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The Merciful Wood utility power of the phytokineticist (Occult Origins) says the following:
This seems to heavily imply that any kineticist can deal nonlethal damage with their kinetic blasts, provided they do take the standard -4 penalty to their attacks for dealing nonlethal damage.
Is this true, and if so, is it only limited to physical blasts that have attack rolls, or can energy blasts potentially deal nonlethal damage as well?
I would imagine it is only for the physical blasts. The ones dealing S, P or B damage. As these are effectively "weapon" attack rolls.
Unless spells can also deal non lethal damage. Which... would be kind of awesome!
Nonlethal Damage with a Weapon that Deals Lethal Damage
You can use a melee weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage instead, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll.
I don't think any kinetic blast is able to do nonlethal damage normally.
As for Kinetic blade/whip, maybe? It says use a melee weapon rather than wield. But I don't know about the energy types though.
Nonlethal Damage with a Weapon that Deals Lethal Damage
You can use a melee weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage instead, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll.
I don't think any kinetic blast is able to do nonlethal damage normally.
As for Kinetic blade/whip, maybe? It says use a melee weapon rather than wield. But I don't know about the energy types though.
I think that Utility power seems to set a precedent that you could use them to deal Nonlethal damage with the standard -4 to attack; however, I think that it would be limited to only physical blasts. I cannot see doing Nonlethal damage with Fire Blast without a specific Wild Talent.
We know that nonlethal energy damage is not a new thing at least. Brown mold deals nonlethal cold damage, as does severe cold weather.
We know that nonlethal energy damage is not a new thing at least. Brown mold deals nonlethal cold damage, as does severe cold weather.
True, but those are specific exceptions. Most energy spells require a meta magic feat to deal Nonlethal. That's why I would think energy might require something along those lines as well; however, I would be fine with a ruling indicating all Wild Blasts could do Nonlethal. More options are never a bad thing for kineticists!
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Normally the blast can't do non-lethal damage.
We know that nonlethal energy damage is not a new thing at least. Brown mold deals nonlethal cold damage, as does severe cold weather.
Think there was a spell or ability that did non-lethal fire, don't recall where.
I believe Mark commented that the blasts couldn't do non-lethal at all as an option. when this was asked in his thread.
I believe Mark commented that the blasts couldn't do non-lethal at all as an option. when this was asked in his thread.
A bit of searching, found it! Thanks for the heads up.
Well, I do believe that answers the question! For homebrew stuff, consult GM. For PFS, then it's a no.
We know that nonlethal energy damage is not a new thing at least. Brown mold deals nonlethal cold damage, as does severe cold weather.True, but those are specific exceptions. Most energy spells require a meta magic feat to deal Nonlethal.
Exceptions to what? There is no rule saying that energy damage can't deal nonlethal damage, so there is nothing to except it from.
The reason why you need a metamagic feat for most energy spells is because most energy spells aren't considered weapons with attack rolls.
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We know that nonlethal energy damage is not a new thing at least. Brown mold deals nonlethal cold damage, as does severe cold weather.True, but those are specific exceptions. Most energy spells require a meta magic feat to deal Nonlethal.Exceptions to what? There is no rule saying that energy damage can't deal nonlethal damage, so there is nothing to except it from.
The reason why you need a metamagic feat for most energy spells is because most energy spells aren't considered weapons with attack rolls.
So can you take a -4 to hit to do nonlethal with a scorching ray?
So can you take a -4 to hit to do nonlethal with a scorching ray?We know that nonlethal energy damage is not a new thing at least. Brown mold deals nonlethal cold damage, as does severe cold weather.True, but those are specific exceptions. Most energy spells require a meta magic feat to deal Nonlethal.Exceptions to what? There is no rule saying that energy damage can't deal nonlethal damage, so there is nothing to except it from.
The reason why you need a metamagic feat for most energy spells is because most energy spells aren't considered weapons with attack rolls.
No, the rules for dealing nonlethal damage say it needs to be a melee weapon. Scorching ray is ranged.
FAQd primarily because normally you can't deal non-lethal with lethal ranged attacks.
I can see no real reason to differentiate between energy and physical blasts other than a niggling memory (that I have failed to track down a definitive source for) that says you can't deal non-lethal with for example the fire damage of a flaming weapon.
No, the rules for dealing nonlethal damage say it needs to be a melee weapon. Scorching ray is ranged.So can you take a -4 to hit to do nonlethal with a scorching ray?We know that nonlethal energy damage is not a new thing at least. Brown mold deals nonlethal cold damage, as does severe cold weather.True, but those are specific exceptions. Most energy spells require a meta magic feat to deal Nonlethal.Exceptions to what? There is no rule saying that energy damage can't deal nonlethal damage, so there is nothing to except it from.
The reason why you need a metamagic feat for most energy spells is because most energy spells aren't considered weapons with attack rolls.
True, there are no specific rules stating that energy attacks cannot deal nonlethal damage, I concede that much. You also make a good point about spells and the metamagic feat. The issue I'm seeing is that you also state that nonlethal requires a melee weapon, and Kinetic/Composite Blasts are not melee weapons. Therefore, without the special exception for Merciful Wood, you cannot deal nonlethal with a kinetic/composite blast. Even with using Kinetic Blade/Whip, because those still are not melee weapons, they are still Kinetic Blasts jsut shaped differently.
I believe Mark commented that the blasts couldn't do non-lethal at all as an option. when this was asked in his thread.A bit of searching, found it! Thanks for the heads up.
Thanks for the link! The fact that I'm not the only one asking this kind of question only reinforces the notion that it should probably be FAQ'd.
Even with using Kinetic Blade/Whip, because those still are not melee weapons, they are still Kinetic Blasts jsut shaped differently.
Has this been specifically clarified in an official capacity already? The kinetic blade is specifically referred to as a weapon several times in that ability's entry.
I assume the second to last bit is referring to crit range, weapon properties (like disarm or trip), etc. It seems absolutely clear to me that a kinetic blade is considered a weapon.
Whether or not it is considered a MELEE weapon, is up in the air though I think.
That's what I was referring to, RD. Just not very eloquently... The Infusions refer to the blast as a "weapon", but not specifically a "melee weapon". Unfortunately with the emphasis you placed on the nonlethal rules requiring a "melee weapon", then one could potentially argue that kinetic blade/whip would not be a feasible choice for nonlethal rules.
I'm in your court on this, RD, I would love for the kineticists to have more options available to them; however, I am playing Devil's Advocate and pointing out the flaws that I see when they surface. (Probably should have pointed that out sooner...)
Kinetic Blast
Kinetic blasts count as a type of weapon for the purpose of feats such as Weapon Focus. The kineticist is never considered to be wielding or gripping the kinetic blast (regardless of effects from form infusions; see Infusion), and she can't use Vital Strike feats with kinetic blasts. Even the weakest kinetic blast involves a sizable mass of elemental matter or energy, so kinetic blasts always deal full damage to swarms of any size (though only area blasts deal extra damage to swarms).
Bolded the important part. It is the kinetic blast that is the weapon. It is a ranged weapon, thus the point-blank shot and precise shot feats.
Unless word of god says otherwise, I would think kinetic blade would be a melee range ranged attack.
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True, there are no specific rules stating that energy attacks cannot deal nonlethal damage, I concede that much. You also make a good point about spells and the metamagic feat. The issue I'm seeing is that you also state that nonlethal requires a melee weapon, and Kinetic/Composite Blasts are not melee weapons. Therefore, without the special exception for Merciful Wood, you cannot deal nonlethal with a kinetic/composite blast. Even with using Kinetic Blade/Whip, because those still are not melee weapons, they are still Kinetic Blasts jsut shaped differently.No, the rules for dealing nonlethal damage say it needs to be a melee weapon. Scorching ray is ranged.So can you take a -4 to hit to do nonlethal with a scorching ray?We know that nonlethal energy damage is not a new thing at least. Brown mold deals nonlethal cold damage, as does severe cold weather.True, but those are specific exceptions. Most energy spells require a meta magic feat to deal Nonlethal.Exceptions to what? There is no rule saying that energy damage can't deal nonlethal damage, so there is nothing to except it from.
The reason why you need a metamagic feat for most energy spells is because most energy spells aren't considered weapons with attack rolls.
Ok, then can you take a -4 to do nonlethal damage with shocking grasp or chill touch?
Kinetic Blast
Kinetic blasts count as a type of weapon for the purpose of feats such as Weapon Focus. The kineticist is never considered to be wielding or gripping the kinetic blast (regardless of effects from form infusions; see Infusion), and she can't use Vital Strike feats with kinetic blasts. Even the weakest kinetic blast involves a sizable mass of elemental matter or energy, so kinetic blasts always deal full damage to swarms of any size (though only area blasts deal extra damage to swarms).Bolded the important part. It is the kinetic blast that is the weapon. It is a ranged weapon, thus the point-blank shot and precise shot feats.
Unless word of god says otherwise, I would think kinetic blade would be a melee range ranged attack.
"Melee range ranged attack" would imply you'd be provoking if you use it in melee range.
Kinetic Blade and Whip are melee attacks.