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1. Yes. "Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD."
2. Yes.
3. It is flat denied its dexterity bonus - there is no limitation indicating it is only denied its Dex to AC.
4. Yes, in addition to losing any Dex bonus.
5. I think so, but am not sure.
6. You can't make any physical attacks, but you could use a mental ability such as a spell with no components (though you would need to make a concentration check) or a supernatural ability.
7. No, it is denied dex to everything (see 3).
8. I believe that pinned is supposed to be a more severe version of grappled and that they would not stack.
1. Probably an overlook error, RAW it just cancels part of rage but you could easily make a case to ignore it (especially with brutal pugilist's existence)
7. Pinned creature cannot make reflex saves as they are helpless, they autofail.
8. The pinned condition does not remove the grappled condition and the penalties stack as all penalties do, it's part of what makes breaking a pin really hard to do.
Everything else is correct.
Edit: for 7, I'm fairly sure if you are flatfooted you can't make reflex saves from attack rolls or directly from actions (like spells) at all, but this could just be fiat in rule's clothing in my mind.
Helpless specifically calls out held (we can only assume it means pinned) as helpless. (Someone said it refers to the hold person spell which is the same as paralysis but paralysis is already called out as well.)
And once again it may still be technically fiat (I still hold "if you are flatfooted you can't make reflex saves from attack rolls or directly from actions (like spells) at all"), but if you arms are strapped down, you can't shield yourself or react to that fireball.
Helpless specifically calls out held (we can only assume it means pinned) as helpless. (Someone said it refers to the hold person spell which is the same as paralysis but paralysis is already called out as well.)
And once again it may still be technically fiat (I still hold "if you are flatfooted you can't make reflex saves from attack rolls or directly from actions (like spells) at all"), but if you arms are strapped down, you can't shield yourself or react to that fireball.
It is completely fiat.
The only autofailure condition called out in the rules is rolling a natural 1. There's nothing under reflex saves or any of the conditions that says you are denied a reflex save--not under pinned, helpless, paralyzed, petrified, unconscious, etc.
Feel free to rule however you want in your own games, but be aware that that would be a house rule.
Helpless specifically calls out held (we can only assume it means pinned) as helpless. (Someone said it refers to the hold person spell which is the same as paralysis but paralysis is already called out as well.)
And once again it may still be technically fiat (I still hold "if you are flatfooted you can't make reflex saves from attack rolls or directly from actions (like spells) at all"), but if you arms are strapped down, you can't shield yourself or react to that fireball.
It is completely fiat.
The only autofailure condition called out in the rules is rolling a natural 1. There's nothing under reflex saves or any of the conditions that says you are denied a reflex save--not under pinned, helpless, paralyzed, petrified, unconscious, etc.
Feel free to rule however you want in your own games, but be aware that that would be a house rule.
Fair enough, but I fail to see how anyone could come to the conclusion (as a logic basis, not necessarily RAW) that unaware or unable to react gets a reflex save.
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Helpless specifically calls out held (we can only assume it means pinned) as helpless. (Someone said it refers to the hold person spell which is the same as paralysis but paralysis is already called out as well.)
The Pinned condition causes a creature to lose Dex to AC; Helpless means melee attacks hit automatically. These are quite different things. If Pinned also made attacks hit automatically, that's major enough that it should say so.
Interpreting "held" as "pinned" is a bit of a stretch. How is someone grappling you not "holding" you but someone pinning you is?
It's true that "held=Hold Person" is a bit redundant with also listing Paralysis, but I think it's far less of a stretch.
Fair enough, but I fail to see how anyone could come to the conclusion (as a logic basis, not necessarily RAW) that unaware or unable to react gets a reflex save.Helpless specifically calls out held (we can only assume it means pinned) as helpless. (Someone said it refers to the hold person spell which is the same as paralysis but paralysis is already called out as well.)
And once again it may still be technically fiat (I still hold "if you are flatfooted you can't make reflex saves from attack rolls or directly from actions (like spells) at all"), but if you arms are strapped down, you can't shield yourself or react to that fireball.
It is completely fiat.
The only autofailure condition called out in the rules is rolling a natural 1. There's nothing under reflex saves or any of the conditions that says you are denied a reflex save--not under pinned, helpless, paralyzed, petrified, unconscious, etc.
Feel free to rule however you want in your own games, but be aware that that would be a house rule.
I fail to see how anyone could come to the conclusion that a person could survive a fall from orbit or a 2nd level rogue standing in the middle of an open field could survive the breath attack from a dragon completely unscathed despite the dragon's breath hitting literally everything but the rogue and being hot enough to slag a tank. Or even that a typical first level fighter who is unconscious could survive a hack from a massive greataxe 95% of the time(not the careful execution style attack that is a coup de grace, but just a swing at a downed opponent). It's totally unrealistic, but...them's the rules.
Accept that a lot of things in Pathfinder are absurd. Doing things like allowing the above but saying that helpless creatures don't get a reflex save rapidly becomes a game of "which absurdities do I personally find offensive and thus shall arbitrarily houserule away". You are welcome to play this game at your own table with the agreement of your players, but presenting it as the appropriate ruling for others to make (your posts as I read them strongly hint that, but I could be misreading) isn't appropriate in the rules forum for the Pathfinder RPG and defeats the purpose of having a rules forum in the first place.
Helpless specifically calls out held (we can only assume it means pinned) as helpless. (Someone said it refers to the hold person spell which is the same as paralysis but paralysis is already called out as well.)The Pinned condition causes a creature to lose Dex to AC; Helpless means melee attacks hit automatically. These are quite different things. If Pinned also made attacks hit automatically, that's major enough that it should say so.
Interpreting "held" as "pinned" is a bit of a stretch. How is someone grappling you not "holding" you but someone pinning you is?
It's true that "held=Hold Person" is a bit redundant with also listing Paralysis, but I think it's far less of a stretch.
Actually, helpless doesn't let you get free hits. If you still attack with a standard action, you still have to roll against their DEX=0 AC (and missing dodge and whatever else would be removed), it requires a full round action that provokes to get a guaranteed hit (that's also a crit with benefits) which, if I pinned you to floor and bared your neck out, anyone could walk up and take advantage of with a knife and a quick slit (and feats could make happen in less time without provoking).
Holding someone to the point that they are unable to move is implied by pinned, and yes while grabbing your arm is holding, you are not being held as subtle differences in usage of the word implies. Being held down is different than holding and why I hold that it is the lesser of a stretch when it's the simplest revision (and something that has been brought up before, bound as well equals pinned - Blake unfortunately missed the earlier part where bound=pinned). So either way there is a redundancy, but either way pinned->helpless.
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Hmm. I seem to've misremembered Helpless making melee attacks auto-hit, you're right about that.
However, that still doesn't reconcile the following:
- Pinned makes you lose your Dex bonus to AC
- Helpless makes you function as if you had a Dex of 0
If Pinned was meant to make you helpless, there's little point in mentioning that it negates Dex bonus to AC.
Furthermore,
- Pinned creatures take a -4 to AC
- Helpless grants melee attacks a +4 to hit as if you were prone
By adding Helpless to the effects of Pinned, you're basically doubling the effects. If that was really intended I think Pinned would mention it.
Fair enough, but I fail to see how anyone could come to the conclusion (as a logic basis, not necessarily RAW) that unaware or unable to react gets a reflex save.Helpless specifically calls out held (we can only assume it means pinned) as helpless. (Someone said it refers to the hold person spell which is the same as paralysis but paralysis is already called out as well.)
And once again it may still be technically fiat (I still hold "if you are flatfooted you can't make reflex saves from attack rolls or directly from actions (like spells) at all"), but if you arms are strapped down, you can't shield yourself or react to that fireball.
It is completely fiat.
The only autofailure condition called out in the rules is rolling a natural 1. There's nothing under reflex saves or any of the conditions that says you are denied a reflex save--not under pinned, helpless, paralyzed, petrified, unconscious, etc.
Feel free to rule however you want in your own games, but be aware that that would be a house rule.
I fail to see how anyone could come to the conclusion that a person could survive a fall from orbit or a 2nd level rogue standing in the middle of an open field could survive the breath attack from a dragon completely unscathed despite the dragon's breath hitting literally everything but the rogue and being hot enough to slag a tank. Or even that a typical first level fighter who is unconscious could survive a hack from a massive greataxe 95% of the time(not the careful execution style attack that is a coup de grace, but just a swing at a downed opponent). It's totally unrealistic, but...them's the rules.
Accept that a lot of things in Pathfinder are absurd. Doing things like allowing the above but saying that helpless creatures don't get a reflex save rapidly becomes a game of "which absurdities do I personally find offensive and thus shall arbitrarily houserule away". You are welcome to...
Since we can assume that dragons don't encounter any surface heating going their max speed of 1250ft/r(MAC.2), we can assume that our magical fantasy world doesn't have orbital re-entry heating at terminal velocity of 500ft/s. That being said its about how you land, and since many a human in real life have survived falls from terminal velocity then our superhuman PCs could too. A rogue not being damaged by a reflex save boils down from a lot of abstraction to in most cases "he wasn't there", if the rogue is next to the dragon, he probably ducked under its mouth; however if the rogue was tied to a wooden post when our dragon breathed said fire, it makes perfect sense why he couldn't save (aside from being helpless), he can't react even though he is aware. The fighter's chances depend on how the axe falls, since the strike isn't being lines up, of course it could glance on armor, it could barely nick him, it could utterly miss, etc. When the abstraction does not counter all of the possible ways someone couldn't do something, that's when you make house rules.
I understand there are some wonky things; but, it's not that there are many of them, it's that they are so wide is influence that simple things like "you are unaware of the spell being cast and therefore it's impossible to dodge away from the lighting bolt (which moves at the speed of light once cast)" is all that's necessary. That's why we have a gm and we don't play 4e.
I also am not so much saying "accept my words." as much as kindly saying "prove me wrong."
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Hmm. I seem to've misremembered Helpless making melee attacks auto-hit, you're right about that.
However, that still doesn't reconcile the following:
- Pinned makes you lose your Dex bonus to AC
- Helpless makes you function as if you had a Dex of 0If Pinned was meant to make you helpless, there's little point in mentioning that it negates Dex bonus to AC.
Furthermore,
- Pinned creatures take a -4 to AC
- Helpless grants melee attacks a +4 to hit as if you were proneBy adding Helpless to the effects of Pinned, you're basically doubling the effects. If that was really intended I think Pinned would mention it.
That's a completely wrong conclusion*:
Pinned means you're flatfooted (and some grapple penalties, otherwise irrelevant here) since flatfooted means you are denied your dex to AC, its just backwards semantics for "FF=no DEX"
A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.
Helpless means you have a DEX of zero, which in of itself is not actually FF, a +4 to hit against you in melee, and people can basically get free vorpal effects on you with as a special action
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.
As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets his sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity.
Creatures that are immune to critical hits do not take critical damage, nor do they need to make Fortitude saves to avoid being killed by a coup de grace.
Now we look at tie up rules:
If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD). The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin. If you are grappling the target, you can attempt to tie him up in ropes, but doing so requires a combat maneuver check at a –10 penalty. If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the target's CMB, the target cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check.
The "This works like a pin effect" combined with nothing else mentioning helpless means that Bound=Helpless, Bound=Pinned, and therefore Pinned=Helpless. So we conclude the pinned is indeed flatfooted and helpless.
Now we have a new question of loophole: if I am helpless, say from paralysis, since I am not FF'ed, do I still get dodge to AC? No, because dodge is itself called out ("...Any situation or effect (except wearing armor) that negates a character's Dexterity bonus also negates any dodge bonuses the character may have....", dodge bonus description) as not working on anything that negates the Dexterity bonus, not necessarily FF, helpless being one as it moves it to 0.
This is a built in system for grapple by raw. If we have a reason someone held flat on the ground should not be helpless, unable to move, and not flatfooted that isn't written (as pointed out, none exists written) then please speak up.
Edit: changes at "*"
Denied Dex bonus = FF (in this context as the only thing's its missing is no AoO which is already covered by pinned, hence "aware vs able to react")
It does not, that's not the way grapple actions are worded. It means that bound is the same things as pinned, just a different DC.
Yes they can, but that's irrelevant as has nothing to do with their ability to defend themselves. Retrying is also irrelevant to the point as they are still pinned until they break out.
Yes those abilities exist but there are literally three of them, and its still basically being bullheaded about semantics.
I once again point you to the fact that being bound/tied up is one of the methods of being helpless, being tied up is the same as being pinned, therefore being pinned is the same being helpless. It's all explained above.
Also someone please explain to me why the pinner is FF but the pinned person isn't. This makes no sense.
You didn't mention it, I was just making my own questioning of a separate rule; at least there is a feat to negate it, but monks only which is lame.
I fail to see how, it's just an additional action (which is probably only a swift by the point that I would be using Grapple->pin->tie->CDG as a 2 round action combo). So are we penalizing teamwork for martials as a balance thing now too?
We still have a RAW connection to pinned being helpless so unless it changes, it exists and pinned creatures can be coup de graced by a third party.
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Now we look at tie up rules:
If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD). The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin. If you are grappling the target, you can attempt to tie him up in ropes, but doing so requires a combat maneuver check at a –10 penalty. If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the target's CMB, the target cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check.The "This works like a pin effect" combined with nothing else mentioning helpless means that Bound=Helpless, Bound=Pinned, and therefore Pinned=Helpless.
Your use of = signs is misleading, because the items are not equivalent and so you can't apply the same logical reasoning that applies to equivalent items.
"Tied up is like pinned, and a tied up creature is helpless; therefore a pinned character is helpless" is about as logically sound as "A cat is like a lion, and a cat is a domestic pet; therefore a lion is a domestic pet."