5th Edition.
But seriously, I ran a party of Half-orc Monk, Tiefling Rogue, Human Gunslinger, Elf Rogue, and Dwarf Inquisitor, and it worked fine. The inquisitor never used her spells. She was basically a fancy fighter. Probably should have played a fighter, actually. We played from level 1 to around level 6 or 7. The elf rogue was eventually replaced with a sorcerer, though, around level 5 or 6.
I just dropped more healing potions.
EDIT:
If you don't want to use magic items, you can use the 5th Edition rules for healing.
Characters can take a Short Rest of 1 hour and spend Hit Dice to heal. When you spend a hit die to heal, you roll 1 hit die (1d8 for rogues, 1d10 for fighters, 1d12 for barbarians, etc.) and add you Constitution modifier to the result. You regain a number of hit points equal to that total.
You regain half of your spent hit dice when you finish a Long Rest of 6 to 8 hours. You also regain ALL hit points at the end of a Long Rest.
If you want to be grittier, you can require Long Rests to spend hit dice, and/or do not heal ALL hit points at the end of a Long Rest. If you want to be superheroic, you can allow PCs to spend hit dice as a swift action or standard action or move action or even an immediate action. Or you can reduce a Short Rest to 1 or 5 minutes.
It's a really great system and very customizable, depending on how you want to deal with hit point damage.
BBT's right, Pathfinder's not the game for this. If you must though, a few things to consider. Long-lasting conditions (curses, ability drain, negative levels, petrification, blindness, maybe even death) need accessible cures or people are going to drop out of the campaign, or you're going to need to replace their characters easily and rapidly. You might include healing herbs (q.v. athelas in the Lord of the Rings) or alchemy, or maybe the party is a military unit and get reinforcements as required.
If the enemy has battlefield control and the players don't then PCs can easily be separated and killed. Restrain yourself from this as a DM, it wouldn't feel fair.
There's fewer squishies but protecting those that exist, maybe a rogue with 10 Con or whatever, just became much harder. Make sure people know this before they make rogues with 10 Con.
BBT's right, Pathfinder's not the game for this. If you must though, a few things to consider. Long-lasting conditions (curses, ability drain, negative levels, petrification, blindness, maybe even death) need accessible cures or people are going to drop out of the campaign, or you're going to need to replace their characters easily and rapidly. You might include healing herbs (q.v. athelas in the Lord of the Rings) or alchemy, or maybe the party is a military unit and get reinforcements as required.
If the enemy has battlefield control and the players don't then PCs can easily be separated and killed. Restrain yourself from this as a DM, it wouldn't feel fair.
There's fewer squishies but protecting those that exist, maybe a rogue with 10 Con or whatever, just became much harder. Make sure people know this before they make rogues with 10 Con.
Also, making rogues with 10 con is generally a good way to get you killed in a hurry, magic items or no.
Also, making rogues with 10 con is generally a good way to get you killed in a hurry, magic items or no.
Battlefield control or no is more the point, the frontline PCs can't necessarily stop the enemy getting around to attack the squishy PCs. But yes, not a combat winning strategy at the best of times.
Pathfinder is really odd without ANY magic. Most options - especially Monsters - assume that PCs will have at least SOME manner of magic and/or magical gear.
You can make a campaign that's Mostly-Muggle by having Magic Items be found by PCs (but not bought at Crazy Achmed's Magic Item Emporium), disallowing Crafting, and by having only Martials, Alchemical Casters, and Psychic Casters be allowed.
Martials
Barbarian, Brawler, Cavalier, Fighter, Gunslinger, Monk, Unchained Monk, Ninja, Unchained Rogue, Samurai, Slayer, Swashbuckler, Skirmisher Ranger, Vigilante*
Alchemicals
Alchemist, Investigator
Psychics
Kineticist, Occultist, Medium, Mesmerist, Spiritualist, Psychic
You can also throw in Warrior of the Holy Light Paladin, as well (they lose spellcasting), but that might still be too overtly magical even without spells for your tastes.
---
You can also get around the need for common Magical Items by using the Innate Item Bonuses rules in Pathfinder Unchained.
You know that might be unbalanced and probably really unfair, right? Warn your players ahead of time that they will be adventuring with a significant disadvantage.
If they're cool with that challenge, cool. But if they're not, expect some kind of disgruntlement from happening.
Also, part of the fun of the PF game is getting the option to play a magic-using character. Removing that option can be very frustrating. It would be like playing chess with only pawns, no knight, bishops, rooks, or queens--but with your opponents having all those fancy options and pieces.
The idea is that the players all play nonmagical characters, not that the world is nonmagical. Magical NPCs and enemies (especially enemies) are fine.
That is also not going to help. Dealing with casters and things that game assume you can solve because it assumes some magic will cause major issues.
You can probably get around it by being very selective about which encounters you use, but be sure to take everything into account. As an example, invisible enemies will be a problem. Being out in the middle of nowhere and getting hit by a permanent spell such as blind/deafness, and having no caster to get rid of it is another example.
Another system.D20 Modern
Ew, sweet GOD no.
SpyCraft is d20 Modern that WORKS.
NEVER EVER use d20 Modern, unless you absolutely despise yourself.
The idea is that the players all play nonmagical characters, not that the world is nonmagical. Magical NPCs and enemies (especially enemies) are fine.
Unless your characters are up for an extreme challenge, they are going to absolutely HATE you for this.
I can understand saying "Mundane Martials only" but you're going to need to give them magical gear at least.
Innate Item Bonuses only get you so far; when you're dealing with things like Flying monsters, Incorporeal monsters, Invisible monsters, etc., you really NEED some magical effects backup as a squishy human.
Dealing with the lack of magic items is actually simple. Use the automatic bonus progression from Pathfinder Unchained. There is even a no magic item variant that is exactly what you are looking for. This will give you about the same power level as if the characters were equipped with the standard magic items. What you will not get are the unusual or utility items.
The problem of no spell still remains and that is harder to deal with. Healing and condition removal is going to be the biggest problem. Normally you could use magic items when the party does not have a healer but that does not work for you. I would suggest at least allowing potions to be available to the players. Maybe the church creates healing and restoration potions at a discount like they do for holy water.
Or you could alter the Heal skill so it can do condition removal. Maybe a custom feat or trait for additional benefits? Or a better healing kit?
EDIT:
Or a masterwork healing kit?
It will work up to a certain point as long as you let them have easy access to potions and have a few options in place to allow for faster healing.
For example you might treat half of the damage non-lethal damage, this will effectively double the effect of potions used in combat and allows the characters to be more durable from combat to combat.
The heal skill gets to be more meaningful but might need some subtle improvement.
Be more careful considering the monsters you use, consider whether they have the tools to handle a given encounter judging it by more than just rough CR rating.
It will be a different game, with some proper house rules it might work better than the established rules at higher level even.
Dealing with the lack of magic items is actually simple. Use the automatic bonus progression from Pathfinder Unchained. There is even a no magic item variant that is exactly what you are looking for. This will give you about the same power level as if the characters were equipped with the standard magic items. What you will not get are the unusual or utility items.
The problem of no spell still remains and that is harder to deal with. Healing and condition removal is going to be the biggest problem. Normally you could use magic items when the party does not have a healer but that does not work for you. I would suggest at least allowing potions to be available to the players. Maybe the church creates healing and restoration potions at a discount like they do for holy water.
It is not just about the numbers. It is more about a lack of options. If it was just a numbers issue then we could simply suggest to add bonuses at certain levels.
To deal with a lack of magical healing, you might try Evil Lincoln's Strain-Injury Variant Hit Point Rule. Under this system only damage from critical hits and "killing blows" has to be healed; other damage goes away between encounters.
Maybe a combo of 5E healing through spending Hit Dice, and a way to spend Hit Dice to get some status removal? Like spend 3 HD to get the benefits of lesser restoration, spend 5 HD to get the benefits of remove blindness, remove disease, remove curse, and spend 9 hit dice to get restoration?
Maybe use hero points? And maybe use hero points to spend hit dice to get spell-like benefits?
The idea is that the players all play nonmagical characters, not that the world is nonmagical. Magical NPCs and enemies (especially enemies) are fine.
That's a horrible, horrible idea you've got right there. I just had my party very nearly wipe yesterday due to an encounter that couldn't be solved without magic, and they happened to be in your exact circumstances at the time. Their main caster was otherwise occupied, and they were well below WBL, so they had no magic weapons.
I can't help but be interested in why you want to run this - all your posts have been short thus far. Could you tell us a lot more about the circumstances you want to run this under, by any chance?
That's a horrible, horrible idea you've got right there. I just had my party very nearly wipe yesterday due to an encounter that couldn't be solved without magic, and they happened to be in your exact circumstances at the time.
But presumably a 'mundane party' campaign wouldn't have an encounter like that.
Pfft!
What's so horrible about it?
Don't listen to the naysayers.
If your players are into it, this could be a very cool campaign. Yes, they'll have problems with things like healing and condition removal. Yes, they'll be very vulnerable to certain foes.
But you'll set the stage for having the rare magic item be *really* special. And they'll need to think outside the box a lot more.
I'd say go for it.
In my current campaign, we have a fighter (lore warden), a paladin, a barbarian and an alchemist. I told them they'd suffer for not having any arcane or divine spellcasting. They're just reach 5th level, and starting to run into problematic adversaries. The solution? As soon as one of them dies, there will be a huge incentive to add a spellcaster into the party composition. Or, once they reach 7th level, one of them will probably take leadership and add a spellcaster cohort.
Low magic or no magic does work in Pathfinder. It'll be your job as DM to keep encounters from becoming impossible due to the lack of typical solutions.
I mean there are some game systems like Pendragon that focus on the "all martial" concept. But Pathfinder works just fine.
That's a horrible, horrible idea you've got right there. I just had my party very nearly wipe yesterday due to an encounter that couldn't be solved without magic, and they happened to be in your exact circumstances at the time.But presumably a 'mundane party' campaign wouldn't have an encounter like that.
Normally, one would suppose yes. But in this case, he said this:
The idea is that the players all play nonmagical characters, not that the world is nonmagical. Magical NPCs and enemies (especially enemies) are fine.
Which isn't going to turn out well.
Another thing that's going to be special about a 'no player magic' game is that there won't be any healing. That's easily fixed by changing the pace of adventures, though.
Have high-intensity missions where there's two to four encounters spaced out over a day or two, and then put a month of recovery or so between missions. That also makes gaining access to new abilities a lot more organic than it is in traditional d&d, which is nice.
If one makes a lot of provisions and special attempts at providing foes that a no-magic party can deal with, then yes, you can probably run such a campaign. It can be lots of fun even; I've been part of something like that and enjoyed it. However, that doesn't read like it's what My Self is up to. And trying to run a regular adventure-path style game with pcs who have neither magic nor magic items will result in pcs dying all over the place.
Normally, one would suppose yes. But in this case, he said this:
The idea is that the players all play nonmagical characters, not that the world is nonmagical. Magical NPCs and enemies (especially enemies) are fine.Which isn't going to turn out well.
Some magical enemies (like incorporeal undead) can only be defeated by magic, but there are plenty that can be beaten by mundane means.
Some magical enemies (like incorporeal undead) can only be defeated by magic, but there are plenty that can be beaten by mundane means.Normally, one would suppose yes. But in this case, he said this:
The idea is that the players all play nonmagical characters, not that the world is nonmagical. Magical NPCs and enemies (especially enemies) are fine.Which isn't going to turn out well.
Sure, it's just a lot harder. Anything that has DR / Magic or Alignment just went up at least one CR over where ordinary parties could beat them.
Two words: Downtime and Followers.
No joke. They'll need to heal, so serious dungeon crawls are out. They'll need a lot of mundane help, so cohorts or followers can be a massive boon. Mundane healing in pathfinder is... not great. But, at low-to-mid levels it can be done.
After a major encounter, plan on them being down using long-term care for several days.
Some magical enemies (like incorporeal undead) can only be defeated by magic, but there are plenty that can be beaten by mundane means.Normally, one would suppose yes. But in this case, he said this:
The idea is that the players all play nonmagical characters, not that the world is nonmagical. Magical NPCs and enemies (especially enemies) are fine.Which isn't going to turn out well.
You need to be choosy about what you throw at the party, though.
Going by the language the OP used, it didn't sound like they intend to carefully devise obstacles that utilize magic but are defeatable by mundane means. What it sounded like was that the OP intends to prohibit magic for the party but otherwise use a fairly typical mix of magical threats. Many of which will be difficult if not impossible to defeat without the use of magic. If that is the OP's intent, then GM Runescarred Dragon is right to say that things are not going to turn out well. Because they probably won't.
Hero Points!
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For more realism, one could down grade the price of all normal gear and of course starting wealth to those levels. Down grade by one (If it's already a CP though might need to increase the amount purhcased)
But Alchemical and Magical items would retain their Gold Pieces prices same would go for magical item creation. Thus cutting down on the magic the party will try and get through merchants instead of quests.
I would propose using Hero Points and 5E-style Hit Dice spending for healing.
Then, for status-removal, make a Heal check and spend 1 Hero Point to allow an affected character to spend a number of hit dice equal to the minimum caster level for the spell needed to remove a status from the affected character. The character spending the Action Point must make a Heal check with a DC = 15 + the number of hit dice spent. So 3 HD for lesser restoration, 5 HD for remove blindness/deafness, remove curse, remove disease, 7 HD for neutralize poison, 9 HD for restoration, etc. etc.
Alternatively, an affected creature can choose to spend 2 Action Points and spend a number of HD equal to the minimum caster level of the "virtual spell," like 3 for lesser restoration, 5 for remove blindness, etc.
Another system.D20 ModernEw, sweet GOD no.
SpyCraft is d20 Modern that WORKS.
NEVER EVER use d20 Modern, unless you absolutely despise yourself.
Perhaps you could favor us with a link to Spycraft?
Why the D20 Modern hate? I've played it before, you know. It's lower powered than D20 Pathfinder, but it's certainly playable.
But sell me on it.
The most-glaring thing has always been that you have to play 1 of 6 NPC-ish classes in d20 Modern for several levels before you're allowed to take REAL classes.
Spycraft throws you right into actual classes.
Each class has an AC bonus that levels with them, it uses "Action Dice" which are a similar-yet-better system to PF's Hero Points, it makes use of Wounds & Vitality extensively with a slightly redesigned Critical System that ties into Action Dice (just confirming a Crit doesn't cause the Crit to happen - you have to spend Action Dice for a Crit to occur), which lets guns deal more baseline damage than melee weapons while not invalidating melee weapons entirely (melee weapons often have superior Crit Ranges).
Character creation is significantly more flexible, with the institution of Talents and Specialties (a system not unlike Traits, but also takes the place of Races, since SpyCraft assumes an all-Human group, though there are rules for abnormal characters in the rulebook).
The Combat system is significantly different than d20 Modern or Pathfinder. You have 2 "Half Actions" each round or 1 "Full Action." A Move Action, any Attack, or any Standard Action is a Half-Action. This means that you can always move & attack, move twice, or attack twice, even at lv1. Full Actions are Running, Charging, or anything else designated as a Full Action. There is no Full Attack Action - you get what you get.
There are significantly fewer Feat Trees, and what ones there are are not nearly as long and complex. Two-Weapon Fighting, for instance, is simply "If you have a Light or One-Handed Weapon in each Hand, you may make 1 Attack at a -2 Penalty with each of those weapons per Attack Action" so with 1 Feat you can get 4 Attacks per round from level 1, or you can move and Attack with both weapons (the catch being that you realistically can never get more than 5 Attacks per round - one from a haste/speed effect, and 4 from TWF).
Speaking of Feats, SpyCraft instituted scaling feats long before PF did, so feats which give a bonus to a skill or save don't suck once you hit later levels because they grow with you slowly over time.
It's a vastly more flexible and rewarding system than d20 Modern, and works with modern firearms and tech much better than normal D&D/d20 rules do.
Pathfinder is great for fantasy, but for real tech, SpyCraft is just leagues better.
It takes some exceptional levels of optimization to create a competent Pathfinder party that is restricted to 4th level casting, and I'm not sure if it's possible to create a party that can survive standard encounters with zero magic. You NEED something that can use Su or Sp abilities to survive, even if that is a Barbarian or a Paladin.
By the way, if you use the suggestion in the OP about not using wealth or a wealth-like pool, (i.e. Automatic bonus progression) be aware that characters' math, AC especially, is going to be quite a lot weaker than normal. At fifth level, a character is expected to a little bit more than 10k worth of items. For a monk, that might look like this:
Magic fist Amulet +1
ring of protection +1
Cloak of resistance +1
Bracers of armor +2
So he's down -1 to hit, -1 to damage, -1 to saves and -3 AC over a regular monk.
I'm singling out AC because it's the one combat stat that doesn't increase with levels in some way (perhaps even just a little). A sword-and-board fighter will probably have 19-ish AC. A third level fighter might have 23 AC (from full plate, +2 Dex & shield), and that's pretty much where he'll remain for the rest of his career.
This is a good thing to be aware of when you design encounters. Lack of spells & healing isn't the only thing to look out for - regular encounters have to be scaled down too. Things with Power Attack, especially, become a lot more dangerous.