Inquisitors are pretty well regarded archers as I recall.
archers just do damage. Archer fighter does some things. Also there primal hunter barbarian that does archery pretty well.
Archery is a valid combat style for almost any class with martial ability. Since it's such a powerful combat option, you should be able to bring something useful to the table even if you're not hyper-optimized.
Archery is a valid combat style for almost any class with martial ability. Since it's such a powerful combat option, you should be able to bring something useful to the table even if you're not hyper-optimized.
Really everyone should. Queue the Fighter jokes.
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Good archer builds:
There are TWO archer archetypes for Magus, both of which work (now). The new one is pretty well regarded, though the old one can shocking grasp at range (which is neat.)
In Ranged tactics toolbox, there is a barbarian archetype archer that is actually pretty good- it nets you a +2 to hit with ranged weapons when you rage instead of a +2 to will saves. Also gets you the exceptional pull feat for free, so you don't have to worry about putting adaptive on your bow.
As someone said, an Elf (for the bow proficiency) alchemist can get exploding arrows.
Ranger and Slayer work well, especially since you can get improved precice shot at level 6
The 'archer' archetype for fighter is probably the best for straight up, no-nonsense archery. Two feats at level one (Point blank and precice shot) and they just get straight up bonuses to hit and damage with their bows.
The Zen Archer is often considered the best archers around, but because the build uses wisdom to hit (which you don't get till level 3) levels 1 and 2 can be a slog.
As mentioned: Inquisitors get some good self-buffs (including bane) which can do well with archery.
As Mentioned: There is a paladin-archer archetype that can do well with archery, especially against evil targets.
As Mentioned: Bards can do well, especially while singing to themselves.
There is a rogue archetype that gets a longer-range sneak attack and bonuses to sniping. If you can find cover, my friend has actually devised a way to be MORE stealthy while sniping than while standing still. (eye roll)
Grenadier alchemists with explosive missile and a hybridization funnel can load a lot of damage on to one arrow.
Warpriests can get all the feats, as well as self-buffing.
It doesn't do much besides shoot things, but a gunslinger (w/bolt ace if you didn't want guns) is effective at that.
Bloodrager is the fastest entry to the arcane archer PrC, which has its points.
ask your self several Q's:
if you want spells and shooting than bard or magus are great.if you want to be mobile, skill monkey, and scout - halfling urban ranger on a flying mount is just sick . you fly into a safe zone, trapfinding, super stealth while small lower damage just a bit. the animal companion can be either a mobile mount or a protection tank to shoot behind.
halfling and dwarfs also offer super saves.a zen archer will free all your fears but 2 (deadly aim and clustered shots. )
you will be immune to trips, super saves and at high levels also D-door, ghost form or stunning fists.fighter archer is a bit boring, nice damage and maneuvers with arrows. but little in off games.
i love small races, mounted rangers - the mobility and scout for off combats while still doing ok damage.
zen archers are like the green arrow style .
I wouldn't count Fighter archers out just yet. True that some other builds might work better with damage and other things but you can get really creative with it.
For example there are plenty of special kind of arrows to use which would make it interesting. I played one and he was basically The Green Arrow with all his gadgets. He was a great asset
ask your self several Q's:
if you want spells and shooting than bard or magus are great.if you want to be mobile, skill monkey, and scout - halfling urban ranger on a flying mount is just sick . you fly into a safe zone, trapfinding, super stealth while small lower damage just a bit. the animal companion can be either a mobile mount or a protection tank to shoot behind.
halfling and dwarfs also offer super saves.a zen archer will free all your fears but 2 (deadly aim and clustered shots. )
you will be immune to trips, super saves and at high levels also D-door, ghost form or stunning fists.fighter archer is a bit boring, nice damage and maneuvers with arrows. but little in off games.
i love small races, mounted rangers - the mobility and scout for off combats while still doing ok damage.
zen archers are like the green arrow style .
I wouldn't count Fighter archers out just yet. True that some other builds might work better with damage and other things but you can get really creative with it.
For example there are plenty of special kind of arrows to use which would make it interesting. I played one and he was basically The Green Arrow with all his gadgets. He was a great asset
Fighter archers are the most powerful build for fighters. And they do damage as well as pretty much anyone else since there are A LOT of useful archery feats and they have 20/21 feats to spend, which allows them to do damage just great on top of other things.
It's true that they are limited by the usual fighter problems with skills and low saves but when it comes to archery alone they are among the best.
Archery is a valid combat style for almost any class with martial ability. Since it's such a powerful combat option, you should be able to bring something useful to the table even if you're not hyper-optimized.Really everyone should. Queue the Rogue jokes.
FTFY.
Fighters still suck, but it's not because they can't deal damage. It's because dealing damage is their only good feature.
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Archery is a valid combat style for almost any class with martial ability. Since it's such a powerful combat option, you should be able to bring something useful to the table even if you're not hyper-optimized.Really everyone should. Queue the Rogue jokes.FTFY.
Fighters still suck, but it's not because they can't deal damage. It's because dealing damage is their only good feature.
Unchained rogues are much better than fighters. They make horrible archers, but that's just because ranged sneak attacks are so hard to get off.
Unchained rogues are much better than fighters. They make horrible archers, but that's just because ranged sneak attacks are so hard to get off.Archery is a valid combat style for almost any class with martial ability. Since it's such a powerful combat option, you should be able to bring something useful to the table even if you're not hyper-optimized.Really everyone should. Queue the Rogue jokes.FTFY.
Fighters still suck, but it's not because they can't deal damage. It's because dealing damage is their only good feature.
Outside of combat, Rogues are better than Fighters. This was never debated. If I had 8 Skill Points/level, and some really good class skills, well...people wouldn't be complaining about the Fighter nearly as much as they are now.
As far as them being better than fighters in terms of melee damage, the math would tell you that you're insane and highly incorrect. I can guarantee you a Fighter will always be a better martial than a Rogue at any given level; throwing in Unchained helps the gap slightly, but you're still dealing with the illusion that is Dexterity being superior to Strength.
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As far as them being better than fighters in terms of melee damage, the math would tell you that you're insane and highly incorrect. I can guarantee you a Fighter will always be a better martial than a Rogue at any given level; throwing in Unchained helps the gap slightly, but you're still dealing with the illusion that is Dexterity being superior to Strength.
Dexterity is not superior to Strength, but it is equivalent for the unchained rogue. And you are not accounting for the accuracy boost that Debilitating Injury brings to the class. With Improved Two-Weapon Feint or Circling Mongoose, a Rogue has no problem at all with accuracy and self-generating sneak attacks, which will make them very close to a fighter in combat capability.
A lot of people are talking about how great a Zen Archer monk is at archery. Now, I'm not saying the Zen archer isn't good but things to consider:
1) An optimized zen archer maximizes wisdom then strength. Con is probably next. Dexterity may or may not come before int. Cha isn't notable. The problem here is that you wont hit the broad side of a barn with a bow until level 3, when you get wisdom to your attack instead of dex. This means levels 1 and 2 are a awful. Usually consisting of wielding a two-handed melee weapon because you aren't good at much else.
2) Zen-archer do pick up a lot of the archery feats very quickly, this is nice.
3) Zen-archers are pretty good from level 3 until somewhere in the mid-levels. However, they only get 1 more attack compared to a full BAB archers using rapid shot and manyshot. The zen archer however lacks much in the way of adding additional to hit bonuses and static damage bonuses compared to many other classes.
The zen archer gets a lot of feats early on that helps his build really come together early. However, in later levels his lack of ability to increase his damage through static damage modifiers means he will get outshined (IMO) at later levels. Unless you are going to build "The One" exactly the zen archer is a very capable archer but far from the best archer. And even then I'm not sure how the one would compare to other optimized archery builds.
Sohei does a bit better in the long run with his ability to flurry, and still use rapid shot and manyshot. Still, you have to wait 6 levels to be able to flurry with a bow.
For the cleric unchained monk, remember you need to pick up crusader's flurry. I'm less familiar with this build to know if it's good.
You can't use Crusader's Flurry with a bow, the feat requires a favored melee weapon.
Ah, so dipping cleric isn't of any value. I often forget about the melee restriction of crusader's flurry.
STR is only better DEX if you never make it past level 3 or if you look at straight damage, and that's only if you're not looking at the unchained rogue. The extra damage isn't that much, and is far outweighed by the extra benefits DEX gives you.
As far as Zen Archer, you can easily have 14 DEX with the right race (Tengu, Assimar), which gives you at least a +2 (+3 if you take Point BlankShot). Not great, but take a look at all the other non-Full BAB claases out there, and see what they're doing at levels 1. At level 2 you get +1 BAB and Weapon Focus, that gives you +4/+5 with Point Blank, and that ain't bad. An 18 DEX fighter is only +6 with point blank shot assuming he took the same feats as the Monk.
Yes fighter may have more damage, but it's archery, does it really matter if the baddie is at -20 or -60 hitpoints? Dead is dead, and Zen Archer does enough damage to obliterate anything it comes across. What makes it so superior is everything else it can do that a fighter can't. A Zen Archer has more feats than a fighter until level 10 (countling class abilites as feats). They aren't as flexible as a fighters, but they are pretty standard for a ranged build, and the bonus feats ignore prerequs, which brings me to: A Zen Archer gets Point Blank Master (no provoking) at level 3, a fighter gets this level 5 at the earliest. At level 6 a Zen Archer gets Improved Precise Shot, a Fighter has to wait unitl level 11. This alone is HUGE. How much is the damage difference when a fighter has to roll a 50% miss chance and the Zen Archer doesn't? Add Qinggong Monk, and you're abilities get even better.
I dunno, I could never recommend a fighter archer over the Zen.
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I wonder how does a fighter gets more damage than a Zen Archer. I'd believe that the Zen outperforms due to having more attacks in a flurry and either having an additional attack or a bigger die using ki.
Has anyone ever done the math to this?
Weapon Training + Gloves of Dueling. That is a flat +7 to hit and damage which is far more valuable for DPR than the unarmed damage die, which also offsets the penalty from deadly aim, adding even more damage.
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fighter is not there only for damage,
the archer fighter can also do some maneuvers at range- which is nice to add to combats.
Archer fighter is worse at archery than a core fighter. It gives up armor training (very good for an archer), and the ability to use gloves of dueling (the best item for fighters in the game) in exchange for a weak ability to do maneuvers at range that can be replicated with feats.
Archer fighter is a trap, and should never be taken by anyone.
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Warning Shot (not a feint, but more useful than one)fighter is not there only for damage,
the archer fighter can also do some maneuvers at range- which is nice to add to combats.
Archer fighter is worse at archery than a core fighter. It gives up armor training (very good for an archer), and the ability to use gloves of dueling (the best item for fighters in the game) in exchange for a weak ability to do maneuvers at range that can be replicated with feats.
Archer fighter is a trap, and should never be taken by anyone.
how so ?
there is no way to do maneuver at range...
non.
They are more limited than an Archer's Trickshot, but they are also more likely to succeed as they only have a -2 penalty and use your Dex for CMB.
Besides maneuvers at range suck. A single arrow's damage is never going to do enough damage to sunder an object unless you are trying to robin hood a hanging victim. Ranged Feint isn't even a maneuver and it's got a -4 to CMB. At 11th level you can ranged grapple, but your foe can escape with a DC 13 STR check or by destroying the 5hp arrow.
Trick Shot is a waste, and you trade away too much to get it.
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those 2 feats are of non officials books - and rightly so... the give a unique class ability - and i would never allow it.
also, the feats are full round actions.
the archer shoot then as attacks,
They are in the Ranged Tactics Toolbox, an official Paizo product.
As for the action economy, the archer only shoots them as attacks for the maneuvers that can be used as attack normally: Disarm, Trip, and Sunder. Otherwise, they are standard actions. There isn't much difference between a Standard action and Full Round action as far as an archer is concerned, as they both block you form full-attacking.
As I said, Ranged Maneuvers are very situational, and they are not worth what you lose.
those 2 feats are of non officials books - and rightly so... the give a unique class ability - and i would never allow it.
They are from the Ranged Tactics Toolbox, an official book published by Paizo. Though they are not from the core lineup of books (things that are on the PRD). But plenty of people use stuff from the non-core line of books, so you should probably rethink your statement.