Questions concerning Claw Blades


Rules Questions


Hi there--trying to get some clarification on how things work as I am trying to explain the same thing to my gaming group.

1) Do Claw Blades work with feats like Weapon Focus: Claw? (Explanation: Tailblades DO allow it, and I was curious if this was the same. Generally when things do NOT work with something, it's stated.)

2) Are Claw Blades Masterwork quality already or do you pay additional for it on top of the amount cited? It looks like they might already be.


2) They are not, you need to spend the appropriate amount to enhance the set of 5 items to make them masterwork.

1) As an exception based rule set, the opposite is true. The rules tell you what you can do. It just so happens that exceptions to the general rule probably carry the "you can't do this" to clarify things.

As for weapon focus, claw Blades state it is a claw attack so it should work.


1) Claw blades are a overly complicated rule set designed so that cat folk can use their claws, but not have to deal with the fact that they are using natural attacks.

It is still claws, but they act like manufactured weapons. The rules are very particular to keep them labeled as claws, expressly for the purposes of feats (it is look at claw pounce specifically, since it was published in the same book- but yes, this counts).

Basically, if it didn't do this with claw related feats, then there would be as much need for all those rules, since it could have been a slashing based cestus or spiked glove.

2)

Clawblades wrote:
The claw blades can be enhanced like a masterwork weapon for the normal costs.

So no, they CAN be enhanced. They are not enhanced already.


lemeres wrote:

1) Claw blades are a overly complicated rule set designed so that cat folk can use their claws, but not have to deal with the fact that they are using natural attacks.

It is still claws, but they act like manufactured weapons. The rules are very particular to keep them labeled as claws, expressly for the purposes of feats (it is look at claw pounce specifically, since it was published in the same book- but yes, this counts).

Basically, if it didn't do this with claw related feats, then there would be as much need for all those rules, since it could have been a slashing based cestus or spiked glove.

2)

Clawblades wrote:
The claw blades can be enhanced like a masterwork weapon for the normal costs.
So no, they CAN be enhanced. They are not enhanced already.

I can only "strongly disagree" that they are overly complicated.


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Skylancer4 wrote:
I can only "strongly disagree" that they are overly complicated.

They are items designed to turn a weapon into a different weapon. They are flaunting in the order of around 4 different rules sets (natural weapons, weapons, enhancing weapons, definition of weapons for feats)

I am not saying the clauses are necessarily complicated, but instead commenting on what they are accomplished.

The fact that they still count as claws is vague, and only reveals itself when you think about their use in the context of the ton of "claw" focused options in the same book.

There is also this masterwork thing. They give a +1 enhancement bonus and cost 300+ gp, much like a masterwork weapon, but...wait...

No? Maybe that clause means they are treated like they are already a masterwork weapon, and as such you can put normal +1 and flaming stuff on them?

See- this is what I mean. We may have both been confused about the enhancement thing. So I am changing my answer to 2)- yes, they are basically turning your claws into masterwork manufactured weapons. Go ahead and enhance away.


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lemeres wrote:
Skylancer4 wrote:
I can only "strongly disagree" that they are overly complicated.

They are items designed to turn a weapon into a different weapon. They are flaunting in the order of around 4 different rules sets (natural weapons, weapons, enhancing weapons, definition of weapons for feats)

I am not saying the clauses are necessarily complicated, but instead commenting on what they are accomplished.

The fact that they still count as claws is vague, and only reveals itself when you think about their use in the context of the ton of "claw" focused options in the same book.

There is also this masterwork thing. They give a +1 enhancement bonus and cost 300+ gp, much like a masterwork weapon, but...wait...

No? Maybe that clause means they are treated like they are already a masterwork weapon, and as such you can put normal +1 and flaming stuff on them?

See- this is what I mean. We may have both been confused about the enhancement thing. So I am changing my answer to 2)- yes, they are basically turning your claws into masterwork manufactured weapons. Go ahead and enhance away.

Agreed, I was just re reading it and when I skimmed it I read it as they can be enhanced as masterwork. The second time it does state they are considered masterwork.

Liberty's Edge

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Sorry to res the thread a year later, but first I wanted to thank you for pointing out that they are masterwork and the enhanced statement refers to magic "+X enhancement bonuses" costing less if the weapon is already masterwork. I too had been reading them as being able to be made into masterwork versions, and was confused both as to if that would make them +2 attack, and if they weren't masterwork why they had an odd price of 305gp.

As they are masterwork I now wonder why they don't have non-masterwork versions, without the +1 atk, for just 5 gold and save everyone the confusion, not to mention make it so they are affordable at level 1/start. And what about special material costs, 610gp for cold iron? Since RAW is double stated price for cold iron, and the stated price is 305gp not 5gp with 300 masterwork quality cost which would instead make them 310gp when masterwork or 10gp as normal quality. What about a weight for Mithral (I prefer mithral weapons to silver as they count as silver but don't have the attack penalty) or Darkwood and other weight based materials, because while it says "blades" it never specifies they are or have to be metal anywhere in the description. Also as they are marked as equipment not a weapon how do you price the material listings that only have options for ammunition armors and weapons, such as Adamantine, do you count as a weapon (in which case why would five blades the size of claws cost the same as a meter or longer great sword?) or based on the size of the individual claws likely using about the same material as five pieces of ammunition would you price the claws the same as 5 pieces of ammunition. (On a side note why doesn't adamantine have a price breakdown for weapons like alchemical silver, different for light, one-handed, and two-handed, and double weapons priced as one-/two-handed dependent on if it is one or two heads being made of adamantine? If you take the 3000gp price for weapons as the maximum or two-handed price then one-handed at half that would be 1500gp, and light, if following Alchemical Silver's ratio, would be ten times the cost of ammunition or 600gp.)

The biggest benefit I see for them is being able, as light weapons, to use them for both weapon finesse and the TWF feat chain/iterative attacks with high BAB. While arguably the TWF benefits (with ImprovedTWF and iterative attacks) only become better than natural attack (with two claws as a primary attacks) at BAB 6(+) the entry on natural attacks only has them count as light off-hand weapons (only in terms of penalties) when mixing natural attacks and weapon attacks stating that in that case (the penalties) they can be effected by TWF/multiattack and only at 6(+) BAB as they become secondary attacks at -5 BAB before the TWF penalties. So to get to use them with TWF chain you have to use another weapon and they give a second attack at the second iterative attack bonus level not the first (+6/+1/+1 before TWF penalties [maybe +6/+1/+1/+1 with ImpTWF?] vs. the standard +6/+6/+1/+1 with TWF and ImpTWF and again before TWF penalties). This is also all STR based, which as a DEX bonus race, and with TWF requiring high DEX, is rather inefficient. Even with Nat attacks counting as Light when combined with weapon attacks (and all the problems with that model and TWF) that is only for determining the Penalties to attacks, and as such does not allow for using Weapon finesse to use Dex for attacking, not to mention the Unchained Rogue's Finesse Training allowing Dex-to-Dmg with a Finess-able weapon. While the Dex-Dmg only comes in at 3rd level by which time you should be able to afford a pair of claw blades, the bonus feat of Weapon Finesse is given at first but won't apply to claws until you can afford claw blades and can find a place to buy them (or make them if you spend points on craft).

Basically if the point is to make it so you can build a claw fighter that holds up at higher levels without using weapons, and does so by making the claws count as weapons, then it would do so better if they were actual weapons. Make them exotic weapons and give them a special *see description* entry for damage, which states that damage is based on existing natural attack damage. Then fluff stating the reason as being that making them fit the character requires they be equivalent size to existing claws with larger or longer natural claws allowing an equal size of bladed sheath to fit over them (and larger weapons do more damage so if you have larger natural claws/higher damage die then it makes sense the damage of the blades would be higher than if they were for a smaller claw) and for the character to stay as proficient with them as they would their natural claws they are made to be light and form fitting. Then you have a *Special* note stating that characters with Natural claw attacks from racial feats or abilities (as opposed to class abilities or feats that grant claws) gain racial proficiency with claw blades, but that any character with claws may take "exotic weapon proficiency: claw blades"; however, without claws to fit on the claw blades have nothing to attach to and cannot be equipped.

Another new(?) weapon could also be potentially be made, Clawed gauntlet, that is also sold individually like spiked and regular gauntlets (as weapons, separate from those that are with medium/heavy armor) but that does slashing damage. Perhaps kept as exotic, like the claw blades would be, as utilizing them effectively isn't as simple as just punching and requires a new combat skill set reflected in spending a feat for proficiency. Just doing d4 dmg and counting as an armed attack, like spiked gauntlets, might make them seem like not worth the feat to get them though so maybe they have higher damage at d6, or they have either a greater crit range or crit multiplier (19-20 or x3), or they have the Disarm special quality from being so curved/hooked? Would also give a Special statement that they make fine manipulations with hands harder and when worn impose a penalty to disable device checks, escape artist checks to untie ropes (you have blades on your fingers, just cut the rope), linguistics checks to make a forgeries, and sleight of hand skill checks as well as Dex checks with your hands.

TL;DR - claw blades, as a way of allowing for a feral-feeling claw attacking character to stay effective at later levels through access to special materials and magic enhancements, should just be made exotic weapons that require natural claws to equip to (and thus their damage is the damage of the claw they are attached to), and grant racial proficiency to characters with claws from racial abilities or feats just as they could use their natural claws. No natural claws/claw attacks mean nothing to equip them to, and no damage from them. Create a clawed gauntlet instead.

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