
If the kineticist takes damage during or after gathering power and before using the kinetic blast that releases it, she must succeed at a concentration check (DC = 10 + damage taken + effective spell level of her kinetic blast) or lose the energy in a wild surge that forces her to accept a number of points of burn equal to the number of points by which her gathered power would have reduced the burn cost.
It doesn't care if you plan to expend the energy. It says make the check or take the burn. Your blast is level/2. You're gathering a lot of energy up. The check is to see if you succeed in containing it and not take damage (burn) from it.
It's not the same. If you're taking 1 round to cast summon monster, that entire time is spent casting the spell. Any damage taken during that time is factored into your concentration check.
This is different. The Kineticist is taking 1 round to lower a burn cost of something that hasn't been declared.
In fact, the Kineticist need not even blast anything. They could simply walk away and not require a concentration check at all, thus saving them the chance of acquiring unwanted burn.
And what about spells with casting times greater than 1 round?
Can't casters just decided to walk away from that as well?
Exactly my point. Hence why I used Summon Monster as an example.
I agree that the kineticist could simply walk away; however, that does not change the fact that the ability flat out tells you how to calculate your required Concentration check. It's based off the idea that you are using Gather Power to reduce the cost of a blast. Therefore, if you take damage while using Gather Power, the Concentration DC is still based off of the effective spell level of the blast. It doesn't matter if you simply stop using Gather Power and walk away, or utilize to reduce the number of burn points for a blast.
No. Break it down.
(If) K takes D during GP AND before using KB-GP
(Then) K must make CCThe clause before and after "and" must occur in order for the second premise to apply.
You're reading too much into this. The ability says "takes damage during or after gathering power and before using the kinetic blast that releases it"
Therefore if you take damage WHILE using GP... you make a concentration check. If you take damage after using GP and "holding the charge".... you make a concentration check utilizing the 10+Dmg+Effective Spell Level
No. Break it down.
(If) K takes D during GP AND before using KB-GP
(Then) K must make CCThe clause before and after "and" must occur in order for the second premise to apply.
The game can't predict the future. Also, gather power can only be used to reduce burn cost for a blast. Nothing else. What it is saying is if you take damage somewhere, ANYWHERE, between GP and your KB then you have to make a check.
GP fills you with energy. If you take damage before releasing it then you must make a check or burn. On your next turn you may choose to dissipate it and just let it go then that's fine. But if you're hit while GP-ing then roll for concentration.
No. It should be read this way: "If the kineticist takes damage during gathering power-STOP-she must succeed at a concentration check (DC = 10 + damage taken + effective spell level of her kinetic blast)"
OR
"If the kineticist takes damage after gathering power and before using the kinetic blast that releases it she must succeed at a concentration check (DC = 10 + damage taken + effective spell level of her kinetic blast)"
The K has already committed to the action of Gathering Power. Now, the archer says "Huh..." That's weird, I wonder what that K is doing. I don't like this... ATTACK! The K cannot suddenly say "Oh, I was just kidding. I'm not actually going to do anything with this now that I'm being attacked."
That is essentially what it seems like you're saying. That is an incorrect interpretation of the rules.
I think you're reading the "and" wrong and misinterpreted it because of that. The order of actions for a kineticist goes (#1) gather power (#2) kinetic blast. The and means after #1 and before #2 to specify that after #1 and after #2 means no check. #2 (or release) is the only choice for a kineticist after #1. If he takes a hit before actively/releasing and 'walking away' then he needs to make the check.
OK, so my basic question has been answered: the DC of the concentration check is 10 + damage sustained + 1/2 level of kineticist. I do agree with Dragonfly that this could have been made more clear with a different wording.
I understand what you're saying, Dragonfly, that the syntax is off for the sentence. In that case perhaps the following would be more appropriate in your interpretation.
"If the kineticist takes damage during gathering power, or after gathering power and before using the kinetic blast that releases it, she must succeed at a concentration check (DC = 10 + damage taken + effective spell level of her kinetic blast) or lose the energy in a wild surge that forces her to accept a number of points of burn equal to the number of points by which her gathered power would have reduced the burn cost."
Whenever I read through a Rules book like this and see syntax that is a little off... I find it's best to think about how a 6th grader would read that sentence. I learned in the military and from being a police officer that writing an After Combat Action Report or a Criminal Arrest report at your own reading/writing comprehension is usually not that best way to go. Write at the reading comprehension of a JR. High School student. Otherwise you have the chance of confusing the reader and spend more time explaining the meaning behind what you said, than actually explaining what you said.
Texas Snyper, I think you are wrong when you state that the Kineticist must perform a blast after a Gather Power. Consider the case where the Kineticist wants 2 points of burn reduction. She spends a full round gathering power, and then everyone else on the battlefield gets an action before she can act again. By then, things may be very different.
Perhaps all of the enemies have teleported away. Perhaps the nearest enemy is now dead and it would take more than one move action to reach the next-nearest. Maybe they surrendered. Maybe the Kineticist herself is now under a charm person spell (that did no damage) or otherwise prevented from taking further actions. Nowhere do the rules state that the Kineticist must perform a kinetic blast, nor does it specify the penalty for not doing so -- it only says that IF she does so then the Gather Power reduces the burn cost of doing it.
Texas Snyper, I think you are wrong when you state that the Kineticist must perform a blast after a Gather Power. Consider the case where the Kineticist wants 2 points of burn reduction. She spends a full round gathering power, and then everyone else on the battlefield gets an action before she can act again. By then, things may be very different.
Perhaps all of the enemies have teleported away. Perhaps the nearest enemy is now dead and it would take more than one move action to reach the next-nearest. Maybe they surrendered. Maybe the Kineticist herself is now under a charm person spell (that did no damage) or otherwise prevented from taking further actions. Nowhere do the rules state that the Kineticist must perform a kinetic blast, nor does it specify the penalty for not doing so -- it only says that IF she does so then the Gather Power reduces the burn cost of doing it.
I don't see where Texas Snyper said that the kineticist must perform a blast after Gather Power. What he/she is saying, is that Gather Power can only be used to modify a kinetic blast, nothing else. In other words, you cannot use GP to reduce the cost of a Utility talent. If you decide not to make a KB after gathering power, then it dissipates. As he/she said here:
GP fills you with energy. If you take damage before releasing it then you must make a check or burn. On your next turn you may choose to dissipate it and just let it go then that's fine. But if you're hit while GP-ing then roll for concentration.
I even said as much that he could. But not as an immediate reaction to taking damage in order to avoid burn.
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"She must succeed at a concentration check (DC = 10 + damage taken + effective spell level of her kinetic blast)." Kinetic blasts have the same spell level for a given kineticist, so that number is known (it's 1/2 her kineticist level). It doesn't need to read future state because it's not talking about one particular hypothetical future blast; it's talking about the kineticist's kinetic blast class feature's DC.
Hey Mark, since you popped in here... Would you mind clarifying what's happens when a kineticist uses Gather Power, but then does not actually use a blast? Does is dissipate harmlessly like we all seem to think?
Can you just disperse power you have gathered? Nope, nothing allowing you to do so. In fact:
before using the kinetic blast that releases it
This seems to indicate that only the blast itself can release the energy.
Can you hold onto gathered power beyond the (up to) 1 full round action+move action you have gathered it? Nope, nothing allowing you to do so.
Actually the inference is that if you don't use you kinetic blast you will take the burn damage as if you failed the concentration check as the energy has nowhere to go.
If the kineticist takes damage during or after gathering power and before using the kinetic blast that releases it, she must succeed at a concentration check (DC = 10 + damage taken + effective spell level of her kinetic blast) or lose the energy in a wild surge that forces her to accept a number of points of burn equal to the number of points by which her gathered power would have reduced the burn cost.
The kineticist has two ways to getting rid of the energy gathered: blasting in the same round as a move action gather energy or on his next turn with 1 round spent gathering energy; or not blasting in the allocated time and the energy is gone.
But even if he didn't plan on blasting, if he gets hit before the energy is gone, then the concentration check is needed and the DC is always 10 + damage taken + effective spell level of the blast.
^ yes, that's the question being considered here.
Nobody debates that's the Concentration check of the blast.
But if the Kineticist is only gathering power, and doesn't blast, there should be no Concentration check required.
I'm assuming you mean if the kineticist GPs and then decides not to blast without taking damage, then I agree. You should be able to just allow it to dissipate. Granted, you could just as easily fire your blast into the empty air or against a wall.
Now if you mean the kineticist GPs, then takes damage, but decides not to blast and shouldn't be required to make a Concentration check, then I disagree. A kineticist GPs only to reduce the Burn cost of a blast. So you are taking a risk at a longterm GP and the possibility is that you lose your blast and you take extra Burn. It's no different than taking the risk of a Full Round casting time spell. If you take damage and you fail the Concwntration check you lose the spell slot. That's the comparable risk to GPing and possibly taking Burn. You should not be able to retroactively decide that the risk was not worth taking after you made the decision to take the risk... and it doesn't pan out.
Can you just disperse power you have gathered? Nope, nothing allowing you to do so. In fact:
before using the kinetic blast that releases itThis seems to indicate that only the blast itself can release the energy.
Can you hold onto gathered power beyond the (up to) 1 full round action+move action you have gathered it? Nope, nothing allowing you to do so.
Actually the inference is that if you don't use you kinetic blast you will take the burn damage as if you failed the concentration check as the energy has nowhere to go.
Nothing explicitly says you can but nothing explicitly says you can't. The blast is a concentrated release of the gathered energy. What keeps you from doing a more diffused release.
Also, I'd arguee that since it says you can do a move GP after a full round GP then it implies that there's nothing preventing you to chain more full round GPs in a row.
If anyone is paying attention to the split-off this discussion had from the N.Jolly thread, I've actually reversed my opinion. If you take damage at all, you immediately fulfill also the condition of "before using the kinetic blast that releases it", because you haven't used the kinetic blast that releases it yet.
In addition, a kineticist's blast's effective spell level never changes from ability to ability, so that quantity is also known.
So yeah. Taking any damage during gather power immediately requires a concentration check.
Gather Power doesn't rely on the kinetic blast you plan on making, it relies on the kinetic blast you are capable of making. Whether or not you decide to fire off a kinetic blast after using Gather Power doesn't matter, what matters is the action of using Gather Power.
Gather Power states the DC is 10 + damage taken + your blasts effective spell level. It doesn't ask for the effective spell level of what you plan on using, only the effective spell level of your blast right now.
So, a 10th level Kineticist has a DC of 15 + damage taken regardless of any infusion, composite or other modifier they could have on their planned blast. An 18th level Kineticst planning on using using Pushing Infusion on their blast still has to make a DC 19 + damage taken to successfully Gather Power if they take damage while using Gather Power. Why? Because the DC is based off her blast's effective spell level right now not what it will be in the future.
The point is kind of moot on the spell level of infusions, because I'm pretty sure their level is overriden by the level of the blast, which is always half the kineticist level, maximum spell level 9th. So even if an 18th level kineticist uses pushing infusion on her blast, it's still a 9th level spell, despite pushing having an effective spell level of 1st level.
If anyone is paying attention to the split-off this discussion had from the N.Jolly thread, I've actually reversed my opinion. If you take damage at all, you immediately fulfill also the condition of "before using the kinetic blast that releases it", because you haven't used the kinetic blast that releases it yet.
In addition, a kineticist's blast's effective spell level never changes from ability to ability, so that quantity is also known.
So yeah. Taking any damage during gather power immediately requires a concentration check.
That's the point I was trying to make... apparently just not very eloquently. Sorry, I've been up at 4:45 AM the past two days and my brain is a little fried. Hence why I was hoping for some additional clarification on whether I had been doing the incorrect interpretation.