Spell Focus & SLA's


Rules Questions


If a creature has class levels and takes the feat Spell Focus, would they gain the bonus on any SLA's they might have which qualified? For instance, if a Succubus had levels in Wizard and took Spell Focus: Enchantment, would their at will Charm Monster or their 1/day Dominate Person increase in DC as a result?

Silver Crusade

This Post Says Yes.


Bryce, that post is woefully outdated.

The answer is yes, if bestiary entries can be trusted.

Leanan Sidhe is the clearest example. They have Spell Focus (enchantment) but no actual spells; the bonus applies to their several enchantment spell-like abilities.

This is also seen in other creatures, such as Dark Callers and Adult Brass Dragons.
Here and here are two previous threads discussing the issue, here is my take on the matter, and here is Mark Seifter's.

Silver Crusade

Avoron wrote:

Bryce, that post is woefully outdated.

The answer is yes, if bestiary entries can be trusted.

Leanan Sidhe is the clearest example. They have Spell Focus (enchantment) but no actual spells; the bonus applies to their several enchantment spell-like abilities.

This is also seen in other creatures, such as Dark Callers and Adult Brass Dragons.
Here and here are two previous threads discussing the issue, here is my take on the matter, and here is Mark Seifter's.

Despite being dated its still accurate. I knew of the Monster Entry but forgot the Monster. So I just Googled. Sorry I kinda Ninja'd you with something that says the same thing as your reply. As Far as Im Concerned Its done. And we can use Spell Focus for SLA, Despite what that means for Kineticist Blasts.


Looks like there's a consensus. Thank you, gentlemen.


Bryce Kineman wrote:
Avoron wrote:

Bryce, that post is woefully outdated.

The answer is yes, if bestiary entries can be trusted.

Leanan Sidhe is the clearest example. They have Spell Focus (enchantment) but no actual spells; the bonus applies to their several enchantment spell-like abilities.

This is also seen in other creatures, such as Dark Callers and Adult Brass Dragons.
Here and here are two previous threads discussing the issue, here is my take on the matter, and here is Mark Seifter's.

Despite being dated its still accurate. I knew of the Monster Entry but forgot the Monster. So I just Googled. Sorry I kinda Ninja'd you with something that says the same thing as your reply. As Far as Im Concerned Its done. And we can use Spell Focus for SLA, Despite what that means for Kineticist Blasts.

But which school are elemental blasts?

Grand Lodge

take elemental focus :)


Kineticist are better off with ability focus (kinetic blast) anyways. +2 instead of a +1.

Silver Crusade

Texas Snyper wrote:
Kineticist are better off with ability focus (kinetic blast) anyways. +2 instead of a +1.

Thats Cool for Home games, but not for PFS.


Only recently started PF, why is that?


Because players can't take Bestiary feats unless a specific resource cites them, such as a Ranger with the Natural Weapons combat style.


Texas Snyper wrote:
Only recently started PF, why is that?

Society play doesn't allow everything from the books. Some things are banned.

Silver Crusade

Texas Snyper wrote:
Only recently started PF, why is that?

For more info refer to the Additional Resources and The Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide on what you can and cannot do.


Bryce Kineman wrote:
Avoron wrote:

Bryce, that post is woefully outdated.

The answer is yes, if bestiary entries can be trusted.

Leanan Sidhe is the clearest example. They have Spell Focus (enchantment) but no actual spells; the bonus applies to their several enchantment spell-like abilities.

This is also seen in other creatures, such as Dark Callers and Adult Brass Dragons.
Here and here are two previous threads discussing the issue, here is my take on the matter, and here is Mark Seifter's.

Despite being dated its still accurate. I knew of the Monster Entry but forgot the Monster. So I just Googled. Sorry I kinda Ninja'd you with something that says the same thing as your reply. As Far as Im Concerned Its done. And we can use Spell Focus for SLA, Despite what that means for Kineticist Blasts.

Are we looking at the same post?

The post you linked is 80% just a copied and pasted quote from a past printing of the Core Rulebook.
The actual assertion being made has no particular authority behind it and is about as inaccurate as it is possible to be without causing physical pain. Metamagic feats definitely do not work with spell-like abilities under any circumstances, as was been explicitly stated in this FAQ more than four years ago. You need something like Empower Spell-Like Ability or Quicken Spell-Like Ability.

Spell Focus works with spell-like abilities, but not with kineticist elemental blasts, because they do not have schools unless a GM decides to houserule otherwise.

Elemental Focus and Greater Elemental Focus are the way to go with kineticist blasts. Ability Focus might also work, but I would beware of table variation, because the wording implies that it might not function with spell-like abilities, as discussed here.

Ability Focus wrote:
Benefit: Choose one of the creature's special attacks. Add +2 to the DC for all saving throws against the special attack on which the creature focuses.
Adult Brass Dragon wrote:

Special Attacks breath weapon (80-ft. line, DC 22, 12d4 fire), desert wind, sleep breath

Spell-Like Abilities (CL 14th)
At will—endure elements, speak with animals, suggestion (DC 18)

Spell-like abilities seem to be a distinct category separate from special attacks, so Ability Focus may not work for them. Also, I've never seen any creature take it for one.

I'd be sure to check with my GM before using this in game.

Silver Crusade Contributor

At least two creatures in Bestiary 4 - Cthulhu and the immortal ichor - have Ability Focus for a specific spell-like ability.

Designer

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Avoron wrote:
Bryce Kineman wrote:
Avoron wrote:

Bryce, that post is woefully outdated.

The answer is yes, if bestiary entries can be trusted.

Leanan Sidhe is the clearest example. They have Spell Focus (enchantment) but no actual spells; the bonus applies to their several enchantment spell-like abilities.

This is also seen in other creatures, such as Dark Callers and Adult Brass Dragons.
Here and here are two previous threads discussing the issue, here is my take on the matter, and here is Mark Seifter's.

Despite being dated its still accurate. I knew of the Monster Entry but forgot the Monster. So I just Googled. Sorry I kinda Ninja'd you with something that says the same thing as your reply. As Far as Im Concerned Its done. And we can use Spell Focus for SLA, Despite what that means for Kineticist Blasts.

Are we looking at the same post?

The post you linked is 80% just a copied and pasted quote from a past printing of the Core Rulebook.
The actual assertion being made has no particular authority behind it and is about as inaccurate as it is possible to be without causing physical pain. Metamagic feats definitely do not work with spell-like abilities under any circumstances, as was been explicitly stated in this FAQ more than four years ago. You need something like Empower Spell-Like Ability or Quicken Spell-Like Ability.

Spell Focus...

Even if a GM allowed a PC to take a monster feat (the default is usually not as far as I've seen in most games I came across before and after working here), it's for a racial creature special ability, so I don't see why it would apply to a class ability. Not that Ability Focus is a great feat to have in the game overall (it's either a patch to fix a too-low DC or a way to make custom-advanced monsters bust out of their expected DC range), but it would be particularly busted to add +2 DC to hex, kinetic blast, etc. That said, if the GM decides they want to go for it in both cases, they've made their choice (and probably have expectations of higher saves to boot), so presumably all PCs and NPCs of affected classes are going to take it in those games.

Silver Crusade

Avoron wrote:
Bryce Kineman wrote:
Avoron wrote:

Bryce, that post is woefully outdated.

The answer is yes, if bestiary entries can be trusted.

Leanan Sidhe is the clearest example. They have Spell Focus (enchantment) but no actual spells; the bonus applies to their several enchantment spell-like abilities.

This is also seen in other creatures, such as Dark Callers and Adult Brass Dragons.
Here and here are two previous threads discussing the issue, here is my take on the matter, and here is Mark Seifter's.

Despite being dated its still accurate. I knew of the Monster Entry but forgot the Monster. So I just Googled. Sorry I kinda Ninja'd you with something that says the same thing as your reply. As Far as Im Concerned Its done. And we can use Spell Focus for SLA, Despite what that means for Kineticist Blasts.

Are we looking at the same post?

The post you linked is 80% just a copied and pasted quote from a past printing of the Core Rulebook.
The actual assertion being made has no particular authority behind it and is about as inaccurate as it is possible to be without causing physical pain. Metamagic feats definitely do not work with spell-like abilities under any circumstances, as was been explicitly stated in this FAQ more than four years ago. You need something like Empower Spell-Like Ability or Quicken Spell-Like Ability.

Spell Focus...

Sorry, should have been more specific. I was trying to Infer the ability to Apply Elemental Focus. As it Logically doesnt make sense for Spell Focus to work with Kineticist blast.

Also like i Said, I was aware of the monster entry Leanan Sidhe. But decided to just go with the first thing I found on a simple and quick google post since it had the same answer as yours. I just forgot the Monsters name.
Though for things like SLA's that simulate a spell. I can agree that needs more clarification. I Personally dont like Kineticists getting Elemental Focus for their blast.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
Even if a GM allowed a PC to take a monster feat (the default is usually not as far as I've seen in most games I came across before and after working here), it's for a racial creature special ability, so I don't see why it would apply to a class ability. Not that Ability Focus is a great feat to have in the game overall (it's either a patch to fix a too-low DC or a way to make custom-advanced monsters bust out of their expected DC range), but it would be particularly busted to add +2 DC to hex, kinetic blast, etc. That said, if the GM decides they want to go for it in both cases, they've made their choice (and probably have expectations of higher saves to boot), so presumably all PCs and NPCs of affected classes are going to take it in those games.

I find this to be very different from my experience. The rules for monsters feats say:

"Most of the following feats apply specifically to monsters, although some player characters might qualify for them (particularly Craft Construct)."

Clearly, there are feats in the Bestiary available for PCs provided that they qualify, even though they are usually intended for monsters. Some feats feats like Craft Construct being designed more for PCs then monsters despite being in the Bestiary. I have never seen feats from the Bestiary denied to players that qualify for them in my experience.

So then the question becomes what are the requirements for the Ability Focus feat?

"Prerequisite: Special attack."

So then the issue is whether or not a Witch meets this prerequisite. By taking a look at a Witch NPC stat block entry we can find that Hexes are listed under Special Attacks:

"Special Attacks hexes (blight [50 feet], evil eye [–2, 7 rounds])"

Therefore, a GM who allows a Witch to take Ability Focus for one of their hexes hasn't really made any choice or decision aside from choosing to use the rules.

Is Ability Focus balanced as a +2? I would argue that it is when compared to the similar Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus feats. Naturally, it rolls both feats into a single feat which is big plus. But it has a large con in that only does so for one particular ability, while Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus function for all spells of a particular school. If sheer strength is important Ability Focus is great. If versatility is important, Spell Focus wins out.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

My experiences are similar to Anzyr's. Once Paizo started making races with claws, Natural Armor and wings, no one blinks if one of them wanted to take hover, Improved Natural Attack or Improved Natural Attack. In the multitude of varied live and online DM's I've played with, I haven't had one say anything about monsters feats. They've always been quietly accepted without any one saying word.

The only people I've met that that question monster feats for PC's are posters on this site and usually in reference to PFS.

Dark Archive

Just ban the class from PFS save people's time.İT is a failed project anyway.

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