Not really sure where to put this post. I suppose its not so much a question but maybe more of a poll.
How do people approach both encumbrance and equipment storage in PFS, especially for high strength martial characters who are usually expected to bring all the generic but useful adventuring gear (rope, crowbars, weapons of multiple materials and damage types for DR, etc).
The reason I ask is because yesterday my family and I were playing at a PFS table, when my daughter's character went to get her potion of enlarge person as a move action in preparation to drink it. We were asked by the DM where she kept it. He noted if it was stored inside her backpack it was going to be a full round action to grab it (perhaps not unreasonable given the amount of other stuff inside said backpack).
One of other players asked/suggested if we had it in a bandoleer, for example.
I pointed out each Half-orc's base clothes was an Explorer's Outfit (plus we had another 7 lbs of cold weather gear as this was up in the Land of the Linnorm Kings). The base description of the Explorer's Outfit is that each piece of it has many pockets, such as the belt and cloak. I figured that one of her 4 combat potions would most likely be in a pouch on the belt.
The GM was content with this answer, and play proceeded with the move action.
But it did get me thinking it was probably worth adding a location column to our gear print outs. I use a spreadsheet to easily add and remove gear, while calculating encumbrance quickly, and bring print outs to the table sessions. It takes a bit of consideration to keep two of our character in light encumbrance (even with their 16 and 18 base strength along with a masterwork backpack).
As I sat down to add the locations, I wondered how does one sheath both a greatsword and a lucerne hammer while wearing a masterwork backpack? Attach it to the pack itself? Then we have to include the 1-H silver light mace, cold iron dagger, and pair of throwing chakrams. And a sling. Do we have a party of 3 half-orc "Barbarians" (Skald, Barbarian, Bloodrager) with too many weapons each? No one at any of the tables seems to even blink when we pull the appropriate weapon depending on the encounter, but grabbing a tiny, weightless potion apparently causes concern.
Given the existence of things like a spell component pouch, I'm assuming I shouldn't worry about it too much and go with the flow of making the game work smoothly.
Anyways, do people tend to just track encumbrance, track encumbrance and location with consideration to bulkiness, or just hand wave it?
Would people consider carrying 4 different melee weapons, 2 thrown, and 1 sling in easy reach as too much without spending serious gold on an Efficient Quiver or a Handy Haversack (does that even help with a greatsword + lucerne hammer?). Plus some alchemist's fire, holy water, and small (about 6) selection of potions/wands/scrolls?
Thanks for your thoughts.
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The Handy Haversack will do the trick for potions, scrolls, alchemical items, etc. everything becomes a move action that doesn't provoke. It doesn't help for the weapons, though, since you can't put sharp things in it unless they are also sheathed.
There's a relatively new item that is the equivalent for weapons. Scabbard of Many Blades. The price, though, means it'll take a few levels to afford one or for the fame.
Weapons tend to be assumed to come with a sheath or some way to attach them within easy reach, so I think that's why they are questioned less often. I've been questioned before about wands, since they are weapon like and can be drawn as a weapon, but they don't come with a sheath.
The bandolier would seem to be the answer, but it's poorly written, and it's still technically a "retrieve a stored item" action to take something out of a bandolier. That is, of course, contrary to the intended use of a bandolier, but nevertheless how the item reads.
A similarly odd reality of the masterwork backpack is that it doesn't specify that it only works with items stored in the backpack. So just having one equipped means you get the benefit of having a higher strength for encumberance, even if most of the weight you're carrying is from weapons. In that case the item works in the players benefit because of the way the description is written.
I do tend to track encumberance. At least until the point I get a Handy Haversack. After that it tends not to be an issue.
If your DM wants to add more realism without significantly changing the flow of the game. He could charge more than a move action to resheath a weapon besides your primary. Sure someone could arrange their kit just so for easy access. But good luck putting it back that way in combat.
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To "manipulate an item" is indeed a move action, not a full round action, and includes drawing potions from backpacks.
I do seem to recall there being a rule about digging through someone else's backpack requiring a full-round action, but searching for it now comes up with nothing.
Encumbrance does need to be tracked, since there are mechanical benefits to being lightly encumbered, but generally speaking location is not important. That could get messy really quickly as you acquire a collection of wands, potions, and scrolls.
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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The only full action retrieval I know of is retrieving something from a bag of holing that has more in it than a backpack can hold. Assuming this is a general premis, as opposed to something specific to the magic of the bag of holding, that means it if only a full action if you have to rummage through more than a back back will hold. So it will never be a full action to retrieve from a backpack .
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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To "manipulate an item" is indeed a move action, not a full round action, and includes drawing potions from backpacks.
I do seem to recall there being a rule about digging through someone else's backpack requiring a full-round action, but searching for it now comes up with nothing.
Encumbrance does need to be tracked, since there are mechanical benefits to being lightly encumbered, but generally speaking location is not important. That could get messy really quickly as you acquire a collection of wands, potions, and scrolls.
You might be thinking about a scroll tube.
And the language of the handy haversack seems to imply something that is not part of the rules, which might have confused the GM.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I think I may have found the source of the confusion.
Draw/Sheathe weapon is a move action, but mentions that if your weapon is stuffed in a backpack, you need the Retrieve Item action instead. Which might make you think that's got a different action cost.
The actual difference however is that drawing weapons does not provoke, while retrieving items does.
In addition, you probably don't carry scrolls loose in your backpack, but protected inside a case. So if you first need to retrieve the case from your pack, then unwrap the scroll, that's two move actions. Better to wear a scroll case on your belt.
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Move action, get your stuff. Thats the rule.
One thing do i consider giving the hairy eyeball to is stowing a polearm. I mean... how?
I've run into that issue a few times. I solved it by purchasing a Scabbard of Many Blades, in which I can store my polearms without having trouble. It's a fairly expensive solution though, at 5000 gold.
Move action, get your stuff. Thats the rule.
One thing do i consider giving the hairy eyeball to is stowing a polearm. I mean... how?
Presumably its not much worse than a greatsword for a fantasy adventurer. Pathfinder claims a greatsword is about 5 feet in length, while a Lucerne hammer according to Wikipedia is about 7 feet in length, while real life zweihander is listed as 5.9 feet.
So, put it on the back of a 6'5" fantasy Orc at a 30 degree angle with some kind of straps/clasps? Modify the haft to have a hook or two, so you release by pulling up and twisting?
I believe there are at least 2 Pathfinder iconics going around with polearms on their backs, probably more. The samurai iconic, Hayato has a katana and a naginata. The cavalier iconic, Alain, has a lance, longsword, flail, crossbow and heavy shield. I guess we can look at their pictures and minis for ideas. Also, would you tell a level 7 Alain he has to leave his +2 Lance behind when he needs to climb a wall with his silk rope and grappling hook, or that he needs to drop the lance to go sword and shield?
I admit in real life it seems dubious but this is in a fantasy game where a 2 pound non-magical spell component pouch contains every single trivial material component ever, in infinite amounts, even for spells you can't cast and don't know exist, perfectly organized to be able to grab them as a free action, just to speed play.
I'm starting to figure I shouldn't worry about location too much and just go with what makes the game flow, as that appears to be a design intent. Track overall weight encumbrance, as we have rules for that, but martials are clearly expected to be walking armories and function.
Anyways, I appreciate the responses and thoughts on it.
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One thing do i consider giving the hairy eyeball to is stowing a polearm. I mean... how?
Yeah, smaller polearms I can see, but reach weapons? How does one put away a longspear? And if you could, would it interfere with movement in (say) a narrow tunnel?
There is actually no enabling rule saying you can do so (that I've found). Even "Draw/sheathe a weapon" on the actions table implies the weapon in question must have a sheath/be sheath-able. (And before anyone says it's covered by "weapon", under that logic I can draw/sheath a catapult or cannon in the same way.)
One thing do i consider giving the hairy eyeball to is stowing a polearm. I mean... how?Yeah, smaller polearms I can see, but reach weapons? How does one put away a longspear? And if you could, would it interfere with movement in (say) a narrow tunnel?
There is actually no enabling rule saying you can do so (that I've found). Even "Draw/sheathe a weapon" on the actions table implies the weapon in question must have a sheath/be sheath-able. (And before anyone says it's covered by "weapon", under that logic I can draw/sheath a catapult or cannon in the same way.)
Just to play devil's advocate, I'll merely point out if you use the sheathable/not sheathable criteria, large (as in the creature size) weapons satisfy that restriction, even if they may be larger than some reach weapons. The Lucerne hammer is about 7' long, while Amiri's large bastard sword should be 8' long. Clearly it is sheathable or storable by a large sized creature, and perhaps by Amiri herself on her back (with 2-3' sticking above her head).
It definitely feels like its in the area of DM interpretation, although as noted earlier, I'm tending to think for PFS you should be allowed to store reach weapons.
Edit: I just came to a very strange realization after thinking about the above statement. Large non-reach weapons remain non-reach, but small sized reach weapons retain reach. So a 3.5' long Lucerne hammer provides reach. I'll let people ponder that one. And whether they'd let someone medium sized store it.
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Your best bet is not to think about how something would work in the real world, it will only cause pain and suffering. A polearm is only used in open field battles as part of a larger formation, never indoors or individually, it is just too unwieldy and impossible to get through narrow hallways and spiral stairs. A polearm soldier might use a halberd or short spear if garrisoning a building, but they would only have a dagger or shortsword as a secondary weapon.
In game terms, 50 lbs of feathers in a sack encumbers just as much as 50 lbs of feathers carried individually. How do you carry that many feathers individually? Don't know, don't care, still lightly encumbered and I can locate the one specific feather I want as a move action. Pathfinder is ultra high fantasy, if you want something closer to reality, I would suggest a different game system.
If you wish, you can think of it as arranging the kit so that things that your life depends on are always within easy reach and accessible by habit.
As far as Enlarge Person goes, more than likely the character was medium encumbered after enlarging. Strength goes up by 2 points which increases carrying capacity by about 33%, but Large Everything doubles in weight. Given a light capacity of 100 lbs, armour, weapons and miscellaneous totaling 80 lbs, enlarging makes light capacity 133 lbs but total load becomes 160 lbs. If you like being enlarged make sure you know exactly what you are carrying.
You forgot that carrying capacity goes up when enlarging as well.
Bigger and Smaller Creatures: The figures on Table: Carrying Capacity are for Medium bipedal creatures. A larger bipedal creature can carry more weight depending on its size category, as follows:
Large ×2,
Huge ×4,
Gargantuan ×8,
Colossal ×16.A smaller creature can carry less weight depending on its size category, as follows:
Small ×3/4,
Tiny ×1/2,
Diminutive ×1/4,
Fine ×1/8.
As far as Enlarge Person goes, more than likely the character was medium encumbered after enlarging. Strength goes up by 2 points which increases carrying capacity by about 33%, but Large Everything doubles in weight. Given a light capacity of 100 lbs, armour, weapons and miscellaneous totaling 80 lbs, enlarging makes light capacity 133 lbs but total load becomes 160 lbs. If you like being enlarged make sure you know exactly what you are carrying.
Believe me I keep that in mind. This is why the skald (who is in medium encumbrance anyways) generally picks up adventure related items. However, in combat, our party's encumbrance issues go away. The Barbarian and Bloodrager (the character in question) have amplified rage, and the Skald has Warleader's rage. In combat while enlarged, her strength was 16 (base) + 8 (Amp rage) + 2 (Enlarge) = 26. +1 for the MW backpack. Normally, she is just under light category for 17 Str (~85 lbs).
As a large sized effective 27 strength character, her light limit is 692 lbs. Roughly 520 lbs to spare...
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there are 2 issues at hand; retrieval time and whether that action provokes an attack of opportunity.
so, retrieval time is a move action (usually) unless it is in a container with (lots of) other stuff.
Those actions almost always provoke an AoO.draw a weapon, move action, does not provoke. with BAB 1+ may do this as part of a regular move (aka move 5' step or more).
retrieve a stored item, move action, provokes.
Handy Haversack makes retrieve a stored item NOT provoke.
Bag of Holding, "Retrieving a specific item from a bag of holding is a move action, unless the bag contains more than an ordinary backpack would hold, in which case retrieving a specific item is a full-round action."
Backpack holds 2cuft (no density is given).
I would infer a medium sized backpack would hold 100lbs. 125lb = 2*62.37(density of water (lb/cuft)) which would be quite generous. Backpacks aren't designed to hold sand(95lb/cuft), steel chips(150lb/cuft), or solid gold(1204.86lb/cuft). Going by the Bag of Holding type I numbers of 8lbs/cuft gives you an unsatisfactory 16lbs.
I'd give a masterwork backpack an inferred capacity of 150lbs as it's better constructed.very minor nit-pick...
the bolded part should read something like (aka move more than a 5' step).
That is how we run it here, standing up from prone, 5' step, etc., do not count as moving for drawing a weapon.
Only actual movement, even if it is a move action to move just 5', allows the free draw a weapon part.
On the Handy Haversack: Remember that it is not a bag of infinite holding, it is a very limited add-on to normal carrying capacity. It can hold a maximum of 120 lbs, and even that is not all in a single area. It has three compartments, the main one which can hold 80 lbs, and two side compartments which can hold 20 lbs. each.
I have at least one PC whose list shows how much he is carrying, and what is in each compartment on his Handy Haversack, and the weight totals for each compartment. He has a few lbs spare capacity on his person to stay at light, but his HH is almost full, something like only a 1/2 lb. left in one of the compartments. I actually bought him a Bag of Holding I to store his extra quivers of arrows, after he ran out of normal arrows during the first act of one of the Specials, which he uses between combats to restock his Efficient Quiver...
I do track weights and encumbrance for all my PCs, but I use Hero Lab to build and update them, so...
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As far as Enlarge Person goes, more than likely the character was medium encumbered after enlarging. Strength goes up by 2 points which increases carrying capacity by about 33%, but Large Everything doubles in weight. Given a light capacity of 100 lbs, armour, weapons and miscellaneous totaling 80 lbs, enlarging makes light capacity 133 lbs but total load becomes 160 lbs. If you like being enlarged make sure you know exactly what you are carrying.
Don't forget that a large creature has twice the carrying capacity AND the +2 to Str.
Now, large items SHOULD weigh about 8 times as much (square/cube law) but, in Pathfinder, they're only double (at least weapons and armor are).
Admittedly if, in fact, the square/cube law WAS enforced the result of enlarge person would be pretty much to break your legs as soon as you started to move :-).
So, in game enlarge person helps your encumbrance. As does reduce person (since weight is halved and you only lose 2 str for carrying capacity) :-)