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Oh yeah! And how's this for irony: any claim and attempt to force all to accept the concept that hellknights do, in fact, serve hell and Thrune is basically doing Thrune's own attempted propaganda and historical revision work for them.
By actively slandering said organization for aesthetic reasons (as opposed to individual Orders for moral reasons) one is actively purpatrating a lie and (intentionally or not) assisting the very infernal forces they reject the hellknights over!
(Of course this is a very metafictional argument, but because many people of good alignment will also be pearl-clutching aesthetically-focused individuals as well, this also applies in-world. Meta!)
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The Glorious Reclamation seems to have seen nothing wrong with kicking the crap out of the Order of the Godclaw... actions which, we should note, the definitely good and Paladin-friendly Church of Iomedae has not formally endorsed.
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Oh yeah! And how's this for irony: any claim and attempt to force all to accept the concept that hellknights do, in fact, serve hell and Thrune is basically doing Thrune's own attempted propaganda and historical revision work for them.
By actively slandering said organization for aesthetic reasons (as opposed to individual Orders for moral reasons) one is actively purpatrating a lie and (intentionally or not) assisting the very infernal forces they reject the hellknights over!
(Of course this is a very metafictional argument, but because many people of good alignment will also be pearl-clutching aesthetically-focused individuals as well, this also applies in-world. Meta!)
My biggest thing is that, going beyond things that true because official says it's true, that basing your organizational principles on infernal law and legal traditions (might makes right, laws are written with the intent to allow their drafters to exploit them, basis on fear and lies, etc.) is extremely foolish. The only advantage you might have is an increased ability to scare offenders into kowtowing to your demands. But that's probably more about adopting the aesthic imagery of hell rather than basing the foundation of your philosophy on hellish law.
The overriding philosophy of "only concerned with results" (as in, "the ends justify the means") is one that is usually at odds with the paladin code. So while a paladin could theoretically join their order, he'd almost most certainly be playing a game of keeping her fellows from pursuing evil to achieve order (and thus, dragging herself with them), thereby drawing attention from fighting the war against chaos. (And then you're undermining your whole philosophy of "results matter"). If we go with "everything is permitted in the name of the greater good" (or order, as the case may be), we should not be surprised that the abuses of power like in the Turn of the Torrent occur.
So yes, while a paladin MIGHT technically be able to join the Hellknights, I have trouble with it being plausible in a few notable circumstances.
a) the paladin is a delusional or at least extremely naive fool
b) the paladin hopes to clean up the corruption inside of the Hellknight organization from within the organization itself.
c)the character is a native Chelexian and wants to fight evil in an official capacity while remaining in a nation with an evil power structure.
d) the paladin has some buddies he really likes in the organiztion, and he wants to work with them.
All of the above has a lot of potential for leading the paladin astray over time.
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b) the paladin hopes to clean up the corruption inside of the Hellknight organization from within the organization itself.
Okay, I'm going to address this because this point bears clarification.
One problem with terms like this (while hypothetically accurate) is that all Hellknight Orders are not the same.
The Hellknights function as independent organizations ("Orders") each of which follow the same basic code, but are not part of a single over-arching organization.
he'd almost most certainly be playing a game of keeping her fellows from pursuing evil to achieve order (and thus, dragging herself with them), thereby drawing attention from fighting the war against chaos. (And then you're undermining your whole philosophy of "results matter").
... and this point is entirely errant. This is founded upon a host of assumptions that don't bear out within the setting or the various orders in their own history, over-all. You may wish to look here and just kind of go through all of the lawful good people throughout the hellknight organizations. Effectively, certain orders are, in fact, lawful good, as a whole, rather than being lawful evil or even lawful neutral.
Beyond that, again, you are buying into the aesthetic rather than the functional truth behind the organization.
My biggest thing is that, going beyond things that true because official says it's true, that basing your organizational principles on infernal law and legal traditions (might makes right, laws are written with the intent to allow their drafters to exploit them, basis on fear and lies, etc.) is extremely foolish.
The bolded part is fundamentally errant - not in its understanding of Hell, but in its understanding of the Hellknights.
This is exactly why there are so many problems that crop up.
People - in a meta sense - have bought into the aesthetic rather than accepting that the over-arching structure is, by nature, a lawful neutral structure.
It is not lawful evil.
"Nothing good can come from Hell." is a fine concept and all, but taking the not-evil parts and stripping out all the evil bits is an incredibly important function that the Hellknights followed when creating the Measure and Chain that many people seem to ignore because, you know, they're fooled by the aesthetic.
The only advantage you might have is an increased ability to scare offenders into kowtowing to your demands. But that's probably more about adopting the aesthic imagery of hell rather than basing the foundation of your philosophy on hellish law.
Sure: anyone using a devilish aesthetic and a mastery of a diabolically complex law code must be fundamentally evil, you know? ;D
Silliness aside, the two things are not mutually exclusive, nor does one automatically lead to a bad result.
The overriding philosophy of "only concerned with results" (as in, "the ends justify the means") is one that is usually at odds with the paladin code. So while a paladin could theoretically join their order, he'd almost most certainly be playing a game of keeping her fellows from pursuing evil to achieve order (and thus, dragging herself with them), thereby drawing attention from fighting the war against chaos. (And then you're undermining your whole philosophy of "results matter"). If we go with "everything is permitted in the name of the greater good" (or order, as the case may be), we should not be surprised that the abuses of power like in the Turn of the Torrent occur.
So yes, while a paladin MIGHT technically be able to join the Hellknights, I have trouble with it being plausible in a few notable circumstances.
a) the paladin is a delusional or at least extremely naive fool
b) the paladin hopes to clean up the corruption inside of the Hellknight organization from within the organization itself.
c)the character is a native Chelexian and wants to fight evil in an official capacity while remaining in a nation with an evil power structure.
d) the paladin has some buddies he really likes in the organiztion, and he wants to work with them.All of the above has a lot of potential for leading the paladin astray over time.
Here's something else that can lead a paladin astray over time:
a) killing people and taking their stuffb) violating mandates of legitimate authority
c) having a low wisdom score
d) generally presupposing certain creatures are evil based on their racial source
e) failing a will save
... so maybe a paladin shouldn't go adventuring? I mean - that's a way of life that constantly put said paladin into those situations, like, all the time, you know?
The main problem with these arguments (aside from obvious biased slant in term-choice) is that they misunderstand "based on" for "the same" - looking at U.S. laws, for example, much of our law code is based on, say, the Byzantine law code, but no one would ever confuse the two, despite the the fact that the former is incredibly important in the process of informing our own. We are not and could never be confused for the Byzantium empire, even only by law, even barring all technological progress. The systems are entirely different, despite one being based in the other.
This is a fundamental thing people seem to be missing.
"Based on" is not "the same as" - in fact, in the Hellknights' case, it's explicitly different from said code.
The main point that is a good one against paladins, is the concept of "the end justifies the means" which is a very dark part of the Hellknight concept.
However, again, let me point back to something oft ignored: there is a "greater evil" in Cheliax, called "the death of everyone and everything via Civil War" and those who are part of the Hellknights definitively remember this thing and have it as a constant, looming specter over everything they do.
Beyond that, there are many cases in which paladins can, in fact, do more good from within the system than by declaring open rebellion and acting overtly against it.
Again:
- There are specific orders that take a good perspective on a lawful neutral code.
- There are specific orders that take a neutral perspective on a lawful neutral code
- There are specific orders that take an evil perspective on a lawful neutral code
When a paladin wishes to navigate joining the Hellknights they need to avoid the last, carefully look into the wisdom of the next-to-it, and feel confident about their choice in the first - at least as confident as being a wandering killer-for-hire who steals things off of the dead monsters they destroy along their way (which, incidentally, is also not an evil profession).
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Plus Hellknights must kill a devil to become full initiates.
Pretty sure that means that they are NOT alligned with hell.
"Boss, I spent fifty daggum years getting those kooks to sign our 'deal of a lifetime' and you spend a lot of resources and ur int their lemures into those powerful guys, just so's we can have that one guy kill 'em dead as part of a lot con to hopefully make us look a little better? Couldn't we do that with good PR and glibness? This one seems... expensive."
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The Hellknights function as independent organizations ("Orders") each of which follow the same basic code, but are not part of a single over-arching organization.
I understand this, but I've not seen any chapter that have a good take on the neutral code. Could you give me a source example on this?
Because otherwise, "results matter" will put in a mix of good, evil, and neutral into any sect without a definitively evil mission. And therefore, a paladin will come into contact with individual evil or darkly neutral comrades that they will have to compensate for and find ways within the system to go around. Hence the distraction.
The bolded part is fundamentally errant - not in its understanding of Hell, but in its understanding of the Hellknights.This is exactly why there are so many problems that crop up.
People - in a meta sense - have bought into the aesthetic rather than accepting that the over-arching structure is, by nature, a lawful neutral structure.
It is not lawful evil.
"Nothing good can come from Hell." is a fine concept and all, but taking the not-evil parts and stripping out all the evil bits is an incredibly important function that the Hellknights followed when creating the Measure and Chain that many people seem to ignore because, you know, they're fooled by the aesthetic.
Actually, I am not making that general argument. I know the difference between "based on" and "the same". I'm making a very specific argument about what is at the core of infernal legal tenets If they were just buying the aesthetic (as in, appearance and perhaps battle tactics) I would say no problem.
However, they study the legal tenets of hell. And there's not much left of infernal law when you strip away its abuses. It is a system fundamentally based on exploitation of the law. The enforcement of the law only matters as long as it benefits those in power. The talk of the organization of hell's armies being superior to all others I find nonsensical, in that it's true only because the source material says it's true.
If somebody can provide me with good reasoning as to why hell's armies are worth imitating, what is worthy in infernal law of keeping once the exploitation factor is taken out, why law corrupted by evil is better at doing law than law itself, and how principles of hell can effectively be translated into human realms, then I will relinquish my position that paladin hellknights lend themselves more towards being misled (as turning into the pawns of evil, not necessarily turning evil themselves) than to fulfilling their goals.
However, again, let me point back to something oft ignored: there is a "greater evil" in Cheliax, called "the death of everyone and everything via Civil War" and those who are part of the Hellknights definitively remember this thing and have it as a constant, looming specter over everything they do.
This justification is tricky because the the regime in question lends itself to revolution or civil war (as human regimes based primarily on fear and tyranny tend to be.) As best, you're putting the status quo on life support in the hope the regime can change through legal means. It is a valid character option, make no mistake, but it's a very precarious one. (Which is my main point, being a paladin in the Hellknights is one that complicates being a paladin because it gives you another figurative master to please.
My point is that a paladin can't be involved in hellknights or that the hellknights are inherently lawful evil, rather, their methods and allegiances are flawed. And the conflicts that trickle down to a hellknight paladin will very likely cause conflict with a paladin's other paladin-type goals. So I'm saying, if you're a paladin and want to be a hellknight, by all means, go ahead. However, do so knowing the potential consequences and do so at your own (increased) risk.
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In my opinion, the Hellknights are basically the incarnation of the saying "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions." Well, certain definitions of it at least.. . . Which, of course, once again brings up the questino of where the road that is paved with bad intentions leads to . . . .
That road also leads to Hell. There has never been a shortage of bad intentions.
The Hellknights function as independent organizations ("Orders") each of which follow the same basic code, but are not part of a single over-arching organization.
I understand this, but I've not seen any chapter that have a good take on the neutral code. Could you give me a source example on this?
Because otherwise, "results matter" will put in a mix of good, evil, and neutral into any sect without a definitively evil mission. And therefore, a paladin will come into contact with individual evil or darkly neutral comrades that they will have to compensate for and find ways within the system to go around. Hence the distraction.
Have you seen any of the links I've made? Check out pathfinderwiki.com, look at the makeup and alignments of the different members of the orders.
There are several that are demonstrably run by either a preponderance or key lawful good individuals. Curiously, these tend to have issue with those most aligned with lawful evil within the Hellknights. This isn't guesswork: this is canon. These groups do not work with each other, but rarely work at cross purposes for the sake of getting their jobs done.
... hence the broader collective of the organization looking like your prediction, while individual orders failing to do so.
The bolded part is fundamentally errant - not in its understanding of Hell, but in its understanding of the Hellknights.This is exactly why there are so many problems that crop up.
People - in a meta sense - have bought into the aesthetic rather than accepting that the over-arching structure is, by nature, a lawful neutral structure.
It is not lawful evil.
"Nothing good can come from Hell." is a fine concept and all, but taking the not-evil parts and stripping out all the evil bits is an incredibly important function that the Hellknights followed when creating the Measure and Chain that many people seem to ignore because, you know, they're fooled by the aesthetic.
Actually, I am not making that general argument. I know the difference between "based on" and "the same". I'm making a very specific argument about what is at the core of infernal legal tenets If they were just buying the aesthetic (as in, appearance and perhaps battle tactics) I would say no problem.
However, they study the legal tenets of hell. And there's not much left of infernal law when you strip away its abuses. It is a system fundamentally based on exploitation of the law. The enforcement of the law only matters as long as it benefits those in power. The talk of the organization of hell's armies being superior to all others I find nonsensical,...
... but again, you're making an argument that is demonstrably, self-evidently untrue.
IF your argument was true "there is nothing that could be modeled after the laws of hell that does not force abuses" than it would be impossible to have neutral or good hellknights. Thus, aspects must, by self-evidence, be that there are worthy aspects.
In the car, gotta go, but I'll try to get to other points later. You've some good points and ideas, though!
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and here i always thought the road to hell was paved with candy
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Remember that Paladins don't have to be provided with a position within the Hellknights that is safe from induction of a fall. The fall just has to take long enough that at any given time, one can find several Paladins within some of the Hellknight orders -- they may be condemned to fall eventually if they live long enough within the Hellknight orders, but the process is on average slow enough that one can find a sprinkling of Paladins among them.
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It's demonstrably canon that paladins are common among the Hellknights, and I'm sure we'll see the upcoming Hellknight Companion release go into that even further.
As to what is worthy of emulating the armies of Hell?
Strict military, ruthless precision, clear command structure, brilliant battlefield tactics, frequent military engagements to test those tactics, shock & awe, intimidation, fearsome reputation - a reputation which can win battles without lifting a sword.
And don't forget, canonically, even Iomedae consults with Asmodeus.
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^It might prove to be not such a good idea for her to consult with Asmodeus in the long run -- I am sure he is working on corrupting other deities, although even if successful this would be expected to take a very long time (although it might become apparent catastrophically).
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gray paladin (can be one step from lawful good and smite any foe, but the lack of absolute conviction makes many abilities less absolute)
I think we have now the answer how can paladins work with hellknights.
gray paladin (can be one step from lawful good and smite any foe, but the lack of absolute conviction makes many abilities less absolute)I think we have now the answer how can paladins work with hellknights.
Do... do you have a link to this blog?! Whaaaaat-?
Contributor
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Do... do you have a link to this blog?! Whaaaaat-?gray paladin (can be one step from lawful good and smite any foe, but the lack of absolute conviction makes many abilities less absolute)I think we have now the answer how can paladins work with hellknights.
This one? ^_^
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Oh, and as to something "worthy of emulation" from Hellish laws and military structure: corruption, betrayal, and weakness are a fundamental part of the presumption of Hell's laws and structures.
Frankly, it's the most "human" (or, non-specifically, the most "mortal"). Heaven presupposes beings of benevolence and honor. Axis presupposes infallably lawful beings of perfect order. Hell presumes untrustworthy backstabbing monsters.
The hellknights, though seeking to bring about order for the greater good, are, over-all, fundamentally pessimistic in their view of mortals' normal conviction and devotion (due to how they were founded - by the failure of those supposedly most in-tune with the "divine" rule of a lawful neutral god). One (but not the only) reason the hellknights exist is because they believe that many (if not most) mortals lack the will to properly govern themselves without falling into anarchy.
Thus the hellknights are there to prevent exactly that - to keep everyone on track and to keep civilization marching forward and functioning, keeping in mind that people are treacherous and untrustworthy as individuals who allow overweening pride, ambition, and other such failures to interfere with better judgement and thus causing usurpation and detraction from the mission.
Hell... addresses that. It is the only code, in fact, that addresses how to have the over-arching goal managed even when dealing with fundamentally corrupt creatures. It has to in order to survive. It's fundamentally about how to maintain order within its own ranks. It looks at the absolute worst of those devoted to a hierarchal structure and prepares for exactly that: the worst.
The hellknights emulate that readiness and understanding: they know how to deal with absolute scum and turn them into devout servitors of the law. The difference is in the goals. Hell and its laws want to corrupt everything and become ever-more-powerful on a personal level. The hellknights want a world order in which all are govorned by their absolute personal adherence to the absolute order represented by the measure and chain.
"We start with the worst, and work our way up." in other words. This functions with military, with legal codes, and with others as well. The primary difference (in theory) is that even the absolute authoritarian powers that are lichtors do not waver from their code and refuse: they have both the other Orders and their own subordinates to keep them in check and follow the Measure and Chain. Meanwhile, everyone else follows the lichtor.
This is a very human and very relatable reasoning behind taking Hell's laws as a basis for anything (without replicating them): "Here are the guiding principals, here are the reasons for them, now make something that works with mortals for a better purpose than they are currently used for." type of situation.
There are other reasons as well, but this was one I wanted to address, and didn't have the time to do so before this thread disappeared and my ADD kicked in and forgot. :)
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This one? ^_^Do... do you have a link to this blog?! Whaaaaat-?gray paladin (can be one step from lawful good and smite any foe, but the lack of absolute conviction makes many abilities less absolute)I think we have now the answer how can paladins work with hellknights.
Thank you!
And yes, (sigh) they are bringing back the Grey Guard in Pathfinder. At least they had the nerve to nerf the powers for their paladin knock-off, unlike that travesty of a PrC.
==Aelryinth
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James Jacobs on paladins of Asmodeus.
James Jacobs on paladins and Milani.
James Jacobs on Hellknight paladins.
Hopefully some info from the Creative Director helps. It's his job to decide what is and isn't canon, after all.
That said, if your version of Golarion is more fun for you, that's good. The point is to have fun, after all. ^_^
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James Jacobs on paladins of Asmodeus.
James Jacobs on paladins and Milani.
James Jacobs on Hellknight paladins.
Hopefully some info from the Creative Director helps. It's his job to decide what is and isn't canon, after all.
That said, if your version of Golarion is more fun for you, that's good. The point is to have fun, after all. ^_^
Awesome! Thank you!
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The way I see it, it is as Cole has said, its all about who is GM and their preference for that sort of thing.
Aelryinth seems to have a very strict code about never working with evil so it is obvious how his paladins would play as a character or a GM. I, on the other hand, play as Cole and others suggest, where Paladins work with evil so long as its Lawful for the greater good, and so long as those people are in check.
I don't know how to do the spoiler thing so I'm going to be very vague, but in Wrath of the Righteous, it's implied heavily by a God that sometimes Evil must be spared and worked with to drive back must worse evil. I follow what that campaign suggested cause it makes sense that demons and followers of Rovagug are far more pressing enemies than Devils. Because in terms of LE, redemption should be a paladin's hope, unlike CE which is corrupted and twisted beyond most hope. Devils are evil and wicked, no doubt, but against the worst of all evils, NE and CE, the saying "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" should kick in, and a Paladin must do what he must to save the innocent first and foremost.
But again, this is my thoughts on it and it'll differ from others, and thats everyones right to see the code how they wish. After all, the rules are more of a guideline for us to follow, not to be strictly be adheered to. Thats what imagination is for.
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Aelryinth seems to have a very strict code about never working with evil so it is obvious how his paladins would play as a character or a GM. I, on the other hand, play as Cole and others suggest, where Paladins work with evil so long as its Lawful for the greater good, and so long as those people are in check.
I don't know how to do the spoiler thing so I'm going to be very vague, but in Wrath of the Righteous, it's implied heavily by a God that sometimes Evil must be spared and worked with to drive back must worse evil. I follow what that campaign suggested cause it makes sense that demons and followers of Rovagug are far more pressing enemies than Devils. Because in terms of LE, redemption should be a paladin's hope, unlike CE which is corrupted and twisted beyond most hope. Devils are evil and wicked, no doubt, but against the worst of all evils, NE and CE, the saying "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" should kick in, and a Paladin must do what he must to save the innocent first and foremost.
You do spoilers like you do all the other formatting. Use [] keys and put [ spoiler ] and [ /spoiler ] at the front and back respectively (remove the empty spaces).
And I sigh again.
I repeatedly pointed out that a paladin is allowed to work with Evil under exceptional, short term circumstances.
I have no issue with that. Greater Evil, yada yada yada. Even Iomadae will work with Asmodeus under exceptional circumstances.
This argument has two major problems re: paladins being in the Hellknights.
1) The Hellknights are part of a greater evil...two, in fact. They are de facto supporters of the Tyranny that is the Chelian government, and they are dupes of Hell on multiple levels, both willing and clueless.
Neither is permissible to be followed under the paladin code.
Furthermore, the whole central basis of the Hellknight code starts with 'Chaos is Evil.' That is very, very clearly NOT part of the paladin code, and concerning CG, a clear violation of it.
2) Being a Hellknight is NOT an exceptional circumstance. It is a completely mundane, every day, 'standard procedure'. It is an ongoing alliance/subservience to Evil, there is nothing 'exceptional' about it.
While a Paladin may certainly ALLY with an Evil Hellknight if they are in pursuit of the same noble goal and it concerns a greater Evil, that will be short term, temporary, and severed as soon as can be honorably done. If the paladin has the same noble goals as a Hellknight Order, he could ally with LN and LG members of it on an ongoing basis. Undoubtedly, he will be continually trying to lure such worthy Hellknights out from under the auspices of Hell by the example he sets.
However, he will find some other, long-term organizational commitment he can adhere to if he needs support, rather then cloaking himself in the armor, creed, beliefs and reputation of a Knighthood derived from Hell.
He will find a proper LG alternative. NOT a LN(E) Knighthood. And the fact some Orders are better then others simply isn't going to matter. The average person doesn't care about a Hellknight's Order, and the reputation and deeds of one carry to all..that's why you join a Knightly Order in the first place. By name, reputation, creed, and deeds, the Hellknight Orders are something for a paladin to stay away from, and a paladin would seek other venues and LG allies, NOT LN and especially LE allies.
In Cheliax, that alternative would be the LG churches.
A paladin who joins the Hellknights is either deluded or just plain an idiot, and basically living in defiance of the paladin code of conduct, and heading for a fall.
I have no problems with the image of a Hellknight who thinks he's as worthy as a paladin because of what his Order stands for. He's a deluded dupe of Hell, however deeply or lightly, let him think what he wants.
Including paladins in that imagery just does not fit, unless you consider the paladin a total fool. And I don't.
Seriously, most paladins would rather die to submit to Evil. As a very minor point, why would they ever even strap on armor designed in Hell, and put Hell in front of their names? That IS submission.
just, ugh.
==Aelryinth