Does ammunition fired from a magical projectile weapon gain the benefits of the weapons magical enhancement or abilities?


Rules Questions

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Raisse wrote:
How does this apply to weapons with endless ammunition? Does that ammunition always count as magic and no higher enhancement?

You'll get the enhancement bonus of the bow towards attack and damage, but it will only overcome DR/Magic. However, if it's an +1 Axiomatic/Lawful/Holy/etc Endless Ammunition bow. Those weapon qualities would be transferred to the ammo.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Chess Pwn wrote:

Wow, did not see that one coming. So bows can never bypass DR, only arrows.

EDIT: @James Risner Did you predict this one?

To my knowledge I never post a prediction on this. It makes sense as otherwise you rare need magic arrows. But without a time machine I can't know how I'd predict.


A few thoughts:

(1) Kudos to Tels for spotting this. That's some excellent rules research. I’m impressed.

(2) A +x bow now isn’t any more effective than a bow with +x from Greater Magic Weapon so archers with access to GMW are now incentivized to spend money on Special Abilities rather than Enhancement Bonuses (beyond the necessary +1).

(3) Ammunition with +2 or higher Enhancement Bonuses just got relatively more valuable.

(4) Class Abilities that let you add Enhancement Bonuses directly to ammunition, like the Arcane Duelist Bard’s Bladethirst/Mass Bladethirst ability or the Spell Warrior Skald’s Enhance Weapons ability, just got more valuable.


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I know of at least one Zen archer in PFS that is going to be pissed that his +5 bow that he saved up for no longer bypasses DR.


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N N 959 wrote:


The real "gain" is that specialty arrows will no longer automatically overcome cold/silver/adamantine/alignment restrictions purely on weapon (bow, crossbow, firearm) enhancement. I don't play enough high level Pathfinder to know what the substantive impact is.

If clustered shots is banned: archery is now the worst fighting style past, level 12? You're going to lose roughly 10+ damage per shot on everything.

If clustered shots is not banned: no change. Only slightly less damage overall.


Why would clustered shot be banned?

Scarab Sages

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Chess Pwn wrote:
I know of at least one Zen archer in PFS that is going to be pissed that his +5 bow that he saved up for no longer bypasses DR.

Honestly, I think this FAQ is worth an item buyback in PFS.

Scarab Sages

So, what happens now if you fire a +3 arrow at a werewolf from a +4 bow?


The arrow has +3 enhancement, so it'll pierce silver DR. Just not adamantine.

Scarab Sages

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Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
The arrow has +3 enhancement, so it'll pierce silver DR. Just not adamantine.

The arrow has a +4 enhancement. The +3 enhancement is treated as if it does not exist as it does not apply.

CRB pg 468 wrote:
"The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies."


So you are suggesting the +4 enhancement bonus cancels out +3 but because the enhancement bonus of the bow does nothing for DR it means the arrow doesn't pierce the DR? That is answered in the FAQ:

Quote:
Archers and other such characters can buy various sorts of ammunition or ammunition with a high enhancement bonus to overcome the various types of damage reduction.

The ammunition is considered separately when determining DR if this is anything to go by.

Scarab Sages

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Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:

So you are suggesting the +4 enhancement bonus cancels out +3 but because the enhancement bonus of the bow does nothing for DR it means the arrow doesn't pierce the DR? That is answered in the FAQ:

Quote:
Archers and other such characters can buy various sorts of ammunition or ammunition with a high enhancement bonus to overcome the various types of damage reduction.
The ammunition is considered separately when determining DR if this is anything to go by.

That covers having a +1 bow and a +3 arrow. Not the reverse. They did not change how enhancement bonus stacking works.


To expand and because I am in my phone and editing is haaaaard:

Basically bow enhancement bonus doesn't even cancel out arrow enhancement bonuses anymore since seemingly it only acts as a temporary boost. You still factor in the arrow used to deliver the attack. While obviously enhancement bonuses don't stack and this hasn't changed, bows don't cancel out their arrow bonus, it just supercedes it as per the enhancement rules. That's still a +3 arrow. The attack is just at +4, though not for DR.

Godh this is now more confusinh than before...


This FAQ is expicitly telling you 'Stop factoring your bow bonus for DR, period, only consider your arrows, which is the most important part'. This is clearly an exception to how this works normally. It isn't particularly difficult to purchase special material arrows, mind you, so this is mostly being pedantic.


Lorewalker wrote:
Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
The arrow has +3 enhancement, so it'll pierce silver DR. Just not adamantine.

The arrow has a +4 enhancement. The +3 enhancement is treated as if it does not exist as it does not apply.

CRB pg 468 wrote:
"The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies."

My thought is that they don't stack, but they do overlap. So the DR effects of the +3 Enhancement Bonus would still apply even though its Enhancement Bonus isn't applied to the attack roll or to damage.

Scarab Sages

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Gisher wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:
Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
The arrow has +3 enhancement, so it'll pierce silver DR. Just not adamantine.

The arrow has a +4 enhancement. The +3 enhancement is treated as if it does not exist as it does not apply.

CRB pg 468 wrote:
"The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies."
My thought is that they don't stack, but they do overlap. So the DR effects of the +3 Enhancement Bonus would still apply even though its Enhancement Bonus isn't applied to the attack roll or to damage.

It would be nice if we had a rule that said that, yes. Instead the only relevant rule states that only the higher enhancement bonus applies. DR piercing is a function of the enhancement bonus.

This is the same sort of idea with polymorph effects. If you are in wildshape but then cast alter self only one of those effects apply. You don't get partial benefit.


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KingOfAnything wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
It just seems to add more if/then complications to the rules without any gain as far as I can see.

I thought it would reduce the condition block.

GM: (thinks) Monster has DR 5/cold iron. What kind of arrows are you using?

Player: " +3, so magic cold iron silver"


Lorewalker wrote:
Gisher wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:
Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
The arrow has +3 enhancement, so it'll pierce silver DR. Just not adamantine.

The arrow has a +4 enhancement. The +3 enhancement is treated as if it does not exist as it does not apply.

CRB pg 468 wrote:
"The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies."
My thought is that they don't stack, but they do overlap. So the DR effects of the +3 Enhancement Bonus would still apply even though its Enhancement Bonus isn't applied to the attack roll or to damage.

It would be nice if we had a rule that said that, yes. Instead the only relevant rule states that only the higher enhancement bonus applies. DR piercing is a function of the enhancement bonus.

...

I've always treated a +3 weapon with +4 GMW cast on it as if it is +4 for purposes of attack rolls and damage but +3 for purposes of overcoming DR. A clarification that addresses these situations in general would be nice.


Wow, I was with the vast majority that didn't see this ruling going this way. Well, buying mundane special arrows or weapon blanches will still be my answer.


Lorewalker wrote:


It would be nice if we had a rule that said that, yes. Instead the only relevant rule states that only the higher enhancement bonus applies. DR piercing is a function of the enhancement bonus.

This is the same sort of idea with polymorph effects. If you are in wildshape but then cast alter self only one of those effects apply. You don't get partial benefit.

Except we have a FAQ that outlined that this is not the case with bows. Which explicitly stated higher enhancement ammunition can help bypass DR. What you're saying is the general rule, but the FAQ is telling you a specific rule for bow enhancement which seems to not impact DR, and that you completely ignore it and consider the ammo instead. Don't ignore one half of the FAQ to focus on the other.


Jack Rift wrote:
Wow, I was with the vast majority that didn't see this ruling going this way. Well, buying mundane special arrows or weapon blanches will still be my answer.

Yeah, I figured it was mostly down to hold over text from 3.5, hence why the Rules were unclear. I could easily have seen it going either way and would have been happy with either result.

On one side, it frees up the clutter of bookkeeping and minimizes confusion.

On the other side, it nerfs archers in a way that doesn't totally negate their contribution (i.e. wind wall, fickle winds and so on).

Scarab Sages

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Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:


It would be nice if we had a rule that said that, yes. Instead the only relevant rule states that only the higher enhancement bonus applies. DR piercing is a function of the enhancement bonus.

This is the same sort of idea with polymorph effects. If you are in wildshape but then cast alter self only one of those effects apply. You don't get partial benefit.

Except we have a FAQ that outlined that this is not the case with bows. Which explicitly stated higher enhancement ammunition can help bypass DR. What you're saying is the general rule, but the FAQ is telling you a specific rule for bow enhancement which seems to not impact DR, and that you completely ignore it and consider the ammo instead. Don't ignore one half of the FAQ to focus on the other.
FAQ wrote:

Magic Ranged Weapons and Ammunition: When a ranged weapon shares its enhancement bonus with its ammunition, does this count as “true” enhancement bonus or more like a temporary bonus like greater magic weapon? In other words, does the shared enhancement bonus allow the arrow to bypass damage reduction as if it was cold iron, silver, adamantine, and aligned?

No, other than the ways indicated in the Core Rulebook (if the ranged weapon is at least +1, they count as magic, and if the ranged weapon is aligned they count as that alignment as well) the enhancement bonus granted to ammunition from the ranged weapon doesn’t help them overcome the other types of damage reduction. Archers and other such characters can buy various sorts of ammunition or ammunition with a high enhancement bonus to overcome the various types of damage reduction.

Where does the bold section say that both enhancement bonuses now apply instead of only one?

The FAQ does state that arrows with an enhancement bonus not granted by a bow still pierce DR... but it doesn't say that if its enhancement bonus does not apply that you can still get partial benefit.

The italic part shows that the enhancement bonus is still granted to the arrow.

So, you have an arrow with two enhancement bonuses but which have separate effects. And a rule that says that only one applies, the higher one. And no rule that disagrees with that statement.


If that was the case, then why doesn't it apply against DR? Can an arrow not exist as a +3 arrow and deliver an attack with a +4 from a bow?

The properties of magical arrows do not cease to exist in the abstraction of the rules, it's just that the rules apply higher bonuses over lower ones. Not cancelling them out, just superceding them.

Additionally, you do add magical arrow special qualities to attacks with magical bows regardless if the numeral bonuses are lower or higher (up to +10). If a +2 bow lacks ghost touch but the arrows themselves are +1 ghost touch arrows, they confer their ghost touch property to the attack. The rules for enhancements providing partial benefits do work like this already, but only the highest numeral bonus applies. Any properties of the arrow or bow apply. In this case, enhancements from a bow do not apply for DR. But arrows do, so that applies partially, even if that arrow has a lower numeral bonus.

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

A +3 arrow is still a +3 arrow. That doesn't change if you get a +4 bonus from a bow.

Like, if I have a belt of giant strength, my carrying capacity doesn't go down if the Druid casts bull's strength on me.

Scarab Sages

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Garbage-Tier Waifu wrote:

If that was the case, then why doesn't it apply against DR? Can an arrow not exist as a +3 arrow and deliver an attack with a +4 from a bow?

The properties of magical arrows do not cease to exist in the abstraction of the rules, it's just that the rules apply higher bonuses over lower ones. Not cancelling them out, just superceding them.

Additionally, you do add magical arrow special qualities to attacks with magical bows regardless if the numeral bonuses are lower or higher (up to +10). If a +2 bow lacks ghost touch but the arrows themselves are +1 ghost touch arrows, they confer their ghost touch property to the attack. The rules for enhancements providing partial benefits do work like this already, but only the highest numeral bonus applies. Any properties of the arrow or bow apply. In this case, enhancements from a bow do not apply for DR. But arrows do, so that applies partially, even if that arrow has a lower numeral bonus.

No, the rules do not allow partial benefit from non-stacking bonuses.

What you are talking about is not an enhancement bonus. Frost is not an enhancement bonus. Only the +1, +2...etc is the enhancement bonus.

Enhancement bonuses do not stack and only one is applied. Explicit fact.

DR piercing is a function of the enhancement bonus. Thus if the enhancement bonus is not applied... neither is the DR piercing.

Again, I would like the game to work as you suggest with this change. But the rules simply do not support it. Thus why I would like the rules to change to support it.


Maybe someone should got ask Mark if the PDT can do a quick follow up response, or an edit to the original FAQ to clarify how magical ammo interacts with magical bows.

Scarab Sages

KingOfAnything wrote:

A +3 arrow is still a +3 arrow. That doesn't change if you get a +4 bonus from a bow.

Like, if I have a belt of giant strength, my carrying capacity doesn't go down if the Druid casts bull's strength on me.

Technically, it should. As the rules state that only the higher bonus applies . Meaning that the other bonus does not apply. This includes the entirety of the bonus' effect. Not some of the effect.

For instance, you don't get the stat benefit of one polymorph effect and the form of another... since only one applies.

Paizo Employee Official Rules Response

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Gaining a higher bonus that does not itself bypass DR (like greater magic weapon or transferral from a ranged weapon to its ammunition) does not remove the ability to bypass DR via the original bonus.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Design Team wrote:
Using a higher bonus from something that does not itself bypass DR like greater magic weapon or transferral from a ranged weapon to its ammunition does not remove the ability to bypass DR via the original bonus.

Thank you. ^.^


Is this an accurate paraphrase.

The original bonus that allows the ammunition to bypass DR is not affected by either a) transferal of a bonus from a ranged weapon to its ammunition, or b) gaining a higher bonus (like greater magic weapon) that itself does not bypass DR.


Cheers!

Scarab Sages

CrystalSeas wrote:

Is this an accurate paraphrase.

The original bonus that allows the ammunition to bypass DR is not affected by either a) transferal of a bonus from a ranged weapon to its ammunition, or b) gaining a higher bonus (like greater magic weapon) that itself does not bypass DR.

Yes, except the clarification has wider scope than ranged weapons.

Any magic weapon that gains an enhancement bonus that contains a clause that prevents it from piercing DR, such as from Greater Magic Weapon, retains any DR piercing it had from its original enhancement bonus.


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This thing is written in legalese.

If I have a +3 bow does it overcome cold iron/silver DR or do I have to buy +3 ammunition?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Buy +3 ammo


You need +3 ammunition or the special material in question.

THE BOW DOES NOTHING!

Okay, so it does make the arrows magical, and if the bow is aligned it provides that for ammo as well. That's it.


wraithstrike wrote:

This thing is written in legalese.

If I have a +3 bow does it overcome cold iron/silver DR or do I have to buy +3 ammunition?

You need to buy +3 ammo. Your bow's bonus no longer contributes to its ammo bypassing DR.

Scarab Sages

wraithstrike wrote:

This thing is written in legalese.

If I have a +3 bow does it overcome cold iron/silver DR or do I have to buy +3 ammunition?

As others have said you'd have to buy +3 arrows.

Better yet, buy cold iron and silver arrows.
The part that is going to hurt is trying to bypass alignment based DR and adamantine. Good thing durable arrows are a thing. Switch hitters notably are going to have issues as they have a harder time getting clustered shots. But in the end this won't hurt bow using specialized archers much. It is crossbow and gun users that will be hurt the most.


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Yup, Clustered Shots just went from Green to Blue in a lot of Archer-based guides with this FAQ.

**EDIT**

Ironically enough, the Empty Quiver Style feat chain just got a lot more valuable, too...

Scarab Sages

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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Yup, Clustered Shots just went from Green to Blue in a lot of Archer-based guides with this FAQ.

**EDIT**

Ironically enough, the Empty Quiver Style feat chain just got a lot more valuable, too...

The thing is that this ruling is presented as if the game had always been this way. So how was archery supposed to be effective before Ultimate Combat in high level play? As before then clustered shots did not exist. Were you just supposed to spend all your gold on aligned ammunition?


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Lorewalker wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Yup, Clustered Shots just went from Green to Blue in a lot of Archer-based guides with this FAQ.

**EDIT**

Ironically enough, the Empty Quiver Style feat chain just got a lot more valuable, too...

The thing is that this ruling is presented as if the game had always been this way. So how was archery supposed to be effective before Ultimate Combat in high level play? As before then clustered shots did not exist. Were you just supposed to spend all your gold on aligned ammunition?

Pretty much.

This is a FAQ that should've been done back in the days when Pathfinder only had the Core Rulebook and Beastiary, but never was (for unknown reasons). And considering the motto back then was "Martials cannot have nice things," it's no surprise the FAQ reached the outcome that it did. Because it's an answer that comes from a book that basically said "Screw Martials, Thug Wizards 4 Lyfe."

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Is the action economy to apply an oil just too much? You'd think the typical way to align a weapon wasn't align weapon or something.

It's right there on CRB p.240, guys. You can stop the freak out.

Scarab Sages

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KingOfAnything wrote:

Is the action economy to apply an oil just too much? You'd think the typical way to align a weapon wasn't align weapon or something.

It's right there on CRB p.240, guys. You can stop the freak out.

Try to sit out the first round of combat during any combat with a creature with DR/alignment. Since we are talking move action and standard action to apply the oil. Add in holding your turn for the person who can identify the creature if you can't. Add in possibly using your first turn to fire ineffectually and then having to spend your second turn getting your bow situated.

Now, it is also 300 gp a vial. You must buy them for the specific alignment. They will only last one combat. We're still talking significant expenditure here. Unless you have a pocket caster. Just hope everyone has the same alignment DR in the fight... Imagine what it would be like if your campaign moved into the planes without clustered shots.

But a melee guy just has to buy a weapon with the right plus on it once maybe twice depending on his style.

Again, I am talking high level play.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

At the point in play you are considering a +5 weapon, 300gp a combat seems trivial.

Yes, going into a high level combat without any intel is tough. That's why you have teammates and a backup plan.


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KingOfAnything wrote:

At the point in play you are considering a +5 weapon, 300gp a combat seems trivial.

Yes, going into a high level combat without any intel is tough. That's why you have teammates and a backup plan.

Align weapon only handles alignment. It does not handle other types of DR, and in most games the combat ends in about 3 rounds so basically you have to sit out a round, and by the end of round 2 the fight is in cleanup mode. You also have to choose the right alignment. With a weapon you dont need to choose, and you could choose wrong. It just bypasses it. Not every monster with DR(insert alignment) is an outsider with an aligned subtype.

Then you have not only wasted 300 gold, but your action, and even if you can afford to have your normal gear and 10 of those potions/oils you will still likely only have a limited amount. Now if you could just say "I burn 300 gp to have the effect of "align weapon as a potion", then it would offer less risk, but most GM's wont do that. If you dont have the potion, then you dont have the potion.

Yeah you have team members, but not every party is made of the classic 4 so you may not get align weapon out of a cleric, and even so there are better spells for them to cast most of the time.

I get that you see it as trivial, and maybe that is due to how you play the game, but dont assume that having damage mitigated by DR on a constant basis is fun for everyone, and that is very possible in high level play no matter if you burn through them or conserve. Also dont assume people will have an endless supply of <insert consumable> because you wont always be able to get back to town to resupply just because someone has teleport(insert other spell as needed), assuming someone in the party even has the spell.


Also there is not normally a backup plan for fights because you dont know who you are fighting, and you wont be planning for every fight at most tables. That means there is not even a plan A in most fights, much less a plan B.


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Lorewalker wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Yup, Clustered Shots just went from Green to Blue in a lot of Archer-based guides with this FAQ.

**EDIT**

Ironically enough, the Empty Quiver Style feat chain just got a lot more valuable, too...

The thing is that this ruling is presented as if the game had always been this way. So how was archery supposed to be effective before Ultimate Combat in high level play? As before then clustered shots did not exist. Were you just supposed to spend all your gold on aligned ammunition?

Pretty much.

This is a FAQ that should've been done back in the days when Pathfinder only had the Core Rulebook and Beastiary, but never was (for unknown reasons). And considering the motto back then was "Martials cannot have nice things," it's no surprise the FAQ reached the outcome that it did. Because it's an answer that comes from a book that basically said "Screw Martials, Thug Wizards 4 Lyfe."

I've seen quiet a few complaints about archers in the past, so I am not surprised, and you can provide all the data you want, but they will come back "I cant explain it, but it feels overpowered", and that is all they care about. That is likely the source of this ruling which I will be ignoring.

Scarab Sages

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KingOfAnything wrote:

At the point in play you are considering a +5 weapon, 300gp a combat seems trivial.

Yes, going into a high level combat without any intel is tough. That's why you have teammates and a backup plan.

Remember, that's not your only expense. That's just the additional expense you get to pay for being ranged. Then you're also needing to buy adamantine arrows as well. And this is before they had durable arrows.

But yes, I am not putting down teammates or backup plans. I am explaining that the archer would have to go through additional hardship over the melee guy in regards to DR piercing. And that any campaign that spent time in the planes and did not offer frequent town visits for oil buying would have landed archers in serious trouble.

Most of this would have been surmountable. But it would have severely impacted the damage output of an archer in any fight that included alignment DR. And would have hit their bank account hard if there were many creatures with adamantine DR.


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
This is a FAQ that should've been done back in the days when Pathfinder only had the Core Rulebook and Beastiary, but never was (for unknown reasons). And considering the motto back then was "Martials cannot have nice things," it's no surprise the FAQ reached the outcome that it did. Because it's an answer that comes from a book that basically said "Screw Martials, Thug Wizards 4 Lyfe."

Yeah, Baby! 4 Lyfe!

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