Making a Blasting Sorcerer


Advice


So I've been contemplating a Blast Sorcerer build for a while now, trying to push the limits of what damage given spells can do, and was wondering as to how I can make it better. (Before anyone comes in and says "GOD WIZARD IS BETTER!", the intent of this sort of character isn't have the ability to do anything and everything; it's the ability to pump his damage spells to the maximum and basically melt everything.)

Now, here's the basic premise:

Half-Orc Cross-Blooded Sorcerer (Orc + Draconic [Fire]) 20
FCB: Half-Orc selection
Racial Trait Variants: Sacred Tattoo, Pariah
Variant Multiclassing: Wizard (Admixture Specialization)

Some more specifics:

Attributes, 20 Pt. Buy

Strength - 7
Dexterity - 10
Constitution - 12
Intelligence - 13
Wisdom - 12
Charisma - 20 (18 + 2)

Traits - Magical Lineage (Fireball), Wayang Spellhunter (Fireball)

Feats (* = Bonus)

1. Spell Focus (Evocation)
5. Spell Specialization (Fireball)
7*. Improved Initiative
9. Intensify Spell
13. Quicken Spell*, Selective Spell
17. Spell Perfection (Fireball)
19*. Toughness

Skills

Perception (MAX)
Spellcraft (MAX)
Use Magic Device (MAX)

The pluses here are that I have access to the Admixture School power by 7th level thanks to VMC, which means that even if I'm out of my element (which is Fire-based; ironic, surely, but that's where the biggest numbers come from), I'm still hitting pretty hard with Fireballs. Tack on the ability to add half of my level to Evocation spell damage, and we're putting on the pain and then some.

The downside is that I lack the Metamagic Feats to capitalize on my Blasting ability. Intensify, Selective, and Quicken are the bare essentials, but lacking Empower or Maximize or Widen can really hurt my ability to effectively blast, which makes me question whether the VMC is really worth it.

As a slightly related question, can I cast lower level spells into higher level spell slots? (i.e. Can I use a 4th level spell/day to cast a 3rd level spell?)

Critiques and such are appreciated.


You can, but if you don't use heighten spell, it's not at the higher spell level. Does one of your feats add a spell level? That's all you need for that.

Get a rod of each for Empower, Maximize, and Widen. You can probably only use one or 2 rods at a time, but when will you need all 3 at once?


I personally reckon Admixture is NOT worth it.

- You gain flexibility through the school power
- You gain +1/2 Cl damage to any spell

But you lose 5 feats (4 if you choose a bonus feat at 15th level. This means you lose core elements of your blaster build.

Things I really miss in your build:

- Empower or Maximize
- Daze
- Preferred Spell (kinda nice for metamagic on your key blast, worth it despite the need for Heighten)
- Spell Penetration (and Greater), Greater Spell Focus

I would lose Selective and just tell your buddies to stock up on fire res or to get out of your way :). Not a big fan of Widen either, costs too much. Only time you'll ever use this is to clear mooks (bosses can get a small blast) and let's face it, for mook-duty you can just cast two (Quicken) and (Maximize/Empower) and clear them without any further metamagic anyway.

I personally would play either a Sorcerer 1/Admixture 19, or go straight Sorcerer and use your much needed feats for getting blasts. In case of Fire res, just make sure you have a different element blast lying around. Not ideal, but Versatile evocation also changes the descriptor, meaning you'll lose the Orc FC and Draconic damage anyway.

1. Spell Focus (Evocation)
3. Spell Specialization (Burning hands, change to fireball at 5)
5. Intensify Spell
7. Improved Initiative,* Heighten Spell
9. Preferred Spell (Fireball)
11 Empower/Maximize Spell
13. Quicken Spell*, Dazing Spell
15. Spell Perfection (Fireball)
17. Spell Penetration
19. Toughness*, Greater Spell Penetration

I'd think of something like this. Though, I'd maybe drop the preferred spell and Heighten to get Greater Spell focus: Evocation and move spell penetration forward.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Rambear beat me to it. Standard cookie cutter blasty sorc is what da bear said.

I would add, if you have the room (and miss a full move action when you pump Fireball), Spontaneous Metafocus.
Or, perhaps a higher priority is a party friendly feat, especially if teamwork is lacking or the battles just get too jumbled: Selective Spell.

Good luck and have fun with your boomer!


Rambear, I don't see any reason to take Intensify Spell at 5th level when it won't be useful for the build's primary attack spell until 9th. With your Magical Lineage/Wayang Spellhunter combo, there are several metamagic feats that will be useful right off the bat.


Hmmmm, I can see the Admixture Wizard choice with the Sorcerer dip being good, though this means that I won't need to bother with FCBs, and could probably pick a race other than Half-Orc.

If I went full Sorcerer, however, the blasting power would be better, albeit more focused (and therefore more prone to resist/immunity problems). Another option can be to go Dwarf, become Acid-based, and have less resist/immunity problems, but the -2 Charisma is a killer. Maybe going Human with Racial Heritage (Dwarf) would allow me to select the FCB (since that's really all I need from being a Dwarf) can solve that problem. Unfortunately, if I did go that route, I wouldn't have the accessibility of Fireball. I suppose it's just a matter of what I want to deal with instead, resist/immunity problems, or reduced viability.

I'll probably not bother with VMC. The main reason I'd bother to VMC would be for the flexibility and the slightly increased damage, but other than that? Meh. And since the VMC abilities are Intelligence-based anyway, it defeats the purpose, since it would only be for 4 times a day. It's not worth 5 feats.

I'll take the other stuff into consideration, thanks guys.


I like my blackened oracle. Kinda completely different build, but same goal. Pump out lots of fire damage.

Divine Scion, plus a 1 level dip in Sorcerer, means +4 damage per die against evil creatures (+1 anytime, +1 fire, +2 against evil).

I really like the concept. Lawful Good worshiper of Vildeis, smites the unholy with righteous flame. Flying dino, full plate armor, high AC, high HP (and only takes half damage from everything). Makes enemies reroll saves against his spells if they're within 30 ft.

Could post the build, if you're interested. Though...in the middle of changing a few aspects. Was considering changing to the Ancient Lorekeeper archetype for some more utility spells, but really, Use Magic Device could take care of that. Permanent Arcane Sight, Aura Sight, See Invisibility. Have three levels of Pally (Shining Knight), but may drop that down to two. Would immunity to fear, +5 ride, +13 saving throws for the mount. But would gain another full spell-casting level, another druid level worth of flying dino (bringing it from 15 to 16), and another revelation (probably be Natural Divination).


Varisian Tattoo, anybody?

Also consider that if you turn your fireball to ice via the Admixture ability, you can tag Rime onto it (using a rod).


Avoron wrote:
Rambear, I don't see any reason to take Intensify Spell at 5th level when it won't be useful for the build's primary attack spell until 9th. With your Magical Lineage/Wayang Spellhunter combo, there are several metamagic feats that will be useful right off the bat.

The reason I took it at that level is because I see no other options really to take. I guess you take Empower, if you assume the -1 from Waying and Lineage stack on Empower (making it +0).

I took Intensify mostly for Burning Hands at that level, since you won't get Fireball till 6th anyway. I assumed 7d4 + 17 was plenty reason :).

I could see the argument to move Heighten to 5th and take preferred at 7, but preferred doesn't do much till you apply metamagic to Fireball.

So Empower would probably be your best bet, though I'd stick with Intensify for Burning Hands.


Fireball's got a great range but you don't get it until level 7 being a crossblooded sorc. You might want to pick a spell like Burning Arc to use at levels 5-6. This also lets you delay taking Intensify, and it's what you use instead of Selective; you're going to want Spell Penetration.

If you're playing with a GM who only ever uses one scale on his battlemat, Burning Arc might outright replace Fireball.


I think the only thing I'd have to change is the VMC.

I mean, I could try to go Human, select Racial Heritage (Kobold), and be able to choose the Kobold FCB, which is really damn nice (basically the Orc FCB, except to any of the 4 elements). This means that I could become Electricity based, using spells like Lightning Bolt instead of Fireball, but at the same time it kind of defeats the purpose.


The trick to being a blaster is you have to solve how you will be able to do damage to those that are immune to your favorite spells damage type (fireballs fire). You need to be able to change the element at least a few times and I find that being an elemental bloodline solves many problems but admix or heighten spell can work as well. As for intensify at 5, the reason you want this at 5 is so that you can boost burning hands or shocking touch and then swap it to fireball as it is more abundant and powerful.


I second Varisian tattoo and will also mention Blazing robe.


1. Spell Focus (Evocation)
3. Spell Specialization (Burning hands, change to Burning Arc at level5 Then to Fireball at level 7)
5. Intensify Spell
7. Improved Initiative,* Empower Spell
9. Varisian Tattoo
11 Spontaneous Metafocus (Fireball)
13. Quicken Spell*, Dazing Spell
15. Spell Perfection (Fireball)
17. Spell Penetration
19. Toughness*, Greater Spell Penetration

I tried to combine some of the advice into a new build.

The remaining problem lies with the late access to Spell Penetration and no Greater Spell Focus.

I'd suggest picking up Lightning bolt, or perhaps Cone of Cold as alternatives. Sure, you'd lose +1 damage/die for a none fire spell, but it's that or use elemental spell. Personally I'd drop half-Orc and go Human for the extra feat (Elemental spell) and grab the FCB for moar spells when blasting is not the best option :)


I just noticed something. With Elemental Spell, you can make Fireball do electric damage. But...it doesn't say that the Energy Descriptor (in this case, "Fire") changes. So by RAW, wouldn't the Shockball still do +1 point of damage per die with the Gold Draconic Bloodline? Though, the Favored Class Bonus doesn't help, unless it's actually doing fire damage. Even then, it'd be a lot better doing full electric damage without that bonus, than doing an extra 10 points, just to have 30 points resisted (or worse, it all immunitified).

But I would, overall, agree with those saying drop VMC. The four feats you would lose isn't worth +10 damage. I like the idea of dropping nukes, too, but I'd rather four feats almost every time.

Which brings me to: How does your build have 8 feats? Normal VMC has only five (and Wizard adds one, to make six).

Also, Goth Guru, you can only use one metamagic rod at a time. You can add your own feats to the spell, but can't dual wield the rods and use them both for the same spell.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Didn't suggest Varisian Tattoo because thought he did not have the room. If you have room, VT has more oomph earlier in your career. If you wait till mid levels, you'll want Spell Pen More.

Also since the OP is considering other races: pyro gnome is one of my picks for fire sorc. Bonus to stats you want, dump to one that is not critical (ware shadows!!!) and a nice racial with fire plus even an extra damage option at low levels ( produce flame )

Have fun!

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Varisian Tat affects caster level, which is doubled by Spell Perfection. The combo of Spell Pen, Varis Tat, Spell Spec, and evo focus means the instant you get Spell Perfect, you are casting at level +10, and maxing out your fireball damage and don't need to worry about penetration.

==Aelryinth


Words of Power is great for blasting: mix and match elements, schools, and even saving throws! Free Heighten Spell when you do so too.


@ Rambear: I can still choose the Human FCB as a Half-Orc. There is a FAQ that says I can.

However, I suppose you are right; the Orc FCB, while not bad, isn't really worth getting too crazy about. At 20th level, that's +10 damage to the most common element used in the game. Which is weaksauce, because most enemies will have resistance or immunity to that element.

@ Mechanical Pear: Sorcerer Bonus Feats.

@ All: So here's another draft (bonus points for those who know where the name comes from):

Voldoartus Varsoon
Human Crossblooded (Orc/Dragon [Red]) Sorcerer
Strength - 7
Dexterity - 10
Constitution - 12
Intelligence - 13
Wisdom - 12
Charisma - 20 (18 + 2)

Traits - Magical Lineage (Fireball), Wayang Spellhunter (Fireball)

Feats (* = Bonus Feat):
1. Spell Focus (Evocation), Spell Specialization (Burning Hands - Fireball)*
3. Varisian Tattoo
5. Spell Penetration
7. Empower Spell, Improved Initiative*
9. Intensify Spell
11. Spontaneous Metafocus (Fireball)
13. Quicken Spell*, Greater Spell Penetration
15. Spell Perfection (Fireball)
17. Maximize Spell
19. Toughess*, Dazing Spell

Skills:

Spellcraft (MAX)
Use Magic Device (MAX)
Perception (MAX)

General Performance Overview:

1st level - Burning Hands: 3D4+6; DC 17
4th level - Burning Arc: 7D6+14, Flaming Sphere: 3D6+6; DC 18
7th level - Empowered Fireball: 1.5(10D6+20), Lightning Bolt: 8D6+8; DC 19
10th level - Empowered Intensified Fireball: 1.5(13D6+26), Empowered Lightning Bolt: 1.5(10D6+10); DC ~21
13th level - Empowered Intensified Fireball: 1.5(15D6+30), Quickened Intensified Fireball: 15D6+30; DC ~22

The damage seems promising. Average rolls with these spells could 1-shot equivalent-CR enemies, assuming straight damage. (Which might not apply by 2nd level).

I need to fit Heighten Spell on my feat choice list to keep Save DCs relevant, but I'm not sure what to get rid of. A lot of the Metamagics I have are basically required.

Some suggestions as to what spells I can select to help diversify my damage types would be appreciated as well.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

If we're trying to squeeze even more, retraining out of spell pen into spell perfection at 15th is also viable. I didn't suggest it because we are way above a standard power curve (4 15 point buys in an AP kind of setting) already. Though admittedly, dunno the campaign specifics.

The builds posted above are fine and more than enough to turn most battlefields into molten glass. :)


My blaster wizard is a touch different

I took wayang spell hunter, and magic knack. Then I dipped in dual blooded sorcerer orc and white drag, then took a level of waves oracle.

So when I do cold damage I slow them as well. Rime it to do both.

Mine is for PFS so I focused on the levels I could play with it.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

@ Rambear: I can still choose the Human FCB as a Half-Orc. There is a FAQ that says I can.

Feats (* = Bonus Feat):
1. Spell Focus (Evocation), Spell Specialization (Burning Hands - Fireball)*
3. Varisian Tattoo
5. Spell Penetration
7. Empower Spell, Improved Initiative*
9. Intensify Spell
11. Spontaneous Metafocus (Fireball)
13. Quicken Spell*, Greater Spell Penetration
15. Spell Perfection (Fireball)
17. Maximize Spell
19. Toughess*, Dazing Spell

1st level - Burning Hands: 3D4+6; DC 17
4th level - Burning Arc: 7D6+14, Flaming Sphere: 3D6+6; DC 18
7th level - Empowered Fireball: 1.5(10D6+20), Lightning Bolt: 8D6+8; DC 19
10th level - Empowered Intensified Fireball: 1.5(13D6+26), Empowered Lightning Bolt: 1.5(10D6+10); DC ~21
13th level - Empowered Intensified Fireball: 1.5(15D6+30), Quickened Intensified Fireball: 15D6+30; DC ~22

The damage seems promising. Average rolls with these spells could 1-shot equivalent-CR enemies, assuming straight damage. (Which might not apply by 2nd level).

Some suggestions as to what spells I can select to help diversify my...

You are ofcourse right about the FCB. Can't believe I missed that, my own sorcerer is Half-Elf and uses the same ruling :)

As for the feats:

1. Spell Focus (Evocation), Spell Specialization (Burning Hands - Fireball)*
3. Intensify Spell
5. Varisian Tattoo
7. Empower Spell, Improved Initiative*
9. Spell Penetration

Why change the order you ask?

A) at level 3 you already can at 5d4 for Burning Hands, so Varisian Tattoo is basically a dead feat at this level. To be fair, this also applies to Intensify, but...

B) at level 4 you do not get Burning Arc (because of -1 spell known). At level 4 Intensified Burning Hands will get you 6d4 + 12, while with Varisian Tattoo you still cap at 5d4 + 10.

C) Varisian Tattoo will be important as soon as you get Burning Arc, which comes at level 5, whereas Spell Penetration works for SR, which is not really THAT relevant at level 5-8.

D) you need Empower at level 7, as that is when you get Fireball. So that can stay the same.

As for the damage, seems promising indeed.

I would however consider not taking Greater Spell Pen. At that level you already have +2 (Spell Pen) and +2 (Spell Focus and +1 (Varisian) to Cl, which apply to checks to bear SR. In fact, I reckon spell penetration is less of a problem than DCs

Instead you could either go for Elemental Spell (dropping the need for other blasts), take Dazing Spell earlier (Dazing is gold) or go for Greater Spell Focus.

As for Heighten, I'd skip it. Assuming a Belt of +4 and +3 (at level 12) from levels you will be casting at Int 27, that is +8.

Fireball DC would be 10 + 3 + 8 + 1 = DC 22. At the CR 12-15 range most creatures have +8-+11 on Reflex saves, so gives you better than even money to have them fail the save. Personally I'd feel comfortable with it, since Reflex is not the strong suit of many monsters. But Greater Spell Focus does have the additional benefit of doubling in value at level 15.

I am also not sure about Spontaneous Metafocus. Sure, having your move action available is nice, but unlike spells with casting time 1 round you can cast metamagic spells and they will go off in your turn. So all this feat gives you is a move action. Which is good. But, you could also just Kill stuff. Stuff which is Dazed will not kill you, meaning less incentive to move :)

As for spells:

Just make sure you have a reasonable alternative at most levels.

Take Acid Dart at level 2 maybe (though there are too many good defensive spells at level 2), Lightning Bolt at 3, Acid Spray/COne of Cold at 5th, Cold Ice strike at 6th. Take Sirocco for some control plus damage aswell. But I think Elemental Spell metamagic is still better.


Definitely Dazing Spell at some point.


@ Rambear: I agree with it all, but there is just a minor problem with Elemental Spell; when you select the feat, you have to choose a single element type, and that selection is fixed for whenever you want to use it. This means if I want to be able to cast Fireball as both Acid or Electricity, for example, I'd have to take the feat twice.

With that being said, what element would you suggest as a primary alternative?

Here's a refined feat choice:

Feats (* = Bonus):

1. Spell Focus (Evocation)*, Spell Specialization (Burning Hands - Fireball)
3. Intensify Spell
5. Varisian Tattoo (Evocation)
7. Empower Spell, Widen Spell*
9. Spell Penetration
11. Dazing Spell
13. Quicken Spell*, Elemental Spell (Acid/Electricity/Cold?)
15. Spell Perfection (Fireball)
17. Maximize Spell
19. Improved Initiative*, Greater Spell Focus (Evocation)

I decided to do away with Toughness and select Widen Spell. It's not so much that Toughness isn't great, it's just it seems like a dead feat when doubling the affected area is a much more viable and powerful effect.

Shadow Lodge

How much do you care about the bloodline abilities? If the answer is "not much," then Tattooed Sorcerer is for you! It stacks with crossblooded, and lets you keep your bloodline arcana, but replaces some bloodline abilities and eschew materials with some varisian tattoo stuff.

I just wrote up a Sorcerer 1/ Arcanist 10 character for PFS using a similar build and get CL12 scorching rays at level 6.


I am not a huge fan of Widen, because.... Well, just throw two blasts :). Still, not a bad choice.

I personally think Acid would be good, but that is merely based on an old post (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nqnp?Most-common-energy-resistancesimmunities ) which states Acid is the least commonly resisted/immune element (except for sonic).

However, this advice depends on the type of campaign and the monsters associated with it. The best advice I can give you is to look at some of the enemies that you'd expect to encounter that have fire resistance and see what other kind of immunities/resistances they have.

Bestiary search ftw, but am lazy and I reckon you could do that yourself :)


thistledown wrote:
Tattooed Sorcerer is for you! It stacks with crossblooded,

Alas, they don't.

- Tattooed Sorcerer replaces the 1st level bloodline power.
- Crossblooded Sorcerer replaces all bloodline powers. It only expands on it, but that is still a replacement.

****************

OP, don't forget Goblin Fire Drums. They add an additional +1 damage per die to fire spells (+10 max). Yes, this eats up a move action, which is lost to a sorcerer (metamagic spells) without an additional feat. It is open to the wizard-crossblooded-sorcerer pretty easily though.

**********************************************

Goblin Fire Drum

Aura faint transmutation; CL 3rd; Weight 1 lb.
Slot none; Price 2,000 gp (standard), 4,500 gp (greater)

DESCRIPTION

This small crude-looking drum is attached to a strap long enough to loop around the wearer's neck. A successful DC 12 Perform (percussion) check activates the drum, which enhances any nearby natural or magical fire as long as the bearer spends a move action each round to continue playing. All fires (including fire spells and effects) within 30 feet of the bearer deal an additional +1 point of fire damage per die (maximum +10).

All unattended flammable alchemical objects such as tindertwigs, flasks of oil or alchemist's fire, and fireworks within this range have a 10% chance of spontaneously igniting or exploding (as appropriate to the item) when the drum activates. This chance increases by 5% each round and is checked at the start of the performer's turn as long as the playing continues.

A greater goblin fire drum has all the above abilities and can create pyrotechnics once per day.


I forgot about Goblin Fire Drums :) It's a good one. Two feats can give you a mount (Animal Ally), and if you're half-orc (or, as you will probably definitely have, the Orc Bloodline, which gives you the orc subtype) you can pick up one more, Beast Rider, for a flying mount.

Mounts are usually better for spellcasters, I believe, than martials. If the mount moves, you are limited to one melee attack, unless you invest in a ton of feats, and wait til a high level. A spellcaster can use his full-round action (metamagic-spell) and still be able to move freely, if the environment allows.

No idea if you feel like blowing three feats away, but yeah. With extra cash, you could carry a Tower Shield on your back, and make it Hosteling. During a dungeon crawl, he's in his pokeshield until he can be released again. Unless you're going into the underdark for days, or what have you (he'd pop out after 24 hours. You can put him right back in after, though, but yeah).

Though, I like the Oracle had more synergy with the mount (Glorious Heat feat, free mount (instead of two feats), pumped up saves, etc).

If you are doing VMC, you get a familiar. If you have a staff that has a sorcerer spell, and Shield Other on it, you can still charge it once a day with your spells. UMD to cast Shield Other, with a Familiar Spell metamagic rod (lesser). Improved Familiar to get (Inevitable, Arbiter) or (Kyton, Augur) depending on your alignment/tastes, and now you take half damage from everything. The other half goes into an immortal HP sink you have tucked away. (The inevitable is fun in that it Truespeech. If you apply the Sage archetype, give him Diplomacy, and he can be your talker :D).

None of these are neccesarily optimal ideas. Slightly far from it. But fun options, nonetheless.


Goblin Fire Drums seem interesting, but at the same time it's kind of a waste, especially when it's about as good as the Half-Orc FCB. It scales better, but because I have to spend a Move Action to play it every round (instead of it being a Move Action to initiate, then a Free Action every round afterward), it's kind of pointless.

Although spending a feat for Spontaneous Metafocus would be nice to make an item like this viable, I'm kind of feat-starved.

Also, I'm not sure if they would or would not stack.

FAQ wrote:
This even applies for something as small as adding 1 extra round of bardic performance each day, adding an additional bonus feat to the list of bonus feats you can select, or adding an additional class skill to the class.

If you notice, what's mentioned here as examples of "it still alters X" are adding things to current subjects.

The Bloodline Powers don't really add anything, they simply give you a choice between two options instead of the flat option. I can see the grounds for it not being allowed, because providing a choice might be considered adding something, but I can also see grounds for it being allowed, since regardless of your choice, you only get one 1st level Bloodline Power, one 7th level Bonus Feat, and one 9th level Bloodline Power.

@ thistledown: Did your PFS GMs approve of you stacking the Tattooed Sorcerer with the Crossblooded archetype with that build? If so, then I think that's grounds enough for it being allowed in a general purpose game, and is definitely something to consider (since that might actually allow me to get Spontaneous Metafocus).


Oh, and you can put 1 point into craft Alchemy, you can make alternate spell components for cheap. As a blaster, it's a little extra boost.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/herbs-oils-oth er-substances


Interesting. Here's the ones I found that are relevant:

Alchemist's Fire (20g): Amplifies Fireball, Burning Hands, etc. to catch enemies on Fire.
Alchemist's Ice (40g): Amplifies Cone of Cold.
Brimstone/Sulfur (1g): Adds +1 Damage to [Acid] spells.
Black Powder (10g): +1 Damage to Evocation spells.
Saltpeter (1g): +1 Damage to [Fire] spells.
Urea (2g): +1 Caster Level to [Cold] spells.
Alchemist's Acid (10g): Amplifies Acid Arrow, Acid Fog, etc. with extra effects

Overall, not bad. Tacking on +2 damage and catching enemies on fire for 31g/Fireball is pretty neat. Not to mention some interesting options for my alternate choices (Cold and Acid look very promising).

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Note that saltpeter, saltpeter and urea are already components of blackpowder, not sure they'd stack!

==Aelryinth


Under normal circumstances, you would be incorrect. Mechanically speaking, they all provide different bonuses for different conditions, which are caused by being separate sources, and therefore are grounds for stacking.

Unfortunately, there is this entry in one of the Pathfinder Companion Books that stymies the concept of stacking them together:

Alchemy Manual wrote:
Alchemical reagents may also be used as an alchemical power component, augmenting the effects of certain spells when used as an additional material component. Using a reagent as an alchemical power component requires a number of doses of the reagent, affects only spells that meet the listed criteria, and augments only an effect the spell already produces (for example, you can use black powder as an alchemical power component only for a spell that deals energy damage). Reagents do not stack with either themselves or one another, and are expended after use.

This means that if I were to use Cone of Cold, for example, I can only use one of the 3 alchemical items that otherwise normally affect it. You cannot stack multiple reagents together. Unfortunately, this means that I can either have my Fireballs catch enemies on fire (+1D6 damage), or deal +1 Damage, which is lame.

My guess is, they didn't allow these reagents to be stackable because of the potential abuses that can come of it. With a Cone of Cold example, I could be dealing 20D6+42 with an Intensified Cone of Cold using Alchemist's Ice, Black Powder, and Urea, all at once. Without these reagents, it would be ~19D6+19. Big difference for spending ~52 gold for the cast.


It's pretty widely accepted than any archetype that alters a class ability, even a little, cannot stack with another archetype that alters the same skill. If you have a GM that plays loose with that (and honestly, if it's a casual game, why not?), then go for it.

About components:

Short Version: I changed my mind about crafting your own gear. With a single skill point, and 75gp for a portable alchemist's lab, you can earn an extra 2 gp worth of alchemical goods a day while out adventuring. With 8,200 gold investment, and applying the Valet archetype to your familiar, at about level 12, you're making 35ish gold pieces of alchemical gear a day, at the cost of 12ish gold of raw materials.

It'd take 350 sessions of four-hour crafting to pay off that initial gold investment. It would take that long before it ever started earning you money. So yeah, ignore it, just buy those goods at that local alchemist's shop.

Really, I thought crafting was easier than that. Surely I messed up my math somewhere.


Darksol, note that not all Alchemical Power Components are Alchemical Reagents.

So you could still use Alchemist's Fire with an alchemical reagent.

EDITED TO ADD:

Though there is no text that says you can't use multiple power components (only that you can't use multiple reagents), note that any typed bonuses won't stack with the same type, and multiple untyped bonuses from the same source don't stack.


Where is the admixture feat coming from? Pathfinder book or 3.5 book?
I'm thinking a metamagic rod you can deploy as soon as you make that knowledge check would be best.


This one, you mean?

Also, I do forget about Metamagic Rods. Since I won't actually be using any weapons, and Staves are kind of lamesauce anyway, dual-wielding Rods would be a powerful and flavorful aspect. Putting them into Efficient Quivers (or a Handy Haversack) and drawing them out as needed would be pretty awesome and useful.


Goth Guru wrote:

Where is the admixture feat coming from? Pathfinder book or 3.5 book?

I'm thinking a metamagic rod you can deploy as soon as you make that knowledge check would be best.

Admixture is a class feature of an evocation admixture Wizard, called Versatile Evocation. The Feat is Elemental Spell Metamagic

Problem is that you would need three lesser rods of elemental metamagic, as each feat/rod is bound to one element. I'd get one for Acid and be done with it.

I agree with Darksol that Rods are great to add to add to the power and versatility of a blaster. Especially when focusing on Fireball, since (though cheesy), the type of Rod is based on the original pre-metamagic level. So a Quickened Empowered Maximized Fireball with a rod of Maximize (7th level slot, if both metamagic traits are applied, 3rd if you quicken it with Spell Perfection) could be maximized with a Lesser Rod of Maximize.

I'd always try to get a Rod of Maximize and Elemental, anything else is just gravy :)


I'm not sure if that really makes sense. Per the FAQ regarding Metamagic Spell level calculations:

FAQ wrote:
In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster. The advantages of the metamagic feat are spelled out in the Benefits section of the feat, and the increased spell slot level is a disadvantage.

This means that outside of the benefits of the Metamagic, you always use the worst outcomes plausible in terms of determining costs and check DCs, and other similar functions. (Of course, this doesn't mean you roll minimum damage...)

So, if I had a Maximize Rod with a Quicken Metamagic, this means that I would need a Greater Maximize Rod in order to use it with Quicken.

I'm also a little confused as to how Spell Perfection is supposed to interact with effects. It says that you can ignore the cost of applying a given Metamagic feat, so long as its addition does not increase the spell's level beyond 9th.

So if I had, say, an Intensified Empowered Maximized Fireball (9th level), this would mean that I could not use Spell Perfection to apply Quicken to the spell as well, correct?


That's correct. If you had the two traits that dropped the spell level for metamagic, and cast an Empowered (+0 to the spell level), Maximized (+0 Metamagic Rod), Intesified (+1) Fireball (total spell level of 4), you could use Spell Perfection to apply Quicken for free, as then the modified spell level (as far as spell perfection is concerned) would be 8.

That's how I understand it.

Though, I also thought that metamagic rods counted an intensified Fireball as a level 4 spell, meaning you couldn't use the lesser version.


Huh, I was sure I read a Dev stating the opposite. Guess I was wrong, though I'll check it out.


The rules in the book say that a metamagic'ed spell is always treated as a lower-level spell, except in the case of what spell level you use to cast the meta-magic spell.

However, I'm pretty sure that there was a dev post or something that said that, despite what the rules say, casting a spell in a higher-level spell slot, regardless of whether it's due to metamagic or something else, interact with other rules, such as Spell Perfection, in whatever way is worse for the caster.

If I'm not wrong about the existance of that post/faq/whatever, an Empowered Fireball is level 5 for the purpose of meta-magic rods.

Likewise, a fireball maximised by a metamagic rod would be level 6 for the purpose of Spell Perfection.


GM Runescarred Dragon wrote:

The rules in the book say that a metamagic'ed spell is always treated as a lower-level spell, except in the case of what spell level you use to cast the meta-magic spell.

However, I'm pretty sure that there was a dev post or something that said that, despite what the rules say, casting a spell in a higher-level spell slot, regardless of whether it's due to metamagic or something else, interact with other rules, such as Spell Perfection, in whatever way is worse for the caster.

If I'm not wrong about the existance of that post/faq/whatever, an Empowered Fireball is level 5 for the purpose of meta-magic rods.

Likewise, a fireball maximised by a metamagic rod would be level 6 for the purpose of Spell Perfection.

I was wrong, (and going of the old Blockbuster guide), but this has been answered inthis FAQ

Basically, it literally states that your spell counts as a higher level when applying metamagic and indeed always functions so that it is always disadvantageous for the caster.

Ohhhhh well, learn something new everyday :).

Obviously, Spell Level increase are still decreased by Wayang Spellhunter/Magical Lineage. So an Empowered Fireball with these two feats still counts as a level 3 spell.


Rambear wrote:
GM Runescarred Dragon wrote:

The rules in the book say that a metamagic'ed spell is always treated as a lower-level spell, except in the case of what spell level you use to cast the meta-magic spell.

However, I'm pretty sure that there was a dev post or something that said that, despite what the rules say, casting a spell in a higher-level spell slot, regardless of whether it's due to metamagic or something else, interact with other rules, such as Spell Perfection, in whatever way is worse for the caster.

If I'm not wrong about the existance of that post/faq/whatever, an Empowered Fireball is level 5 for the purpose of meta-magic rods.

Likewise, a fireball maximised by a metamagic rod would be level 6 for the purpose of Spell Perfection.

I was wrong, (and going of the old Blockbuster guide), but this has been answered inthis FAQ

Basically, it literally states that your spell counts as a higher level when applying metamagic and indeed always functions so that it is always disadvantageous for the caster.

Ohhhhh well, learn something new everyday :).

Obviously, Spell Level increase are still decreased by Wayang Spellhunter/Magical Lineage. So an Empowered Fireball with these two feats still counts as a level 3 spell.

Well, no.

You could construe a more disadvantageous reading - even though the traits reduce the spell level for the purpose of the slot, it doesn't say anything about anything else. Wayang Spellhunter is especially explicit in what it does - there's no room in the language to interpret it as reducing the level for all purposes.

Go look at the rules bit of it here.
So an Empowered Lineage Spellhunter Fireball counts as a 5th level spell. Maybe a 4th level spell depending on how you read Magical Lineage, but probably not.

Honestly, I think the whole 'disadvantageous' thing is stupid. Stacking rods with feats was kind of cool for blasting, but it never broke nothing.


Empowered Lineage Spellhunter Fireball is a 3rd level spell.


The first line of the FAQ is

"The spell counts as the level of the spell slot necessary to cast it"

Doesn't really get much clearer than that.

The advantageous/disadvantageous wording applies to spell DCs, level dependant spell-effects.

The FAQ does not speak of Lineage/Spellhunter, so therefore the general rule relating to required spellslot makes the most sense.


I think I'm in disagreement. The faq is talking about how it's disadvantageous in that it has a higher spell slot required to cast it.

If you can apply a metamagic feat WITHOUT increasing that spell slot required to cast it, I don't see how it would still count as having a higher spell level, in any way.

"In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster. The advantages of the metamagic feat are spelled out in the Benefits section of the feat, and the increased spell slot level is a disadvantage."

Taken out of context, I think this could possibly mean several things, but put together, it seems to just be saying: "Metamagic-ed spells have a bad side, in that they require a higher spell slot needed to cast them. But as far as DC's and all the crap revolving around higher spell levels, it's counted as it's original spell level".

EDITED TO ADD: Clarification: I meant to say, I think I'm in disagreement with GM Runescarred.


Mechanical Pear wrote:

I think I'm in disagreement. The faq is talking about how it's disadvantageous in that it has a higher spell slot required to cast it.

If you can apply a metamagic feat WITHOUT increasing that spell slot required to cast it, I don't see how it would still count as having a higher spell level, in any way.

"In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster. The advantages of the metamagic feat are spelled out in the Benefits section of the feat, and the increased spell slot level is a disadvantage."

Taken out of context, I think this could possibly mean several things, but put together, it seems to just be saying: "Metamagic-ed spells have a bad side, in that they require a higher spell slot needed to cast them. But as far as DC's and all the crap revolving around higher spell levels, it's counted as it's original spell level".

EDITED TO ADD: Clarification: I meant to say, I think I'm in disagreement with GM Runescarred.

Actually, you're right, and I was wrong.


GM Runescarred, if I weren't so madly in love with my girlfriend, I'd ask that you take her place for saying that.

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