A medium humanoid (John), adjacent to no other characters, attempts to overrun a medium humanoid (Bill) who has Improved Unarmed Strike, Combat Reflexes (with three AoO) and Stand Still, and continue his movement through and out of Bill's adjacent squares. What happens?
Is it this: John moves into a space adjacent to Bill, provokes an AoO as part of his overrun maneuver. Bill takes his AoO as an unarmed strike (he can't use stand still because the AoO is not provoked from moving through adjacent squares) subtracting any damage from John's roll to overrun. John succeeds on his overrun roll and moves into Bill's space (does this provoke an AoO?), then moves from Bill's space into another adjacent space (does this provoke?), then moves from a space adjacent to Bill into a space not adjacent (does this provoke?)and proceeds to his full move.
When does the Stand Still take effect?
Additionally, what happens if John has improved overrun?
If John overruns Bill, and Bill does not get out of the way, John may knock Bill prone but he can't move to the opposite side of bill (although he could end on top of him in his square); this could be better described as crashing into Bill knocking him over but Bill grabs his leg and keeps him from moving.
If Bill gets out of the way, Bill has made a conscious decision to let John pass and therefore no check is made and John is past Bill. If John also had Greater/Improved Overrun, although Bill can't technically choose to let him pass unobstructed, and if for some reason Bill would normally let John pass then the Overrun check is made and John could trip Bill and keep going as Bill made a conscious "attempt" to let John pass.
End results is Bill hasn't moved at all in either case, but he is potentially tripped and John's relative position is as described above.
Note: if you overrun a target, the movement thereafter does not provoke. Since John either overrun Bill or didn't move in a way that provoked (although he would have provoked from the overrun attempt if he did not have Improved Overrun), there is no attack of opportunity against John.
If John overruns Bill, and Bill does not get out of the way, John may knock Bill prone but he can't move to the opposite side of bill (although he could end on top of him in his square)
Why not? If John makes his Combat Maneuver check and has movement left he should be able to move through Bill's space and beyond it.
Note: if you overrun a target, the movement thereafter does not provoke.
This is the language I was looking for. Where did you find it?
In general, movement provokes, and Overrun is no exception. When John moves through a space threatened by Bill (i.e. through the space directly in front Bill, moving into Bill's square) he provokes an AoO. It doesn't matter if Bill tries to avoid or not, this movement always provokes. Furthermore, since the AoO was provoked due to moving through an adjacent sqaure, Bill can use Stand Still.
The sequence of events would play out as follows:
John approaches Bill. When John is in front of Bill (adjacent) he initiates an Overrun. This provokes an AoO unless John has Imp. Overrun.
If Bill choses to avoid, John continues to move through the (adjacent) square in front of Bill (into Bill's square) provoking a second AoO. Bill can use Stand Still and make a combat maneuver check to halt John in that (adjacent) square in front of Bill.
If Bill chooses not to avoid, John makes a combat maneuver check to pass Bill. If that check fails, John is halted in front of Bill. If that check succeeds, John continues to move through the (adjacent) square in front of Bill and Bill can use Stand Still as described above. If John succeeds his check by 5 or more, Bill is knocked prone and John will continue, but Bill can still use Stand Still (albeit with a penalty for being prone).
If John overruns Bill, and Bill does not get out of the way, John may knock Bill prone but he can't move to the opposite side of bill (although he could end on top of him in his square)Why not? If John makes his Combat Maneuver check and has movement left he should be able to move through Bill's space and beyond it.
Note: if you overrun a target, the movement thereafter does not provoke.This is the language I was looking for. Where did you find it?
Oh whoops, misremembered the feat, if you overrun, then you don't provoke so you don't get stopped. If he chooses to let you pass, you succeed at the overrun and don't provoke.
Overrun (from combat rules) states that the overrun is a part of a move or charge, meaning the movement provoke is what's being negated (and failing is akin to you trying to move out of their threaten space into their space) so if you have improved you're good no matter what, but if you don't and fail, you provoked, they are standing and they can stop your already stopped movement.
Now all of that is thrown out the window if they have reach since you would provoke the standstill before you actually make the check to prevent the provoke.
Now say we have John, Bill, and Bill's cleric buddy Christian. Bill and Christian are standing next to each other, and John tries to overrun Christian. Bill can prevent this as the improved overrun feat doesn't apply to provoking from people you aren't overrunning, which is the only time standstill has an affect without reach.
This "ruling" comes from all of the really overrun based feats that, wording wise, mesh horribly together but this is the way they work when you read it with everything taken into account.
You don't get an attack of opportunity every feat, you get it once per action: I could circle around you all I want, but you only get one movement AoO per turn, combat reflexes or no.
If the mouser flies into your space and you have at least 10ft reach, you only get one provoke on them as normal, not one per 5ft square.
My comment was that when you overrun, the provoking is negated on whomever you overran.
You can't make more than one attack for a given opportunity e.g. movement. Moving out of more than one threatened square doesn't count as more than one opportunity. John could run circles around Bill and Bill would only be able to take one AoO, even with Combat Reflexes.
An Overrun would provoke two separate AoOs one from movement, the other from the combat maneuver itself (like all combat maneuvers). Improved Overrun would negate the AoO from the maneuver (like all combat maneuvers) but not the AoO from movement.
But if the mouser flies into your space and you have at least 10ft reach, you only get one provoke on them as normal, not one per 5ft square.Agreed, but so what?
My comment was that when you overrun, the provoking is negated on whomever you overran.Where are you getting this idea from? Are you thinking of improved overrun? The default situation is that you always provoke on EVERY square that you leave that was threatened by somebody. Then normally, a creature can only ACT ON one of the AoOs provoked against them (though all of them still provoke). Then, if you have combat reflexes, you can act on more than one provocation.
So your math on provoking is wrong.
Maybe if you read "Overrun (from combat rules) states that the overrun is a part of a move or charge" you would know where I got the rule from that overrun provoking comes from the movement, ie you trying to leave their square into theirs, you failing and then provoking.
The provocation from an Overrun comes from the combat maneuver itself.
A character could use Acrobatics to avoid provoking from movement through the entire maneuver and still he would provoke from the Overrun itself unless he had Improved Overrun.
As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square. You can only overrun an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. If you do not have the Improved Overrun feat, or a similar ability, initiating an overrun provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. If your overrun attempt fails, you stop in the space directly in front of the opponent, or the nearest open space in front of the creature if there are other creatures occupying that space.
Initiating the Overrun is what provokes from the target of the maneuver (and no one else). Movement provokes separately (from everyone threatening).
No, it is part of a move and therefor considered movement based provoking.
Even as so, it doesn't mean they cancel the overrun; the overrun has to fail for that to happen.
No, because they already provoked from movement and cant be AoOed again.
If they have Improved overrun, they don't provoke at all for the reason that the chance to provoke is gone (the first movement into the overrunie's square that actually sparks the CM check) and then all movement afterwards has already been "provoked".
If I am falling and provoking because I fall, but have a hypothetical feat that negated the provoking from falling, the movement provoke is already used this round so I can get up and move away from you afterwards unharmed. Apply this to overrun and now you have how overrun works.
The provocation from an Overrun comes from the combat maneuver itself.
A character could use Acrobatics to avoid provoking from movement through the entire maneuver and still he would provoke from the Overrun itself unless he had Improved Overrun.
** spoiler omitted **
Initiating the Overrun is what provokes from the target of the maneuver (and no one else). Movement provokes separately (from everyone threatening).
The issue lies in the wording of the other feats, which when you combine their "no feat" way that overrun works, that's not how overrun works. (It's like several different writers wrote the feat chain without consulting anyone else.)
Difference is that overrun isn't being tacked on to movement, movement is explicitly required for overrun to even work. A better wording would be more or less "Overrun is movement."
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The issue lies in the wording of the other feats, which when you combine their "no feat" way that overrun works, that's not how overrun works. (It's like several different writers wrote the feat chain without consulting anyone else.)The provocation from an Overrun comes from the combat maneuver itself.
A character could use Acrobatics to avoid provoking from movement through the entire maneuver and still he would provoke from the Overrun itself unless he had Improved Overrun.
** spoiler omitted **
Initiating the Overrun is what provokes from the target of the maneuver (and no one else). Movement provokes separately (from everyone threatening).
What are you even talking about? What feats? I didn't mention any feats aside from a tangential reference to Improved Overrun that in no way has any bearing on my post. Feel free to ignore it.
The provocation from an Overrun comes from the combat maneuver itself.
A character could use Acrobatics to avoid provoking from movement through the entire maneuver and still he would provoke from the Overrun itself.
** spoiler omitted **
Initiating the Overrun is what provokes from the target of the maneuver (and no one else). Movement provokes separately (from everyone threatening).
There.
Let's put it this way: if I move up to you and stop, there is no AoO, if I move up to you and try to keep moving then I'm provoking because I keep moving even if it's directly into you, if I keep moving away after I am behind you, you have already gotten the change to AoO from movement and you don't get an AoO because of it. Now when I try to move through you(r square), its movement that requires an Overrun check to move by you. Because its movement, there is no second attack of opportunity after I continue my movement past you, there isn't even a first one if I have improved overrun as the movement no longer provokes from you when I am overrunning you(so if I passed and kept moving, someone else could still swing in at me).
The words "taken during your move or as part of a charge".
But once again, because one is requiring the other, its different than eating an apply while flying to Denver, because one is literally doing something special with the other.
No, its still more of paying for the flight then having to pay again to board and exit the flight.
Overrun encompasses a move, requires movement before and allows movement after the check. Basically, the composite overrun is a full round action, since I get to move my whole movement speed and run by someone (or move double my speed, attack at the end and run by someone; why would you ever not take the charge option?). Taking an attack of opportunity because you don't have a feat is justifiable, same as having to pay to board if you didn't buy a ticket yet, but taking an attack of opportunity because you kept moving after you charged through someone (potentially knocking them down) and after you took a feat specifically to prevent AoO while making this maneuver is just dumb. Why even take the feat if this is the case? (Why can't martials have nice things?)
So then it follows as such:
Bill has standstill and is charged at to be overrun by John. John does not have improved overrun and succeeds at an overrun check against Bill. Bill gets an AoO against John for the missing feat but that doesn't prevent the overrun since it was not a movement based provoke. If John exceeded by 5 or more, Bill is prone and would take a -4 to the AoO for being prone. (If Bill had let John pass, John still provokes for initiating the maneuver but he passes otherwise unobstructed.) John is now behind Bill (relative to original placement) and may choose to either keep going or stop; should he keep moving, he provokes a movement based AoO that Bill can stop with standstill. Should John have Improved Overrun, he only provokes if he keeps moving after a successful check and Bill can no longer choose to avoid.
I still hold that if the intent was originally to keep moving past Bill and John has Improved Overrun, its completely lame to go "ha, gotcha after John careened into Bill, knocking him flat on his ass, probably stepped on his nads, and kept going at a mostly unchanged charging pace. (And that the whole of the movement is part of the overrun, but that's what happens when your rules are written in pseudo-legal lingo.)
Obviously JJ's word isn't law or anything but he (sort of) addresses this in the post linked below.
First of all, an overrun attempt (which is how you use the Trample feat) is a standard action. That means neither you nor your mount get to also make attacks of any kind beyond the free hoof attack your mount gets to make against any target you knock down. It's also normal movement, so you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal (unless you have the Improved Overrun feat as well).
I read that as saying that non-improved overrun provokes twice from the target and improved overrun doesn't provoke at all from the target.
Edit: Or maybe only one from the target of a non-improved overrun? I am not sure on that point. Definitely no AoO with improved overrun though.