New Star Trek Series Premieres January 2017


Television

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Sovereign Court

What did Isaacs say?


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There is a problem - with this show and Enterprise.

When the Enterprise escaped Psi 2000 via Cold Restart hurling them back in time 3 days, Spock notes this as unprecedented. No one had done it before in the history of any species known to the Federation. So Archer could not have ever time traveled in the same timeline.
When they encountered Lazarus, there was no other instance to prove the existence of parallel realities. So no one could have discovered one and lived to tell the tale beforehand.

This is on top of technologies 150+ years ahead of time, and whole species being altered beyond recognition.


I think they need to stop going back in star trek time and instead move forward. Get imaginative get some new technology inspire the next generation. Think about how much of our technology was inspired from star trek. so lets set a new bar.


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GreenDragon1133 wrote:

There is a problem - with this show and Enterprise.

When the Enterprise escaped Psi 2000 via Cold Restart hurling them back in time 3 days, Spock notes this as unprecedented. No one had done it before in the history of any species known to the Federation. So Archer could not have ever time traveled in the same timeline.
When they encountered Lazarus, there was no other instance to prove the existence of parallel realities. So no one could have discovered one and lived to tell the tale beforehand.

This is on top of technologies 150+ years ahead of time, and whole species being altered beyond recognition.

Regarding the escape from PSI 2000, the 'Temporal Cold War', incident(s) would have been so highly classified that I doubt that it would have been known beyond a handful of dusty files and a couple of Vulcans who were alive at the time in positions of command.

In the case of Lazarus, yes, this is a case where Discovery really breaks Canon.


I hasn't bothered me too much because once I saw the spore drive work, I was pretty sure the ship (and the drive, and sadly Stamets) doesn't survive the show. Or they figure out that using the spore drive damages reality and/or warp travel. Or it's all classified above top secret.

I'm not ruling out the first two options, but I'm leaning more on option three on why the NCC-1031's voyages won't break (unclassified) canon.


I really wish Jason Issacs was on the Orville instead of Seth MacFarlane...


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Uh disagree on that one.


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I think the mirror universe is woven much deeper into this season's story, and has been from the beginning. My theory is that Lorca is the mirror universe version. He's missing from that universe, because he found a way to cross over into our reality.

The mirror universe Burnham is quite probably dead, maybe killed by him. so he's wanted to recruit prime Burnham, in order to use her – the mirror universe Burnham is said to be influential with the emperor – in his plot to overthrow the emperor.

Note how he has manipulated to get Burnham on his ship and into his service.
Note how he has been pushing the spore drive. Note how has been looking into alternate universes even before Discovery crossed over. Note also how he seems to have interfered with the last jump in the midseason finale to return to the mirror universe.

The identity of the mirror universe emperor also did not surprise me, it was exactly what I expected.


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GreenDragon1133 wrote:

There is a problem - with this show and Enterprise.

When the Enterprise escaped Psi 2000 via Cold Restart hurling them back in time 3 days, Spock notes this as unprecedented. No one had done it before in the history of any species known to the Federation. So Archer could not have ever time traveled in the same timeline.
When they encountered Lazarus, there was no other instance to prove the existence of parallel realities. So no one could have discovered one and lived to tell the tale beforehand.

This is on top of technologies 150+ years ahead of time, and whole species being altered beyond recognition.

The best way the new show can maintain continuity is if they fail to return to their own universe in their own time -- then the things they know that they shouldn't know won't affect their original timeline in any way.


Quote:
What really may do it for me is the whole "we want to do our own thing and not be bound by the previous Trek canon". To as Werthead has pointed out they not only bound themselves to current canon they thought we would not notice. I guess when rating fall any previous promises made get thrown out the window.

The entire show was filmed and completed months before it was filmed, so the ratings (or subscriptions) had no bearing on anything that happened in the story.

In addition, the sale to Netflix (which is probably on a 2-4 year contract) has put the show in profit before it filmed a single frame of footage.

Quote:
I can live with how Klingons language sounds even if it annoys me to no end to hear it

This is the original Klingon language from the Marc Okrand dictionary, which is interesting. In the TNG era they drifted away from using it (which they had for the movies) into just making stuff up, but for DISCO they went back to basics.

Quote:

When the Enterprise escaped Psi 2000 via Cold Restart hurling them back in time 3 days, Spock notes this as unprecedented. No one had done it before in the history of any species known to the Federation. So Archer could not have ever time traveled in the same timeline.

When they encountered Lazarus, there was no other instance to prove the existence of parallel realities. So no one could have discovered one and lived to tell the tale beforehand.

This is on top of technologies 150+ years ahead of time, and whole species being altered beyond recognition.

The original Enterprise wasn't part of the Federation and I can see records and mission information not being preserved or deleted or still classified or whatever. Starfleet probably deleted all references to the Temporal Cold War to stop the timeline being polluted.

As for the Discovery mission, my take is that Discovery is a black ops ship (maybe Section 31, maybe not) with top-secret technology and information. My guess is that the stuff it encountered was registered beyond top secret and the information was never released to other ships. Presumably the spore drive is destroyed or rendered inactive, so the Federation concludes that crossing the dimensional barrier again is impossible. When Kirk proves them wrong, they declassify the information for COs so they know what's going on.


GreenDragon1133 wrote:

There is a problem - with this show and Enterprise.

When the Enterprise escaped Psi 2000 via Cold Restart hurling them back in time 3 days, Spock notes this as unprecedented. No one had done it before in the history of any species known to the Federation. So Archer could not have ever time traveled in the same timeline.
When they encountered Lazarus, there was no other instance to prove the existence of parallel realities. So no one could have discovered one and lived to tell the tale beforehand.

This is on top of technologies 150+ years ahead of time, and whole species being altered beyond recognition.

I thought Spock was talking about them being able to time travel on their own. Their escape from PSI 2000 was the first instance of a Federation starship time traveling on purpose. "Now we know; the formula works." Everything on Enterprise was either them time traveling using someone's else's tech or them having time travel forced upon them (the E^2 and WWII instances).


Why couldn't this story be told as a sequel to the DS9 series? I'm just wondering because it seems to be me that they could have saved themselves a lot of trouble by putting the show in the future than the past.


Delightful wrote:
Why couldn't this story be told as a sequel to the DS9 series? I'm just wondering because it seems to be me that they could have saved themselves a lot of trouble by putting the show in the future than the past.

I seem to remember Fuller was originally pushing for a serial episodes where each season focused on a different ship & timeframe. I think when this was originally in development, Paramount 1) was still expecting nuTrek to be a hit, so they wanted something earlier in the timeline that wouldn't directly contradict the Abramsverse, and 2) the different ships/timeframes each season would be too expensive for needing to (re)create new sets, wardrobe, and props.


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AdmiralAckbar wrote:
I seem to remember Fuller was originally pushing for a serial episodes where each season focused on a different ship & timeframe. I think when this was originally in development, Paramount 1) was still expecting nuTrek to be a hit, so they wanted something earlier in the timeline that wouldn't directly contradict the Abramsverse, and 2) the different ships/timeframes each season would be too expensive for needing to (re)create new sets, wardrobe, and props.

DISCOVERY is made by CBS. When CBS and Paramount split apart with the fall of Viacom, Paramount got the movie rights and CBS the TV rights and the two could not meet (one of the reasons DISCOVERY isn't set in the Abramsverse is because of this rights issue). Paramount have no say in DISCOVERY, at least unless they merge again which apparently is a possibility.

The anthology format was apparently an early idea but CBS weren't keen, feeling having a regular ongoing series was more interesting to them. I also suspect that if DISCOVERY is successful in the long run, they will simply make more STAR TREK shows which can be set in other eras.

Scarab Sages

Officer Stamets is progressing nicely upon his dark path to becoming a fungus lich.

He's more mycelium than man, now....


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...Well S$#t.... did not see that coming

No wonder fandom had trouble warming up to Lorca


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Guess I was right, then.


It was predictable, but mainly only because of Jonathan Frakes letting slip that they were going to the Mirror Universe. If he hadn't done that, people probably wouldn't have come up with the solution months before they wanted.

Although oddly DISCOVERY does feel like a show that actually would benefit more from being binged in a weekend rather than being torn apart in analysis over the space of five months. That way the twists would work better and the pacing wouldn't feel as off as it has.

The show also has a nice get out of jail card. They can return "home" only to find themselves in the "real" Prime Universe (and discover that their home universe was another variant), or they can bounce from universe to universe exploring different variations on reality (explaining why the Mirror Universe and Spore Drive never become known to the original universe). Interesting to see how they play this.


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Werthead wrote:
bounce from universe to universe exploring different variations on reality (explaining why the Mirror Universe and Spore Drive never become known to the original universe). Interesting to see how they play this.

Kind of like Voyager only with a bigger sandbox


I was reading before that Fuller's original plan was to drop the USS Discovery into

Spoiler:
the Mirror Universe by episode 4. That was revised instead for much more character building (and audience investment) up through now.

I am often wrong about such things, but I think we have already seen why the Spore Drive won't be used for much longer: the damage that MirrorStamets (and possibly PrimeStamets) have already done to the Mycelial Network. That, plus the existing UFP prohibitions against humanoid genegineering, could be why the Spore Drive was eventually banned and classified "above" top secret in the Prime Universe (and why the knowledge was unavailable for USS Voyager to get home). And with Culber definitively dead, Stamets seems increasingly likely to completely give up on further research. If Culber's spirit "lives on" within the network, Stamets may get Discovery home only to project himself bodily into the Network to be with Culber.

Still, there is the third way that Lorca apparently discovered (no pun intended):

Spoiler:
As Burnham now knows, traveling between Mirror and Prime via interphasic rift is lethal to humanoids, as seen with the original crew of the ST:TOS USS Defiant. Travel via the Mycelial Network seems likely to become much more difficult and/or hazardous due to the damage already done to it (and seemingly still spreading). But there seems to be a third way that MirrorLorca used to travel to the Prime before he became captain of Discovery. Is this third method similar to the ion storm + transporter accident seen in ST:TOS's "Mirror, Mirror" and the multidimensional transporter seen in ST:DS9? Is it related to the destruction of the USS Buran under Lorca? Or something else entirely?

And will any of this eventually explain why the expansionist Terran Empire hasn't attempted to invade the Prime universe yet?

Even with the revelations about Lorca, I think what he knows and what he did prior to captaining the USS Discovery will be essential to getting the ship and crew home. So, I suspect he lives for a bit longer, at least until the season finale.

I'm still thoroughly p!ssed at Tyler (and the writers) for the murder in sickbay. After that, I don't want him redeemed or rehabilitated, and I care nothing for his suffering; I just want him bodily, completely dead. Unfortunately, I think he will yet live, and somehow become instrumental in establishing the

Spoiler:
end of the Federation-Klingon War in the Prime universe.


Wow... did not see any of that coming. Tonight was perhaps my favorite Star Trek episode of all time...


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.......0_0?!

So Discovery has a new Captain....

Most of me screams "OMG what are you thinking?!"
but a small part of me says

"This is gonna be awesome"


Was good twist


Nice Season Finale... canNOT beLIEVE the last shot... at ALL!! amazing!

Scarab Sages

So:

The Terran Empire is now a headless colossus. Its Emperor is gone, and so is the pretender to the throne. While it would seem an like that places the "Mirror Federation" in an awfully good spot for some serious victories, the Mirror Universe's continued relevance in "later"/earlier series demands those victories not be too big.

We've never seen hide nor hair of Mirror Burnham, but for her to actually be dead would require an incredible feat of forbearance on the writers' part (a George R. R. Martin crack might be appropriate here, but I've never read/watched any of that)...and there's the throne to the seat of a Galactic Empire that would appear to have her name on it.

There's also the matter of Mirror/Prime Universe Lorca, who we've been told couldn't possibly have survived alone in Mirror Universe. Haha, yeah, right.

Anyone else wonder at all what Mirror Universe Dr. Culber is/was like? He's another counterpart we never got to see, and of all the regular cast, he's the hardest to see a place for in the Mirror Universe. He was very reminiscent of Dr. Crusher, all nurturant warmth and Hippocratic ethics - so what if Mirror Culber is some kind of dead-opposite, Josef Mengele-type?

OH! Where would one even begin to try imagining...Mirror Mudd???


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DON'T FORGET, AM STILL OUT THERE SOMEWHERE!!!


AM TARDIGRADE wrote:
DON'T FORGET, AM STILL OUT THERE SOMEWHERE!!!

We appreciate you making an apearance.


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AM CHRIST-FIGURE, BECOME TARDIGRADE-KEBAB, GIVE SELF FOR HUMAN AND KELPIAN SINS BEFORE ASCENDING...

...THAT MEANS PASTY SCIENTIST WHO PARTAKE OF TARDIGRADE ESSENCE AND TAKE PLACE IS FIRST SPACE-POPE.


K.


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I don't really buy their method for ending the war.

Imagine if Elon Musk said, "My rocket test was actually cover for creating a weapon with which I can devastate the planet. Make me ruler of the entire world or die!"

That doesn't seem like a satisfactory resolution so much as the beginning of an incredibly unstable situation. How long before the first assassination attempt? A few hours?


Well I vote elon musk for world leader. I could think of worse evil dictators.


I have slowly come to enjoy the show yet I'm also wondering if it jumped the shark imo.

:
Pulling a Dallas and bringing back Bobby from the dead or in this case georgiou even if it is the evil version. Star Trek is not a show where one kills off a character then brought back and so on. Showing us the original Enterprise all good and well. Except it makes the Discovery design look terrible imo. The Discovery comes off as a highschool science project made the day before the science fair. They really need to stop propping up Michael as a Mary Sue character. Let others shine. Of course her solution was the only solution to unify the Klingon empire.

The only other thing I dislike is for a show that claimed it wanted to distance itself from the other Trek shows they are doing anything but imo. I'm willing to give the second season a chance yet the writers really have to do something to make it worth while.


I like the faster plot development of the show. For instance, Voyager was great but burdened the audience with an inescapable situation i.e. we're 70 years away from Earth at full warp. Well, guess what? when the show wrapped up it took them one episode or less to figure how to make it back home.

With Discovery, we all get that this is scifi/fantasy, and I don't mind at all that solutions to major problems come within the same show they're presented. It's a nod to the original Star Trek or TNG which had self-contained shows. Here, they manage to pull that off, AND present a show-by-show season continuity. I'll allow them the small 'sin' of tying loose ends by the end of each season. In fact, I absolutely love this.

Scarab Sages

GM PDK wrote:
With Discovery, we all get that this is scifi/fantasy, and I don't mind at all that solutions to major problems come within the same show they're presented.

Well, no; Star Trek has always resided securely in the 'solid/mainline' sci-fi zone of the spectrum - that is entirely different from 'hard' sci-fi (like what the 'Killer Bs', among others, are famous for writing), which it certainly isn't, but nor is it flat-out science-fantasy like Star Wars.

They work hard to keep things rooted in real 'science', then fractalize onto the obvious 'fiction' bits - but even with low-psi, some dabbling in spirituality, Clarke's Law in abundance, various superbeings who embody The Unknown, and now, shroom-powered psychonauts, they take care that the roots from proper science are never wholly lost sight of (J.J-Trek's apparent careless disregard for that being one of many reasons not to like those).


I found that the end of the Klingon War happened a little too conveniently. And the final scene was completely unnecessary.

Also, I really hope that they don't bring on a new captain.

Silver Crusade

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The Thing From Another World wrote:

I have slowly come to enjoy the show yet I'm also wondering if it jumped the shark imo.

** spoiler omitted **

The only other thing I dislike is for a show that claimed it wanted to distance itself from the other Trek shows they are doing anything but imo. I'm willing to give the second season a chance yet the writers really have to do something to make it worth while.

I guarantee if Spock came up with the same solution you'd have applauded his brilliance.

Dark Archive

What if the new Captain is Spock?
He served under Captain Pike after all... ;-)
I hope it´s Prime Lorca somehow.


DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:


I guarantee if Spock came up with the same solution you'd have applauded his brilliance.

I guarantee you really should not accuse someone of being misygontic and sexist.

I could care less if it was a male or female actress who played Michael. I despise Mary Sue style characters in any kind of entertainment. The current writers zeem too enarmored of the chsracter imo. Keep up with personal ad homein attacks though.


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The Thing From Another World wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:


I guarantee if Spock came up with the same solution you'd have applauded his brilliance.

I guarantee you really should not accuse someone of being misygontic and sexist.

I could care less if it was a male or female actress who played Michael. I despise Mary Sue style characters in any kind of entertainment. The current writers zeem too enarmored of the chsracter imo. Keep up with personal ad homein attacks though.

Did I miss an edit or something in DMaD's original comment?

---

I adore Sonequa Martin's performance as Burnham, even when the writing for her character can be a bit hit or miss. I like Burnham being both a take-charge, highly capable officer and an outspoken advocate for Starfleet's best principles.

But... I do think the show can focus on her to the detriment of the development of most of the other characters. (My major complaint about ST:TOS is it too often becomes the Kirk & Spock Show.) The most memorable moments of the show so far (for me) has been when we have seen the Discovery crew working as a superb team. Like Tilly, Culber, and Stamets in the Spore Drive sequences, or the bridge crew under Captain Saru's command taking out the ISS Charon. I only know the names of most of the bridge crew by consulting Memory Alpha. And as much as I like Burnham, that ceremonial speech in the finale felt like it should have at least partially delivered by Saru.

And that bit at the end where the Discovery is supposed to be warping to pick up a new captain? I'm sorry, but No. Saru has repeatedly demonstrated his excellence under fire; he's earned the big chair. I'm also quite enjoying Tilly's hidden depths and growth too.

Hopefully, now that the show has demonstrated it has legs, the writers and showrunners will finally take the time in season 2 to flesh out the rest of the bridge crew. If the Discovery command crew weren't among Starfleet's finest officers, they wouldn't have made it to the bridge of such a primo posting. So let us seen it.

As for the finale, it felt rushed and didn't quite stick the landing. I'm not a fan of Akiva Goldsmith's work, and I see he directed and co-wrote this episode, so... eh. Still, every Trek I've watched has had imperfect first seasons, and ST:D has been better than most of them. I will definitely try to watch season 2 when it comes around.

Scarab Sages

The Thing From Another World wrote:


I could care less if it was a male or female actress who played Michael. I despise Mary Sue style characters in any kind of entertainment. The current writers zeem too enarmored of the chsracter imo. Keep up with personal ad homein attacks though.

Two things that are kind of puzzling about the Michael Burnham character:

1) Is there any precedent for a "central protagonist" in Star Trek? The Next Generation did have many episodes centered on a single character (you'd have a "Picard episode" one day, then a "Data episode", then a "Worf episode", a "Dr. Crusher episode", etc), and Deep Space Nine made the transition from episodic-plus-continuity to grand-narrative-arc-serial, but as far as I know, a single, serialized narrative with the same primary protagonist all the way through is new.

2) Why does she need to be Spock's 'secret stepsister'? Being adopted by Vulcans suits her (I think she could've stood to retain more of her Vulcan upbringing through the series rather than slough off as much as she did as quickly as she did), but she doesn't need to piggyback off Spock. It just winds up detracting from them both.


I don't appreciate being told if the actor in a show is male that I would like Michael more as a character. I admit I don't dislike the actress. I just think they base too much of the show around the character. I would feel the same no matter the gender of the person playing the character. I can't believe I actual need to say this.

Scarab Sages

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Ambrosia Slaad wrote:

And that bit at the end where the Discovery is supposed to be warping to pick up a new captain? I'm sorry, but No. Saru has repeatedly demonstrated his excellence under fire; he's earned the big chair. I'm also quite enjoying Tilly's hidden depths and growth too.

I'd been anticipating, years ago before there was any guarantee of any more good Star Trek, that so long as there were, the next captain would be gay...of course, it didn't quite work out like that, but what we got was hardly surprising, and kudos to them for doing it RIGHT (as opposed to Dr. Who, which visibly floundered with the issue at times - then again, sexuality of any sort has never often had reason to come up in that show). There were a couple scenes where maybe they seemed to be trying too hard, but for the most part? Stamets and Culber were there to be a crazy scientist/fungus-lich and a kindly ship's doctor. They were a 23rd-Century couple (married or not? They kept calling each other "my partner", so I couldn't tell), and they had nothing to prove.

Ah, but...first ALIEN captain?!? Now THAT'S our new frontier!

The Thing From Another World wrote:
I don't appreciate being told if the actor in a show is male that I would like Michael more as a character. I admit I don't dislike the actress. I just think they base too much of the show around the character. I would feel the same no matter the gender of the person playing the character. I can't believe I actual need to say this.

Welcome to the Identitarian Inquisition. "If you're not with us, then you're against us! All are guilty until proven innocent!"

That lot could stand to learn from the final speech in that episode (the spirit was unmistakably there, but it could have been better-written)...or just, you know, psychology and history.


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The Thing From Another World wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:


I guarantee if Spock came up with the same solution you'd have applauded his brilliance.

I guarantee you really should not accuse someone of being misygontic and sexist.

I could care less if it was a male or female actress who played Michael. I despise Mary Sue style characters in any kind of entertainment. The current writers zeem too enarmored of the chsracter imo. Keep up with personal ad homein attacks though.

I may have missed an edit or something, but please note that DMaD never accused you of being misogynistic. There are many other differences between Spock and Michael and/or TOS and Discovery that this could be referring to, and unless it is explicitly stated, never assume someone is accusing you of prejudice, especially online, because that is how nasty arguments happen. Also, just because a person uses the word "you", does not mean that it is a personal ad hominem attack.

That said, it is important to acknowledge that subconscious biases do exist, and can influence your opinions on a character. This is not anyone's fault, subconscious biases are, of course, subconscious. Saying this, trying to be as nice as possible. :)
I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:

Welcome to the Identitarian Inquisition. "If you're not with us, then you're against us! All are guilty until proven innocent!"

No.

This is not an "inquisition", TTFAW was defending against accusations that were never even made.


I could understand the Spock reference if my main issue with Micheal character was that they should have used Spock instead of Michael as a character. Or I disliked the Michael character because she was not acting like Spock. Even then it was such a strange thing to say as a counter point. Maybe if I was still the young kid watching Star Trek on my black and white TV I would feel that way. Yet watching some of the re-runs of the TOS I would say the writers overused Spock, Mccoy and Kirk too much in the show. To be fair they were popular. The same could be said of Michael as a character as well yet probably not after one season.

It's touchy subject with myself personally. As all too often especially lately if one does not like a female character in whatever product it must be because of her gender and I would feel differently if she was male. To hell with gender give me a show with a good script, well filmed and depending on the genre decent production values and I'm a loyal fan.

Back to topic

I agree with Ambrosia Slaad in that Saru should be the Captain imo. If anyone is qualified it is his to be a good replacement. Something else I would have liked to see is a crisis between Michaal human and Vulcan nature when Tyler Vulk persona became dominant. bEfore and after. Trying to repress her emotions while also failing to do so. As she seems to have shed her Vulcan side too easily imo.

Anyone else recognize the Orion who was trying to steal Tilly briefcase. He bears a certain resemblance to a Tranya swilling creepy child like alien Balok.


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Saru should definitely be captain

Scarab Sages

The Thing From Another World wrote:
I agree with Ambrosia Slaad in that Saru should be the Captain imo. If anyone is qualified it is his to be a good replacement. Something else I would have liked to see is a crisis between Michaal human and Vulcan nature when Tyler Vulk persona became dominant. bEfore and after. Trying to repress her emotions while also failing to do so. As she seems to have shed her Vulcan side too easily imo.

My one concern with Saru as captain is actually a pretty old-fashioned one: He's just not particularly inspiring. He doesn't have that "captainy" a personality. He's a great First Officer and can certainly fill the Captain's chair when he needs to (as he has already done very frequently), but it's not clear that his permanent occupation of it wouldn't soon grow taxing on him, the crew, and viewers. He'd have A LOT of character development to get through, to say the least.

I am not kidding when I say that when I first saw him in the first couple episodes, the first other character he reminded me of was Puddleglum the Marsh-Wiggle from the later Chronicles of Narnia.


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Browman wrote:
Saru should definitely be captain

It's not like Starfleet has only one ship.

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