So... Natural Attacks...?

[Neal Litherland]

I've been a long time Pathfinder player, but I have never actually delved much into the natural attack options. However, I find that in the latest campaign I've been given, I have access to a bite attack, and may gain claws if I so desire.

So here are some questions I've got. As always, page numbers and/or links to the relevant data would be phenomenal, as I'll need to share them with my DM to make sure we're both on the same page.

First question: Primary natural attacks gain 1 1/2 times strength on damage, correct? So, say I have a bite attack, and a 14 strength. I hit, so I roll a d6 for damage, and add 3 to it?

Second Question: If you have multiple natural attacks, then you can take them all as part of a full attack action, correct? For example, say you have two claws (as some barbarians and sorcerers can for a certain number of rounds per day). If you take a full attack action at level 1, do you make two attacks? And is there a negative, like there is with two weapon fighting, or do we get to ignore that two weapon fighting negative in the same way most monsters do?

Third Question: Natural attacks and BAB progression. How the hell does this SNAFU work? Say you have two claws, but your bab is currently at +6/+1. Do you get 4 attacks, 3 attacks, or because they're natural attacks are you just stuck at two, and them's the breaks?

Thanks for the help all!

[Claxon]

You don't get iterative attacks with natural attacks. You can make 1 attack with each natural attack. Primary attacks are made at full BAB and get 1.5 strength to damage. Secondary attacks are made at BAB -5 and only get half strength.

Quote:

Natural Attacks Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks. Primary attacks are made using the creature's full base attack bonus and add the creature's full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature's base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type. The natural attacks by size table lists some of the most common types of natural attacks and their classifications.

Some creatures treat one or more of their attacks differently, such as dragons, which always receive 1-1/2 times their Strength bonus on damage rolls with their bite attack. These exceptions are noted in the creature's description.

Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type.

Some creatures do not have natural attacks. These creatures can make unarmed strikes just like humans do. See the natural attacks by size table for typical damage values for natural attacks by creature size.

Format: bite +5 (1d6+1), 2 claws +5 (1d4+2), 4 tentacles +0 (1d4+1); Location: Melee and Ranged.

[blackbloodtroll]

1) Yes, if they are your only Natural Attack. If you have more than one, like two claws, then you get x1 Strength to damage.

2) All. No penalties. Full BAB. Two-weapon fighting only comes into play with manufactured weapon attacks, and only if you take the full round action to two weapon fight, and gain an extra attack. Natural Attacks do not use any of these rules, and none apply to them.

3) No. You always get the same amount of Natural Attacks, no matter how high your BAB is.

[Neal Litherland]

So, let me run this scenario to see if I understand it correctly.

I'm running a bloodmarked skinwalker, and when he transforms he gains a bite attack. He is a first level swashbuckler, and has a rapier in his hand. Can I, as a full-round attack, stab with the sword, and make a bite attack?

My reading seems to say that natural attacks, particularly natural attacks like bite or gore that leave your hands free, are things you can use to give your character more attacks than they would normally get during a full attack action. So, rather than choosing between a bite or a sword thrust, you would gain both. Is that accurate?

[Ian Bell]

Yes, however, in that case the bite would be treated as a secondary attack - -5 to hit and 1/2 strength bonus to damage.

[blackbloodtroll]

Yes. You can make natural attacks, in addition to manufacted weapon attacks, as long as they don't utilize the same limb. When you combine manufactured and natural attacks, all your natural attacks become secondary.

So, in this case, you would attack with your Rapier, and then your bite, which would be at -5, and 1/2 strength to damage.

EDIT: Partial Ninja.

[Neal Litherland]

If you take feats like Double Slice, would your secondary natural attacks then get full strength damage? It sounds like it would, just making sure.

I'm having that dumb feeling where I never considered natural attacks as part of a two-weapon fighter build, and now the brain is cooking.

[blackbloodtroll]

Double Slice has no effect on Natural Attacks.

Natural Attacks are never off-hand attacks. They are Primary, or Secondary.

Not the same.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

To expand on your example, if you had a Bite and 2 Claws and a Rapier, you can make a Bite and 2 Claws; or a Bite, a Claw, and your standard Rapier iterative attacks. So assuming BAB +6 and 14 Strength, you're looking at the following attack options:

Method A. Bite +8 (1D6+2), Claw +8 (1D4+2)(x2)
Method B. Bite +3 (1D6+1), Claw +3 (1D4+1), Rapier +8/+3 (1D6+2)

Against high-AC opponents, Method A should be the best choice, though if you are using a +1 or higher Rapier, it would be smart to simply stick to Rapier attacks if enemies have DR.

Against low-AC opponents, the sheer amount of damage you would deal with Method B would outweigh the accuracy benefits of Method A.

Take note that you could not take your Bite, 2 Claws, and Rapier attacks because one of your hands (where the Claws are located) is occupied with making the Rapier attacks. If your hand is simply holding the Rapier, some GMs will state that you can't make that Claw attack, so keep that in mind.

You could try to argue that you have Toenail Claws, but any sane GM (as well as most book examples) label Claws as being a Natural Weapon that occupies the hands (or what passes for hands).

With that said, if you plan on making Natural Weapons a thing, I would suggest investing in an Amulet of Mighty Fists +1-+5, to keep them relevant. Attacks having a certain Enhancement bonus can bypass material and alignment-based DR, which will be your biggest bane regarding Natural Weapons.

[Neal Litherland]

Good advice, Darksol.

I'll look into additional methods to enhance natural attacks, since they do suffer from the lack of magical boosting (last campaign I had a pseudodragon cohort who needed the benefits of true strike to get the job done at higher levels). Feats are in short supply, but magical items may be more common by the time we get there.

Still, though it would be difficult, I rather like the whirlwind of doom image. And if you're taking iterative attacks anyway, rolling an extra attack for your bite risks nothing.

[blackbloodtroll]

You looking to go Dex?

I suggest creating a thread in the Advice Board.

I would be glad to help you there.

[Johnny_Devo]

Just wanted to point out that bite + 2 claws + rapier shouldn't work out, if i recall correctly. You can't make a natural attack with the same limb/head/part that uses a manufactured weapon. In this situation you would have all your rapier attacks, one bite, and one claw.

[mdt]

Also note it get's more interesting if you have Improved Unarmed Strike, as you could make all your iterative attacks using knees/feet/elbows, and then turn around and make your natural weapon claws & bite attack.

If you plan on going that route, you want Multiattack feat, as that reduces the penalty on secondary attacks to -2 instead of -5.

I saw a character with two claws, a bite, IUS, and Multiattack. At level 11, they were hitting for 16/11/6 & 14/14/14 in a single round. Nasty.

[Neal Litherland]

Good advice all around. Need to start poking through the various items and feats that work with natural attacks. Likely reading through the Bestiary. A lot.

[Neal Litherland]

Sadly, multiattack won't do me any good. I only have a bite, not claws. You need at least 3 natural weapons for multiattack, it seems.

[Rathendar]

Neal Litherland wrote:

Sadly, multiattack won't do me any good. I only have a bite, not claws. You need at least 3 natural weapons for multiattack, it seems.

(Feat)Aspect of the Beast - Claws of the Beast should help you meet that.

[Monboku]

Rathendar wrote:

Neal Litherland wrote:

Sadly, multiattack won't do me any good. I only have a bite, not claws. You need at least 3 natural weapons for multiattack, it seems.

(Feat)Aspect of the Beast - Claws of the Beast should help you meet that.

also Alchemist levels give you claw attacks. Sadly they have nerfed the extra limbs discovery so you cannot get 4 claws and two bites any more but the feral discovery is one of the best ways of obtaining the claw attacks.not to mention the mutagen enhances your favorite physical stat and gives you natural armor...

[Avoron]

Incidentally, you can still get four claws with your vestigial arms as long as you swap out your iterative and off-hand unarmed strikes for claw attacks. You just can't exceed your previous number of attacks, it's not tracking natural vs. manufactured.

Do with that what you will.