Sooooooo why can't I be divine caster with out a deity in PFS again?


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Scarab Sages

I think a lot of people would find domains and favored weapon useful to have on the list as well. Even without them, it's useful though. Thanks for keeping the list up to date.

3/5

nosig wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
FLite wrote:

[

Interesting question. Anyone got time on their hands want to run the permutations and find out what domain pairs *cant* be done?
I recently discovered that no published Golarion deity gives both Fire and Rune.
I've been looking for Travel and Trickery...

Sun Wukong from Tian Xia has both Travel and Trickery.

So does Folca, but she isn't PFS legal.

Dark Archive 5/5 5/5

I don't think Artifice and Rune exist together either.

Grand Lodge 5/5

jon dehning wrote:
I don't think Artifice and Rune exist together either.

Stygidvod - Daemon Harbinger

Bifrons - Infernal Duke

(neither are legal though)

Scarab Sages

jon dehning wrote:
I don't think Artifice and Rune exist together either.

Stygidvod and Bifrons both have them, but I don't think either of them are legal.

Dark Archive 5/5 5/5

Imbicatus wrote:
jon dehning wrote:
I don't think Artifice and Rune exist together either.
Stygidvod and Bifrons both have them, but I don't think either of them are legal.

I guess the legality of the deity is what is apropos for me. If I can't use them in PFS then it is not something I look at.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Imbicatus wrote:
I think a lot of people would find domains and favored weapon useful to have on the list as well. Even without them, it's useful though. Thanks for keeping the list up to date.

My Idea behind the list was for players who have the source/info and want to see if a god is legal they find interesting, not to use the list to decide who to pick.

3/5 5/5

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There's always the separatist cleric if you simply must have a particular domain.

Scarab Sages 5/5

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
There's always the separatist cleric if you simply must have a particular domain.

Like Travel and Trickery together... that's what I did.

Buba Casanunda, separatist cleric of Nivi Rombudazzle

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
FLite wrote:
After all, what is a virgin but someone saving themselves for love?

Historically speaking, a virgin was either a woman dedicated to temple service, or a girl being kept by her father for an economically or politically advantageous marriage.

Romantic love had little to do with the concept.

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

LazarX wrote:
FLite wrote:
After all, what is a virgin but someone saving themselves for love?

Historically speaking, a virgin was either a woman dedicated to temple service, or a girl being kept by her father for an economically or politically advantageous marriage.

Romantic love had little to do with the concept.

Yeah, but golarian is cinematic fantasy, not historical.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
FLite wrote:
LazarX wrote:
FLite wrote:
After all, what is a virgin but someone saving themselves for love?

Historically speaking, a virgin was either a woman dedicated to temple service, or a girl being kept by her father for an economically or politically advantageous marriage.

Romantic love had little to do with the concept.

Yeah, but golarian is cinematic fantasy, not historical.

What I've spoken of is frequently the background for many a cinematic fantasy.... the rescue of someone from an upcoming loveless marriage.

Silver Crusade 3/5

nosig wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
FLite wrote:

[

Interesting question. Anyone got time on their hands want to run the permutations and find out what domain pairs *cant* be done?
I recently discovered that no published Golarion deity gives both Fire and Rune.
I've been looking for Travel and Trickery...

Here you go. Someone else mentioned it a little earlier, but didn't provide a link, and it seemed you missed it.

Sczarni 4/5

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Andrew Christian wrote:
Keep in mind, Aroden and Razmir are not one of the PFS allowed deities. So by default you cannot worship them.

So, at your table, I guess my Priest of Razmir cannot worship Razmir?

Is he, perforce, an atheist or an agnostic?

You leave me with a headache, as this PC is, legally for PFS, a Razmiran Priest. Razmir is his god, yes?

Quote:
With a skilled synthesis of glib lies and powerful arcane magic, Razmir sits atop a pyramid of faith behind an impassive mask—only the highest-ranking members of his cult know the truth, that their “god” is in fact a mortal man fast approaching the end of his life.

I would suspect, since Razmir himself is 19th level, that "highest-ranking" would probably be higher level than regular PFS scenarios go...


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Andrew Christian wrote:
Keep in mind, Aroden and Razmirare not one of the PFS allowed deities. So by default toucannot worship them.

Does that mean I can worship another god and then also take Aroden's and Razmir's traits? Because it isn't 'worship'? I could technically be a cleric of a totally different god and also be a razmiran priest or follower at the same time?

This seems somewhat counterintuitive to me.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Well I can tell you this for certain, You can not be a Cleric, inquisitor, paladin, cavaliers of the order of the star, and samurai of the order of the star and have Razmir, Aroden or any other god not authorized.

Silver Crusade Venture-Agent, Florida–Altamonte Springs

In PFS and many Golarion based games the only way to play a Razmiran Priest is to make them a sorcerer/charlatan.

Grand Lodge 5/5

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Aroden and Razmir present a special case that needs a third word besides worship and venerate.

They can't provide access to domains and such so you can't worship them.

However, they can provide mechanical benefits as shown above so venerate isn't strong enough.

They fall somewhere in between. Also, no I don't think you should be able to derive mechanical benefit from them and worship a different god (though I guess YMMV).

Silver Crusade 4/5

Andrew Christian wrote:

Because Oracles, by the very definition of what the class is, doesn't get their power from a single divine source of worship.

They actually do get their power from a single divine source. They just don't usually know who that source is.

Blackbot wrote:
I think Beckett's point was that theoretically an oracle could run around claming to be a cleric of Aroden.

I actually know someone with a PC like that.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Joe Ducey wrote:

Aroden and Razmir present a special case that needs a third word besides worship and venerate.

They can't provide access to domains and such so you can't worship them.

However, they can provide mechanical benefits as shown above so venerate isn't strong enough.

They fall somewhere in between. Also, no I don't think you should be able to derive mechanical benefit from them and worship a different god (though I guess YMMV).

Is there something in the rules that I missed that says you can only worship beings that can provide access to Domains?

Are there any deities, legal for PFS or not, who only provide access to Inquisitions rather than Domains?

2/5

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Oh, there's a way to play a Razmiran Priest as a Cleric in PFS, and I was HIGHLY considering it

PFS Legal Razmiran:
It's a giant lie.
I'm actually a priest of The Reaper of Reputation.
However, in line with my god's tenantry, I keep this a secret.
Knowing that little is known of Razmiran's living god, I disguise myself as one of his clergy and make it up as I go along.

Yes, I am a cleric.
I cast cures and inflicts, I channel energy.
I get all my powers from my god.
It's just not the one you think it is...

3/5 5/5

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kinevon wrote:
Joe Ducey wrote:

Aroden and Razmir present a special case that needs a third word besides worship and venerate.

They can't provide access to domains and such so you can't worship them.

However, they can provide mechanical benefits as shown above so venerate isn't strong enough.

They fall somewhere in between. Also, no I don't think you should be able to derive mechanical benefit from them and worship a different god (though I guess YMMV).

Is there something in the rules that I missed that says you can only worship beings that can provide access to Domains?

Are there any deities, legal for PFS or not, who only provide access to Inquisitions rather than Domains?

No. Part of the definition of a god (or demigod) in pathfinder is 'a being which grants spells and has 5 (or 4) domains'.

Silver Crusade 5/5

Joe Ducey wrote:

Aroden and Razmir present a special case that needs a third word besides worship and venerate.

They can't provide access to domains and such so you can't worship them.

However, they can provide mechanical benefits as shown above so venerate isn't strong enough.

They fall somewhere in between. Also, no I don't think you should be able to derive mechanical benefit from them and worship a different god (though I guess YMMV).

...Worshinerate?

Silver Crusade Venture-Agent, Florida–Altamonte Springs

Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:

Oh, there's a way to play a Razmiran Priest as a Cleric in PFS, and I was HIGHLY considering it

** spoiler omitted **

Homegame Atheist:
During Beta, I once had a player demand to play an atheist cleric because Pathfinder allows it. At the time I said "Sure" not letting him know that he was really gaining his power from a devil that matched his domains. Before it got to the big reveal was asked to leave the group.
2/5 *

I'm pretty sure they have been pretty clear that Aroden is dead and hence not granting spells, and Razmir is a fake with out an ounce of divinity in him.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:

Oh, there's a way to play a Razmiran Priest as a Cleric in PFS, and I was HIGHLY considering it

** spoiler omitted **

Not PFS legal because you can't worship an evil god.

4/5 ****

LazarX wrote:
Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:

Oh, there's a way to play a Razmiran Priest as a Cleric in PFS, and I was HIGHLY considering it

** spoiler omitted **
Not PFS legal because you can't worship an evil god.

Evil gods are perfectly legal to worship.

3/5 5/5

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That turns out not to be the case, LazarX. Evil characters are not allowed, but neutral worshippers of evil gods are. There are plenty of Asmodean LN types.

2/5 *

Razmiran Priest who is actually a priest of Sivanah is a good possibility since Sivanah is the one god that covers for him.

2/5

Robert Hetherington wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:

Oh, there's a way to play a Razmiran Priest as a Cleric in PFS, and I was HIGHLY considering it

** spoiler omitted **
Not PFS legal because you can't worship an evil god.
Evil gods are perfectly legal to worship.

Eyup! Heck, you CAN play a Rovagug worshiper as a CN in PFS.

All core deities are viable (or at least they were last time I checked the guidebook).
The issue is that you yourself cannot be evil, and as such can't play right in alignment with your divine patron if you have an Evil one (meaning that the Exalted prestige class cannot be played with followers of evil gods even though it can be with good gods).
So an Asmodean can be all about following the letter of the law but he can't be about doing it through despicable action and torment, a Kuthite can be a masochist but not a pure sadist, etc.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

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Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:
...you CAN play a Rovagug worshiper as a CN in PFS

Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you SHOULD

5/5 *****

LazarX wrote:
Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:

Oh, there's a way to play a Razmiran Priest as a Cleric in PFS, and I was HIGHLY considering it

** spoiler omitted **
Not PFS legal because you can't worship an evil god.

Since when? The legion of asmodean clerics and inquisitors would disagree with you. I have played with several clerics of Lammashtu, Rovagug and other evil deities, all of which are entirely legal.

PC's cannot have an evil alignment, clerics merely need to be within 1 alignment step of their deity. Lawful Neutral Clerics of Asmodeus, Chatonic Neutral Clerics of Rovagug, both entirely legal.

Scarab Sages

You can worship an evil god, just as long as the god isn't a daemonic harbinger, infernal duke, nascent demon lord, great old one, whore queen, or any other prohibited pantheon.

Norgorber, Urgathoa, Zon-Kuthon, Asmodeus, Rovagug, and Lamashtu are all just fine from the core pantheon, not to mention all the other minor gods introduces elsewhere.

Also note, Pathfinder removed the 3.5 prohibition that you must worship a TN deity to be a TN cleric, so TN clerics of Urgathoa and Norgorber are perfectly legal.

Dark Archive 5/5 5/5

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Bob Jonquet wrote:
Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:
...you CAN play a Rovagug worshiper as a CN in PFS
Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you SHOULD

Oh, come on. Really? You are dangerously close to being the Fun Police with that statement. There are any number of reasons to be a Rovagug worshipper in PFS.

Something as fluffy as who or what a character worships is hardly worth your prohibitive statement.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

While I agree in principle, certain deities, like that, are pretty much just asking for trouble with other players and their characters, and I find it a very hard sale that, if there are "numerous reasons", that they would be worth the trouble it will inevitably cause.

Dark Archive 5/5 5/5

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"Devil's Advocate" wrote:
While I agree in principle, certain deities, like that, are pretty much just asking for trouble with other players and their characters, and I find it a very hard sale that, if there are "numerous reasons", that they would be worth the trouble it will inevitably cause.

You are bringing Player Problems into a discussion about Character Problems. Players are problematic, not characters.

Sovereign Court

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I'm still on my first adventure, so I've yet to see how it ends, but I'm working well with my fellow Pathfinders, because that's what I'm going to do.

Being a cleric of an evil deity is but part of the whole experience.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

GM Bold Strider wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

Weren't we just over this?

Yes, you can worship Aroden, and gain mechanical benefits from doing so.

There are even a couple PFS-legal Traits for such a character to choose from (HERE and HERE).

Same goes for Razmir.

Those are the exceptions that prove the rule. In PFS terms. You cannot worship Aroden or Razmir. You can do something that is unique to those two, to qualify for spe ific feats. But it isn't worship in the PFS sense.

I helped write the rule in the guide on this, so I both know the intent and RAW.

I have no idea what you mean. The item clearly states that Razmir must be your patron, thus he is the 'god' you worship in the PFS sense. The traits require Aroden worship. All three are PFS legal. How is this not worship in the PFS sense and how are these exceptions that prove the rule? They are just the rule.

I cannot have an Aroden trait and then pick up Butterfly Sting because I "something unique" Aroden and "worship" Desna, so it stands to reason that you can worship Aroden and Razmir. You might not be able to be a cleric of Aroden or Razmir as they have no domains, but that is an entirely different thing.

Patron does not necessarily equal worship. In the case of the two traits, they require you to be a member of the faith.

Three things must be considered:

1)is the entity legal to worship in PFS? In this case, Aroden and Razmir are not on the list of legal deities.

2) is there a faith based on said entity? In this case the answer is yes. Being a member of a faith, whether Worship, Venerate, or something else for those that arent divine, precludes membership in another faith.

3) do i want mechanical benefit? If the answer is yes, you generally must worship. For those entities that are illegal to worship in PFS that have legal mechanics tied to faith, you still cant Worship them. But specific trumps general. For those mechanical items, you can claim membership in the faith. But it is not worship. Semantics? Sure. But an important designation.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Alrighty. Thanks for that explanation.

A breakdown of those points would have been useful like 50 posts ago, though.


kinevon wrote:
Which is also why some other things are right out, or severely limited (see the ring of oratory or whatever it is named).

If you're thinking of the Ring of Eloquence (which gives a bonus to all the social/speaking skills), then it's legal for play with no restrictions according to the Additional Resources page. There is a note there that seems to indicate that a bunch of things were banned but were let back in. (It's under the Advanced Class Guide.)

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

outshyn wrote:
kinevon wrote:
Which is also why some other things are right out, or severely limited (see the ring of oratory or whatever it is named).
If you're thinking of the Ring of Eloquence (which gives a bonus to all the social/speaking skills), then it's legal for play with no restrictions according to the Additional Resources page.

kinevon was correct in that the Ring of Eloquence is "severely limited", though. Only two versions of the ring exist: the two examples that are given in the item's description. You can't pick just any 4 languages you want (in PFS).

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

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jon dehning wrote:
Bob Jonquet wrote:
Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:
...you CAN play a Rovagug worshiper as a CN in PFS
Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you SHOULD

Oh, come on. Really? You are dangerously close to being the Fun Police with that statement. There are any number of reasons to be a Rovagug worshipper in PFS.

Something as fluffy as who or what a character worships is hardly worth your prohibitive statement.

Spoiler:

I don't want to derail this thread anymore than it already is, but I will explain my statement. Does it border on a claim of BadWrongFun? Yes, it does. Do I ban said character types from my table? No. Do I intentionally punish said characters at my table? No. If players ask my opinion, do I strongly encourage them to avoid playing said characters? Yes, I do. I do not agree that it is merely a fluff choice. Role-play is a large part of the game and can be greatly affected by your choice of deity.

In a home campaign where I have the free ability to explore and support the challenges that accompany an evil deity worshiping PC, I embrace it unless the campaign specifically calls for no evil. But, in PFS the abilities of a GM to accommodate a PC devoted to evil tenets are restricted significantly. There are in-game social conflicts both with other characters and NPCs. Too often whether or not a player intentionally created said character to be disruptive, they become that way anyway. If you are playing with the same group all the time, that's fine, but in a world-wide social campaign, IMO the negatives far outweigh the benefits.

I want PFS to be as inclusive and offer the maximum widest range of character options as possible. It is a strange mixed-message to say "no evil character" and yet allow them to freely use evil spells and worship evil deities. I tried to keep an open mind about the exceptions for evil spells, and for worshiping evil deities, but my experiences have demonstrated time and time again that at best it detracts from the game, and at worst creates heated conflict that makes people walk from tables and refuse to play under those circumstances. Many work-arounds have been suggested, but they are marginally effective. Its just not a healthy table dynamic.

Of course, this is just my opinion and YMMV.

2/5 *

Bob Jonquet wrote:
jon dehning wrote:
Bob Jonquet wrote:
Lord Twitchiopolis wrote:
...you CAN play a Rovagug worshiper as a CN in PFS
Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you SHOULD

Oh, come on. Really? You are dangerously close to being the Fun Police with that statement. There are any number of reasons to be a Rovagug worshipper in PFS.

Something as fluffy as who or what a character worships is hardly worth your prohibitive statement.

** spoiler omitted **...

Agree fully with this especially when the God in question is one of those that simply wants to murder , kill, and Destroy the World.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

I played a Rovagug worshipper all the way to L12. A good time was had by all.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Sammy T wrote:
I played a Rovagug worshipper all the way to L12. A good time was had by all.

Same here, to 13th.

But many GMs cried. My character was focused on Sundering.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Nefreet wrote:

Alrighty. Thanks for that explanation.

A breakdown of those points would have been useful like 50 posts ago, though.

Since the conversation kept going the way it did, that's why I decided to try and give a more comprehensive break down

Grand Lodge

My PFS Breaker Barbarian sure loves Rovagug.

One day, she hopes to truly show her god that she is the greatest destructor, and destroy Rovagug.

5/5

Eric Clingenpeel wrote:
You're right, the base game doesn't require deities, however the world of Golarion does. There's an in world reason people don't go around saying they're clerics of Aroden and actually having divine powers to back them up. In Golarion the gods grant divine powers. That's why PFS requires deities.

Actually there are a Few divine casters of Aroden in PFS


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here is a big reason why you can't play a godless priest in PFS, The creators of the setting say so.

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