Assistance, Will Robinson!! Firearms Revision


Homebrew and House Rules


I've been looking into firearm development, something I'm going to need to really get into in the relatively near future ... but PF (all D&D games, really) really sort of falls down when it comes to firearms. Firearms can be seperated into five groups:

  • Primitive: Weapons using flash-pan, wheel-lock, matchlock, and similar methods to fire the charge. Slow to load and fire, highly vulnerable to inclement weather.
  • Simple: Primarily flintlock weapons; faster to load, don't need already-burning 'matches', but still vulnerable to weather.
  • Developed: Percussion cap weapons, whether external brass-cap-on-nipple or needle-fired integral-paper-cartridge; alchemical cartridges are these latter ones, and the development of the paper percussion cap leads to nitrated cartridges for percussion revolvers, which are still front-loaded (just at the cylinder). This does eventually lead to weapons designed to be loaded at the breech (back of the barrel) instead of the muzzle (front of the rifle) - which, let me tell you, results in a lot faster firing rate.
  • Advanced: Pin-fire and rim-fire metal cartridges, all breech-loads; the latter are an evolution of the former, which were chancy with an exposed firing pin. Once rim-fire was developed, they could move the firing pin from the bullet to the hammer.
  • Modern: Center-fire cartridges as well as automatic and semi-automatic weapons, which use the recoil from firing to do various things - but basically means most of the guns we know today. (Most modern revolvers are double-action, meaning that pulling the trigger cocks the weapon, rotates the cylinder, AND fires the gun. Single-action revolvers are only Advanced, in this set-up.)
The leap between advanced and modern firearms - and even going from developed to modern - is a matter of decades. On Earth, the flintlock is developed around 1630; the percussion cap in 1825, which is what really gets things started. From there, it's a measley 52 years (1877) to the Winchester double-action revolver, and only six more to the Maxim gun, the world's first recoil-powered machine gun.

Pathfinder, however, already has metal cartridges and breechloading weapons - developed on Earth in 1857. The first field-piece automatic weapons (the French Mitrailleuse) made use of this in 1859, and Spencer developed his repeating carbine in 1860.

Which means PF (and other games) are much, much closer to the Gatling Gun (virtually already available), semi-auto pistol, &c. So why don't they? Well, here are the answers / reasons I've come up with, and will play with:


  • Firearms are dangerous. As in, REALLY dangerous. All non-proficiency penalties for gunpowder-using weapons (including siege weapons) are doubled.
  • Individuals proficient in firearm weapons but who do not have Grit, whether by class feature or feat, suffer standard non-proficiency penalties for gunpowder weapons. So taking the proficiency cuts the issues by half, but there's still the misfire chance issue ...
  • Misfire chances for non-Grit-possessing individuals are doubled. (Only doubled, not quadrupled, for non-feat-possessing individuals. I'm mean, not cruel.)
  • Mages have created and widely distributed spells specifically designed to a) locate at Extreme (800 + 80 ft/level) range (2nd level spell, variant on Locate Object) any amount of gunpowder, and b) have a good chance to detonate at Long range ('Rolling Comet', 4th level) large stores of the stuff. These spells are so widely distributed that they are automatic in spellbooks for any spell-memorizing class that can cast them.

This keeps firearms around in the world, but their volatility and general difficulty to handle keeps them uncommon and unlikely to overwhelm the rest of the world as they develop further. I do intend on them developing further, from flintlock and percussion-cap rifles into revolvers, pump- and lever-action longarms, and perhaps even up to gatling-style guns. However, because they are hideously dangerous unless you happen to have a PC class (as it were), they'll develop slowly, and never have the same massive effect on the world that firearms have IRL.

That said, ignoring the stuff you can acquire from Mosin-Nagant in Reign of Winger, the majority of PF firearms are simple firearms, found in eight general categories: small, standard, large, and multishot pistols; shotguns, longarms, and multishot shotguns/longarms; and heavy armament. What I need to do still is revise the PF weapons to fit into this system (primitive to advanced or modern), then develop the ten 'developed'-class weapons and four 'advanced'-class weapons that have yet to be developed.

This is where you come in, if you want to help.

I have a basic list of what weapons fit in where (found here, and I'm pretty confident of their placement, but feel free to debate); what I need are builds for the 'missing' weapons, and if something moves from one category to the other, well, that means something needs to be designed to fit there instead of the other, right? What might also be required are adjustments or definitions of firing and reload speeds for different classes of weapons; I am not familiar enough with the PF firearm rules, so there's a learning curve for me here as well.

I do not think these would change the feats and class progressions of firearms-using classes and archetypes, but by all means, if you think it would, sing out.


In a magical world, it makes sense that technology has stagnated. Any needs that pushes technology forward have been satisfied by magic. That's why guns were invented in the Mana Wastes. The one place where there is no magic.
Also considering how Golarian hasn't had its Industrial Revolution yet, it would make sense that there wouldn't be any Advanced or Modern guns yet.

Dark Archive

I generally disagree with the 'magic trumps technology' argument and I don't feel like it explains why technology just stops progressing in the medieval era.

Magic is SUPPOSEDLY suppose to be a rare thing. Mechanically, its not. A majority of the classes have access to spells and spell casting and magical items are available in nearly everywhere. But thematically, people are suppose to be afraid of magic because it is weird and they don't understand and people keep summoning demons and zombies with it. Towns usually only have one or two NPCs that can provide magical services and the townsfolk usually begrudgingly purchase it from them.

Second, magic is expensive. A spell cost Caster level × spell level × 10 gp. Most NPCs are paid in Copper or Silver (assuming they aren't serfs or slaves and are actually paid for their services) and they would have to save up for quite a while before buying a level 1 spell. Magical items aren't even on the table for them. (On a side note, in most towns, I assume a magical item merchant only has to sell one magic item a year to pay their rent). Nobles and (successful) adventurers can afford these services, but the vast majority of people that inhabit most settings can not. It would make sense that lesser folk would look for cheaper alternatives. I'm sure there is a spell that will collect food from a field, but it is probably much cheaper to buy some farm tools and a laborer or two than it is to hire a wizard.
(I am aware that in Golarian, Firearms are stupidly expensive, which restricts their use.)

Liberty's Edge

Koujow wrote:

I generally disagree with the 'magic trumps technology' argument and I don't feel like it explains why technology just stops progressing in the medieval era.

Magic is SUPPOSEDLY suppose to be a rare thing. Mechanically, its not. A majority of the classes have access to spells and spell casting and magical items are available in nearly everywhere. But thematically, people are suppose to be afraid of magic because it is weird and they don't understand and people keep summoning demons and zombies with it. Towns usually only have one or two NPCs that can provide magical services and the townsfolk usually begrudgingly purchase it from them.

Second, magic is expensive. A spell cost Caster level × spell level × 10 gp. Most NPCs are paid in Copper or Silver (assuming they aren't serfs or slaves and are actually paid for their services) and they would have to save up for quite a while before buying a level 1 spell. Magical items aren't even on the table for them. (On a side note, in most towns, I assume a magical item merchant only has to sell one magic item a year to pay their rent). Nobles and (successful) adventurers can afford these services, but the vast majority of people that inhabit most settings can not. It would make sense that lesser folk would look for cheaper alternatives. I'm sure there is a spell that will collect food from a field, but it is probably much cheaper to buy some farm tools and a laborer or two than it is to hire a wizard.
(I am aware that in Golarian, Firearms are stupidly expensive, which restricts their use.)

And don't forget about the surface gnomes. these little guys are responsible for the majority of golorians advanced(or at least semi- advanced) technology(not counting the crashed space ship in numereia). the only downside with this technology is its experimental nature. most of this technology is either difficult to use, prone to failure, or is just difficult to get or spread information about.

Same is true with alchemist innovations. while alchemists can create some of the most intriguing and powerful concoctions/inventions on the mundane side of wizards, these concoctions have often numerous experimental ingredients, have a fairly chance of failure(among the majority of the normal population), and the amount of distance between skilled alchemists and each others ideas is often vast.

Plus, i think the main reason for the industrial revolution in our world was down to the Renaissance and the sudden ease of which ideas and theories could be spread among the average population. because the distances are so vast on Golorian and the average persons education varies from state to state, and location to location, there are entire regions of golorian that are completely ignorant to the wider world they live within.


Tech evolves because everyone - anyone - can do it. Firearms exist and evolve for the same reason - they hit harder (well, they're supposed to), at a greater range, etc. and here's the kicker - it don't take thirty years to get good. Old Welsh saying: 'To develop a good longbowman, start with his grandfather.' You don't need that for firearms; two hours max and the guy knows the basics. Which is why you need a reason for firearms not to have taken over the world, per se.

Hence the above statements.

This is not, however, the thrust of the thread. I'm looking for help developing the stats for the firearms in question, not debate the reason for their existence or lack thereof ...


In a magical world, there must be a reason that firearms have both existed for an extended period of time and have not come to dominate the battlefield. Simply put, magic becomes that reason; when alchemists can mix a few innocuous ingredients carried upon their person into highly effective hand-grenades, gunpowder might have a similar high level of volatility - not necessarily in its static existence (i.e. sitting quietly), but in its active use. As well, high-end firearms - modern and near-modern weaponry - must be reviewed and altered to bring to fruition their extraordinary capacity for dealing out damage, while simultaneously acknowledging their low cost.

For the world in which my Homecoming campaign takes place, I am experimenting with this redefinition - I admittedly have no gun-wielding maniac at this time, but hey, thought exercise. As I figure it, the work required must focus primarily on five areas: Tech Class, Misfire Chance, Firing Speed, Weapon Damage, and Costs.

Tech Class

Pathfinder uses two Tech Classes of firearms: early and advanced. This is a gross oversimplification of firearms, so this revision uses five Tech Classes, roughly based on their firing methodology, which is essentially the benchmark of their advancement:


  • Primitive (TL 1): Weapons using flash-pan, wheel-lock, matchlock, and similar methods to fire the charge. Slow to load and fire, highly vulnerable to inclement weather.
  • Simple (TL 2): Primarily flintlock weapons; faster to load, don't need already-burning 'matches', but still vulnerable to weather.
  • Developed (TL 3): Percussion cap weapons, whether external brass-cap-on-nipple or needle-fired integral-paper-cartridge; alchemical cartridges are these latter ones, and the development of the paper percussion cap leads to nitrated cartridges for percussion revolvers, which are still front-loaded (just at the cylinder). This does eventually lead to weapons designed to be loaded at the breech (back of the barrel) instead of the muzzle (front of the rifle) - which, let me tell you, results in a lot faster firing rate.
  • Advanced (TL 4): Pin-fire and rim-fire metal cartridges, all breech-loads; the latter are an evolution of the former, which were chancy with an exposed firing pin. Once rim-fire was developed, they could move the firing pin from the bullet to the hammer.
  • Modern (TL 5): Center-fire cartridges as well as automatic and semi-automatic weapons, which use the recoil from firing to do various things - but basically means most of the guns we know today. (Most modern revolvers are double-action, meaning that pulling the trigger cocks the weapon, rotates the cylinder, AND fires the gun. Single-action revolvers are only Advanced, in this set-up.)

These five definitions are the framework of all other modifications to the system.

Development Stage

With the five Tech Classes in mind, a GM needs to decide what level of gunplay he wants in his campaign. Working off the five options found in Ultimate Combat (and using their feat requirements, removal, and class- and archetype-removal as appropriate), we come up with five Development Stages:

  • "No Guns" (DS 0): feats only, no classes, must develop weapons first - if the GM allows it.
  • "Very Rare Guns" (DS 1): start with primitive firearms. Firearm use requires exotic weapon proficiency for each weapon.
  • "Emerging Guns" (DS 2): start with simple firearms. Firearm use requires martial weapon proficiency for some weapons, exotic weapon proficiency for others.
  • "Commonplace Guns" (DS 3): start with developed firearms.
  • "Guns Everywhere" (DS 4): start with advanced firearms.

Depending on the Development Stage, firearms of progressively advanced Tech Levels require a certain level of skill - character level - to use. Loading and firing a weapon with a Tech Level higher than your campaign's Development Stage increases your chances of misfire and your attack bonus penalties. This penalty is half the difference between the required level and the character's level, round up.

. . . . TL 1 . | . TL 2 . | . TL 3 . | . TL 4 . | . TL 5 .
DS 0 . . 6 . . | . 12 . | . . 18 . .|. . N/A . | . N/A .
DS 1 . . -- . .|. . 6 . .| . . 12 . . |. . 18 . .| . N/A .
DS 2 . . -- . .|. . -- . .|. . . 6 . . .|. . 12 . .| . 18 .
DS 3 . . -- . .|. . -- . .|. . . -- . . .|. . 6 . . | . 12 .
DS 4 . . -- . .|. . -- . .|. . . -- . . .|. . -- . .|. . 6 . .

N/A - A firearm of this Tech Level cannot be developed in the campaign.
-- - Individuals have no character-level penalties when using this Tech Level of weapon.

Example #1:

In an Emerging Guns campaign, a 1st level character might possess and fire a Simple firearm with no issues beyond potential proficiency and grit penalties (found later in this document). If he picked up a Developed firearm, however, he would have additional Attack and Misfire penalties equal to (6 - 1 = 5 / 2 = 2.5, round up: 3) a -3 to his Attack Bonus and an increase in his Misfire Chance by 3. Should he discover a Modern firearm, he would receive (18 - 1 = 17 / 2 = 8.5, round up: 9) a -9 to his Attack Bonus and an increase to his chances for the weapon to Misfire by 9.
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Attack Bonus and Misfire Chance

In this revision, using firearms is dangerous - as in REALLY dangerous - and difficult to manage properly. Proficiency is not only a matter of training, but also a matter of possessing the knack for using weapons, as defined by Grit. These penalties apply to all gunpowder-using weapons including heavy and siege weapons. So get your proficiencies and some Grit if you wanna fire them heavy cannon.

An individual who possessess neither proficiency nor Grit receives a -8 to his attack roll, and doubles the weapon's base misfire chance. This doubling occurs before nonproficiency loading or Tech Level / Development Stage penalties; those are added afterwards.
An individual who possesses proficiency but does not have Grit receives a -4 to his attack roll, and doubles the weapon's base misfire chance as above. As she is proficient in the weapon, she will not receive the standard nonproficiency loader misfire increase of 4, but may receive the Tech Level / Development Stage penalties as appropriate to her character level.

Misfire chances are standardized for each Tech Level of firearm. If a misfire threatens, a confirmation is rolled to see what sort of misfire it is; advanced TL weapons not only possess lower misfire chances, but also milder consequences.

TL 1 - Primitive:
TL 1: Primitive
Misfire: 3
Confirmation Roll:
  • 1-5: Explode
  • 6-10: Squib Load
  • 11-15: Slow Burn
  • 16-20: Buildup

TL 2 - Simple:

TL 2: Simple
Misfire: 2
Confirmation Roll:
  • 1: Explode
  • 2-5: Squib Load
  • 6-10: Slow Burn
  • 11-20: Buildup

TL 3 - Developed:

TL 3: Developed
Misfire: 1
Confirmation Roll:
  • 1-2: Squib Load
  • [b]3-6: Slow Burn
  • [b]7-20: Buildup

TL 4 - Advanced:

[b]TL 4:
Advanced
Misfire: 1
Confirmation Roll:
  • 1: Squib
  • 2: Feed Jam
  • 3: Dud
  • 4: Hang Fire

TL 5 - Modern:

TL 5: Modern
Misfire: 1*
Confirmation Roll:
  • 1: Feed Jam
  • 2: Dud
  • 3: Hang Fire


* - A modern firearm in the hands of a character who possesses levels sufficient to use it without TL/DS penalty threatens a misfire on a natural 1, which threat must again roll a 1 before a confirmation roll is needed. Even then, the weapon only misfires on a 1-3. This results in a misfire chance of roughly 1 in 2666. If, however, there is any TL/DS character level penalty, the character uses the Advanced tech level misfire rules.

Anything above the highest value (e.g. 4 for Advance, 3 for Modern) is a bullet dodged; no actual misfire takes place. Previously published class abilities, feats, traits, competencies, and consequences that increase or decrease Misfire chances increase or decrease those chances by the published amount. They also increase or reduce (as appropriate) the worst consequence of confirmation roll by the same amount, keeping the spead of other categories, but with a minimum spread for any category of 1.

Example #2:
Ludo, a non-proficient individual without Grit in a DS 2 campaign, attempts to load and fire a primitive firearm. He first doubles the weapon's base misfire chance (3 to 6). He then adds in his non-proficiency loading penalty (+4), for a misfire chance of 10. Unsurprisingly, he misfires. While fortunately the base misfire chance does not apply, the non-proficiency loading penalty does apply. His chances are therefore 1-9: Explode, 10-14: Squib, 15-19: Slow Burn, 20: Buildup. Fortunately, he rolls a 12, and the gunpowder flares weakly, lodging the bullet in the barrel of the gun.
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Example #3:
Hotchkiss, a level 3 pistolero gunslinger in the same campaign, is thinking himself a kick-ass gunfighter - especially because his GM has dropped a fully-loaded Glock 19 in his lap. Instead of trying to figure out the weapon, he brings to the shooting range and squeezes one off. As a pistolero, Hotchkiss is proficient with all pistols, so the Glock's base misfire chance remains a 1, though it no longer possesses the modern firearm 'second threat' defense, instead using the Advanced firearm misfire chances. There is a character level penalty as well - 18 - 3 = 15 / 2 = 7.5, rounded up = 8. The Glock 19 will now misfire on a roll of 9 or less. Similarly, his confirmation rolls become 1-9: Squib, 10: Feed Jam, 11: Dud, and 12: Hang Fire.
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Misfire Explanations:

Buildup: Gunpowder residue is building up in the barrel. Any attacks made with the firearm suffer a –2 penalty on attack and damage rolls. Such weapons only score a critical hit on a natural 20 and only deal ×2 damage on a confirmed critical hit. The weapon receives a Misfire value increase of 4; this does not increase its base (pre-Gritless) value. If the weapon misfires, use the same misfire confirmation rules but the following table to determine what occurs on a misfire with a firearm suffering from Buildup:

TL 1 - Primitive:

TL 1: Primitive
Buildup Misfire Roll:
  • 1-10: Explode
  • 11-20: Squib

TL 2 - Simple:

TL 2: Simple
Buildup Misfire Roll:
  • 1-5: Explode
  • 6-20: Squib

TL 3 - Developed:

TL 3: Developed
Buildup Misfire Roll:
  • 1: Explode
  • 2-20: Squib

Hang Fire: The gunpowder's initial burn is more slow than expected, but the weapon is still live; treat as an action delayed by 1d20 initiative points. If this delay takes it into the next round, the gunpowder burns out; it can then (but only then) be treated as a dud. If the character attempts to clear the hang-fire before it either fires on its own or burns out, they will automatically be hit by the firearm, receiving the weapon's maximum damage. If they attempt to clear a hang fire in an Advanced or Modern firearm, the weapon will additionally receive the Broken condition as the bullet fires during extraction.

Squib Load: The gunpowder burns poorly or erratically, lodging the bullet inside the barrel of the weapon. The weapon must be cleared (two full-round actions) and reloaded before it can be fired again. Advanced firearms (and Modern firearms in the hands of insufficiently-powerful characters) suffer a special danger with squib load misfires; they must make a DC 20 Perception check to notice that the round did not exit the weapon. No feat or class ability will enable the character to Take 10 on this check while in combat; it must be rolled. Only characters with Grit may dodge the bullet by spending 3 Grit to automatically succeed.
Characters who fail at this check will not notice that the barrel is blocked. A firearm discharged again while experiencing a squib load misfire will automatically Explode.

Explode: The gunpowder burns too fast, rupturing the weapon. Use standard Pathfinder rules for firearm explosions.

Dud: The gunpowder fails to burn at all. The weapon must be unloaded and reloaded before it can be fired again. For Primitive, Simple, and Developed firearms, this is a full-round action; for Advanced firearms this is a simple action; for Modern firearms this is a move-equivalent action.

Feed Jam: Ahh, First World problems. The bullet or cartridge enters or exists the weapon's firing chamber incorrectly. The weapon must be cleared (a full-round action) and another round chambered before the weapon can be fired.

Grit Feat Revision: Quick Clear (Ex): At 1st level, as a standard action, the gunslinger can remove the Buildup condition from a single firearm. The gunslinger must have at least 1 grit point to perform this deed. Alternatively, if the gunslinger spends 1 grit point to perform this deed, she can perform quick clear as a move-equivalent action instead of a standard action. For other misfire results, the gunslinger can reduce the time taken by one level (two full-round actions to one, a full-round action to a standard action, standard to move, move to swift, swift to free), or by two levels by spending 1 grit point.

Scatter Special Ability Revision: When firing a scatter shot weapon, make an initial misfire roll. If a misfire is not indicated, proceed with attacking as normal. If a scatter weapon explodes on a misfire, it deals triple its damage to all creatures within the misfire radius.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I like the spirit, yet be careful. Some don't like firearms at all in their fantasy campaign. Others like it as a flavor option, yet not the base assumption. In other words, it is rare and expensive.

It is also possible to overdo rules to simulate firearms. Many things just don't make sense if you look at RAW. Why does a PC gain hundreds of hit points as they fight more nasty things? How can a 20th level character survive a full dunking in lava? That's instant death in our world. Just how fast can a PC reload crossbows or flintlocks per the game?

Palladium had a special firearms supplement at one time. Most people skipped it, even though it was highly detailed. The problem was that the pain and shock rules meant anyone hit from firearms was likely to drop for at least ten combat rounds from pain and shock. This was if they actually succeeded at a save against pain.

In other words, reality might not be that fun in this case.


Thank you for your cautions. None of them are valid. If you have actual suggestions or commentary, feel free to participate.


Oops, got confused and thought I was posting in the thread How do you keep a fantasy setting from a technological explosion?, but this is relevant here, so leaving in part of the cross-post.

For inhibiting non-Magitech technological development, here are a couple of ideas:

1. Specific to firearms and explosives: If macroscopic creatures can learn to use magic, why not microorganisms? Specifically, a certain type of inconspicuous but fairly common mold has evolved (or been engineered) to make a living eating high-energy compounds even in concentrated and normally highly toxic form, and has also evolved (or been engineered) to go ethereal/incorporeal to get through things like gun cartridge casings. Moreover, once it consumes enough of the explosive that it runs out of some critical nutrient, it sporulates and then detonates the remaining explosive to provide the energy for dispersing its (highly fire-resistant) spores.

2 & 3: Inhibiting non-firearm non-Magitech technology: See [ulr=http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t6pj&page=2?How-do-you-keep-a-fantasy-setting-from-a#86]here[/url].


... interesting, but again, I don't think it's necessarily apropos to the topic at hand, which is 'let's revise' instead of 'let's figure out why not.'

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