A guy in our PFS group claims Gloves of Reconnaissance creates a window only between your hands. Also, allows bad guys to see you back through the 'window'.
This is obviously wrong, but he's using the "since it doesn't say it doesn't, than it creates the two-way window" argument.
I know he's wrong, but he won't accept that.
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our group calls these the gloves of DM aggro.
He also is saying since it's Clairvoyance based, the creature's on the other side of the wall get a chance to see the scrying sensor.
Lol!
Later, he claimed it didn't work like the window between the hands. I tried to explain that the thing doesn't say anything about a scrying sensor. But he claimed that because it's Clairvoyance based, it does.
I basically stopped arguing, since he wouldn't admit the gloves don't work like that.
Edit: the VC at the table didn't take sides.
I hate playing PFS where DMs make up rules. If a DM presents a rule that players disagree with it is up to the players to prove the DM wrong. Now if you present the text and he decides to interject extra verbiage then they are cheating
Being a VC, or having one thre does not promise fairness. I had a VC at gencon tell me drag rules work different when regards to PCs vs monsters.
The VC was running it, but it was another player that I was debating the rules with
Well what did the DM rule?
Because some fellow at a table makign up the rules should have no bearing.
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He also is saying since it's Clairvoyance based, the creature's on the other side of the wall get a chance to see the scrying sensor.
That might actually be reasonable. I will want to review the rules when I am not on my phone.
At very least it should set off "detect scrying.". (matters to me because my mage has it as a specialized school spell. )
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Yeah, double checked.
The gloves are a divination (scrying) effect. The rule for divination (scrying) says it creates a sensor. The perception DC to detect the sensor should be (edited) DC 23 I believe.
Interestingly, that means the gloves work even while you are blind. So if you are blinded, grab a door, activate your glove, now you aren't blind, and you have a tower shield. And a lot of other problems.
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Now that I am back on my computer:
Divination spells enable you to learn secrets long forgotten, predict the future, find hidden things, and foil deceptive spells.
Many divination spells have cone-shaped areas. These move with you and extend in the direction you choose. The cone defines the area that you can sweep each round. If you study the same area for multiple rounds, you can often gain additional information, as noted in the descriptive text for the spell.
Scrying: A scrying spell creates an invisible magical sensor that sends you information. Unless noted otherwise, the sensor has the same powers of sensory acuity that you possess. This level of acuity includes any spells or effects that target you, but not spells or effects that emanate from you. The sensor, however, is treated as a separate, independent sensory organ of yours, and thus functions normally even if you have been blinded or deafened, or otherwise suffered sensory impairment.
A creature can notice the sensor by making a Perception check with a DC 20 + the spell level. The sensor can be dispelled as if it were an active spell.
Lead sheeting or magical protection blocks a scrying spell, and you sense that the spell is blocked.
Clairvoyance/Clairaudience is defined as "Divination(scrying)" It even mentions that it has a sensor
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Where does it say that these gloves are a "Divination (scrying)" effect? Yes, clairaudience/clairvoyance is a construction requirement for their crafting, but does that mean that the gloves function as that spell?
The text from the PRD quoted by FLite regarding divination spells and scrying spells is just that. An explanation of how those types of spells function. The gloves are not a spell and I would rule they function exactly as described:
Each of these fingerless worked leather gloves look as though they have seen heavy use, and often bear the stains or scent of grass or wet mud. On command, the wearer can use the gloves to see and hear though solid material no more than 15 feet thick by placing both hands on that material. The gloves can be used for 10 rounds each day. The rounds need not be consecutive.
That description makes no mention that the gloves function as any spell, that they're a divination (scrying) effect, or that anything less than 15 feet thick blocks their use.
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Then what sort of effect do you think they are?
They let you see somewhere else and require a divination (scrying) spell to create. That sounds like a scrying effect to me.
Items that alter your shape, whether they say "function as spell X" or not all use the general rules for polymorph. (If your overall body shape changes, your weapons merge with you, only one polymorph at a time, etc.) Because those are the rules that govern all polymorph magic.
(Fundamentally, this may be the same "Expect Table Variation" situation as sleeves of many garments. Which states that it is an illusion effect, but a lot of people chose to treat it as a transmutation.)
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Where does it say that these gloves are a "Divination (scrying)" effect? Yes, clairaudience/clairvoyance is a construction requirement for their crafting, but does that mean that the gloves function as that spell?
The text from the PRD quoted by FLite regarding divination spells and scrying spells is just that. An explanation of how those types of spells function. The gloves are not a spell and I would rule they function exactly as described:
Each of these fingerless worked leather gloves look as though they have seen heavy use, and often bear the stains or scent of grass or wet mud. On command, the wearer can use the gloves to see and hear though solid material no more than 15 feet thick by placing both hands on that material. The gloves can be used for 10 rounds each day. The rounds need not be consecutive.That description makes no mention that the gloves function as any spell, that they're a divination (scrying) effect, or that anything less than 15 feet thick blocks their use.to say that Glove of Reconnaissance create a sensor would be like saying Gloves of Arrow Snaring give immunity to magic missile spells because they need the spell shield when created...
No, it's like arguing that Gloves of Arrow Snaring give immunity to magic missile spells because they create an abjuration effect and all abjuration effects make you immune to magic missile. (Which would be a decent arguement if abjuration effect did make you immune to magic missile, which they don't)
The things really are seriously under priced for what they do.
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There is actually a spell out there that lets you see through a wall without leaving a scrying sensor out there.
See through stone, a level 4 druid spell.
If that were the effect they were going for, the gloves would need to be at least caster level 7, and much more expensive.
So you are trying to upgrade the effect of the gloves from a once a day casting of a weakened version of a 3rd level spell, to a once a day casting of the full version of a 4th level spell for just 2000 gp.
Are you *trying* to get their price errataed?
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Sorry, reply works very badly on this phone.
Nosig, they would need to be higher caster level and a higher price because if they work as you say, they would be replicating a 4th level druid spell, not a third level spell with a range reduction, a specific target placement, and a specific direction.
You want them to have all the upsides of the 4th level spell (plus the ability to see through material other than stone, but I'll be generous and chuck that in for free) but keep the same price of a massively limited 3rd level spell.
No, it's like arguing that Gloves of Arrow Snaring give immunity to magic missile spells because they create an abjuration effect and all abjuration effects make you immune to magic missile. (Which would be a decent arguement if abjuration effect did make you immune to magic missile, which they don't)Where does it say that these gloves are a "Divination (scrying)" effect? Yes, clairaudience/clairvoyance is a construction requirement for their crafting, but does that mean that the gloves function as that spell?
The text from the PRD quoted by FLite regarding divination spells and scrying spells is just that. An explanation of how those types of spells function. The gloves are not a spell and I would rule they function exactly as described:
Each of these fingerless worked leather gloves look as though they have seen heavy use, and often bear the stains or scent of grass or wet mud. On command, the wearer can use the gloves to see and hear though solid material no more than 15 feet thick by placing both hands on that material. The gloves can be used for 10 rounds each day. The rounds need not be consecutive.That description makes no mention that the gloves function as any spell, that they're a divination (scrying) effect, or that anything less than 15 feet thick blocks their use.to say that Glove of Reconnaissance create a sensor would be like saying Gloves of Arrow Snaring give immunity to magic missile spells because they need the spell shield when created...
Lucky that all divination effects don't require a magical sensor then, isn't it!
+1 for no sensor. Making inference for what is not there is a dangerous game in pathfinder. Either the effect is as clairvoyance, and thus a scrying effect, or it is not. There is no text to indicate it is replicating the effects of a clairvoyance spell, so it doesn't -- it is a unique, separate, effect. The spell used in construction is irrelevant to the final workings of the item.
My bard (now retired) had a pair of these. The main limitation he had was light; being able to see through a wall doesn't put light sources on the other side of it. I ended up temporarily loaning them out to folks with darkvision.
In any case, I never ran into any GM who applied the scrying sensor or related effects to it. Mostly they treated it like a one-way hole in the wall (or whatever) between his hands.
Table variation. :)
I think that he sees the clairvoyance spell and focuses only on that, that's where he's coming from.
I see that as part of the construction, but not part of the effect item.
Sent the link to the VC, now he'll understand where each of us is coming from and who is right and who is wrong
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Sorry, reply works very badly on this phone.
Nosig, they would need to be higher caster level and a higher price because if they work as you say, they would be replicating a 4th level druid spell, not a third level spell with a range reduction, a specific target placement, and a specific direction.
You want them to have all the upsides of the 4th level spell (plus the ability to see through material other than stone, but I'll be generous and chuck that in for free) but keep the same price of a massively limited 3rd level spell.
So, does that mean that adding the Merciful enhancement to a weapon makes it do 1d8+CL (max 5) healing instead of making all damage non-lethal and adding 1d6 damage to the total when active? After all, it uses CLW as the spell requirement.
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The biggest restriction I see comes from the inability to stack similar effects.
Consequently, one cannot use clairaudience-clairvoyance while also using Gloves of Reconnaissance the same way that a person can't use a Muleback Cords and expect it to stack with the spell bull strength, its respective crafting requirement.
Under the effects of the cords and the spell, one would get the carrying capacity of whichever gave the greatest benefit, not both.
It seems that each power imbedded in the magic item is of that spells abilities or less, so as to serve as a cost/game balance tool. Equal or less, but never completely different.
I always figured that the spell(s) at the core of each magic item were also there to more easily determine what items would become susceptible to what countermeasures. If we are throwing this out as a useful guideline, all we can do is expect more table variation in PFS. Since you're not playing PFS, its whatever your GM says (plus whatever successful bribery/blackmail you can produce).
^^^ this
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The construction requirements have no bearing on the categorization of the actual power(s) of an item, unless it says otherwise. These gloves provide a school-less magical effect which allows you to see and hear through solid material of up to 15'.
Actually the gloves have an aura of divination magic to them, so I wouldn't go so far as to call them schoolless.
But it doesn't say anything about subschool, sensors or "like the spell" or something like that, so saying it replicates Claurvoyance is perhaps a bit of a leap.
Captain, you're overthinking it.
You can safely ignore the construction line of a magic item unless you're actually crafting it.
Clair can be used at the same time as the Gloves (although I don't think this would be useful). You can use Mule Cords and Bull Strength at the same time.
Unless it says it functions as a specific spell, then the effect is unique to that item and follows the normal stacking rules for distinct effects.
/this.
An item only functions as it is written that it functions. Construction requirements are only relevant when actually constructing it. And for nothing else relevant ever.
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Indeed. If a magic item makes reference to spell, in it's description, like "function as", then you would refer to the spell.
Magic Item effects to not count as, or function as, the spell/s used in their creation, unless they state they do.
This is, and must be true.
Many magic items function in way no spell does. This is on purpose. Saying that magic items can have effects that directly mimic the spells used in their construction, destroys the use and function of many, many, magic items.
If you decide that you can look past the rules written, and have all magic items function only as their prerequisite spells for crafting them, then Potions, Scrolls, and Wands are the only items ever worth getting.
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Sigh. People are seriously misreading my statements.
I am not saying that the spell cited determines the effect of the item.
I am saying in most cases the spell cited implies the school and subschool of the item, and therefore the *General rules* for that school and subschool apply. (Thus my reference above to Sleeves of Many Garments, which spawned a huge thread on here a while back about whether it's effect is illuion or transmutation)
I am also making the (possibly unfounded) assertion that an item's price should bear at least a passing resemblance to it's utility.
Arguing that a 2000 gp, CL 3 item gives you the effect of a 4th level spell cast at CL 15 once a day is absurd.