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Urban Bloodrager, does anyone think it's worth it?


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In Champions of the Streets, an Urban Bloodrager archetype was introduced. Like the Urban barbarian, it civilizes the skill list, and switches the rage mechanic. It also trades out Blood Sanctuary for the ability to grant others a bonus vs the Bloodrager's aoe spells.

So far, so good.

Then it gains the ability to learn a spell from the magus list every few levels. For this it trades... Damage Reduction.

Is the ability to learn Bladed Dash really worth losing Damage Reduction for a melee class? (Although to be fair, yes you could use the controlled Bloodrage to increase Dex and play ranged, but then there's no need to learn Magus specific melee spells.) I don't think so. I plan to use the archetype in my home games sans that ability, but I'm curious about what others think.

Silver Crusade

I traded out DR for the ability to wear heavy armor when I took the Steelblooded archetype, and I haven't really noticed its loss. That said, I guess you'd be wearing lighter armor, and possibly not using the cheese that is the Arcane Bloodline, so perhaps you'd feel it more because you may get hit more. But personally, I don't feel the DR is that big of a deal because of how small an amount it is.

Dark Archive

The whole point of the urban rager archetypes is for dexterity based characters(as far as I can tell) and remember that you can pick up other magus spells too, not just combat ones. Extra spells known are also just really useful in general.


You forgot about Bards. *cough* *hack* *cough*


Right, but with the already limited casting the 'Rager gets, are extra spells to learn really that much of a benefit?

I feel like I must be missing some really awesome spells that are on the Bard or Magus list but not the Wiz/Sorc list that benefit ranged characters.


I find DR something that's nice, but not a huge deal (unless invulnerable rager) at lv7 you have DR 1. That makes you HP increase by the number of times you're attacked. Having more options for spells instead of a little extra HP? could be worth it to some people. Plus you'd have to reach lv7 for it to matter.


Chess Pwn wrote:
I find DR something that's nice, but not a huge deal (unless invulnerable rager) at lv7 you have DR 1. That makes you HP increase by the number of times you're attacked. Having more options for spells instead of a little extra HP? could be worth it to some people. Plus you'd have to reach lv7 for it to matter.

I know Mithral armor is the popular choice, but don't forget that Adamantine armor DR stacks with Barbarian DR, so would presumably stack with Bloodrager DR. So add an Adamantine breastplate and it's DR 3/-, eventually getting up to 8/-, or 10/- if you're Undead bloodline (or even higher if you're Primalist as well and take improved DR rage power).


adamantine armor DR does not stack with barb DR. DR does not stack unless it specifically says it does.
"If a creature has damage reduction from more than one source, the two forms of damage reduction do not stack. Instead, the creature gets the benefit of the best damage reduction in a given situation."


Scythia wrote:

Right, but with the already limited casting the 'Rager gets, are extra spells to learn really that much of a benefit?

I feel like I must be missing some really awesome spells that are on the Bard or Magus list but not the Wiz/Sorc list that benefit ranged characters.

From where I stand, you don't really need to be a ranged character. Magus and Bard have awesome spell lists for combat. I know Magus gets a few spells at lower levels than Sorcerer list. Bloodrager list does have a lot of overlap, but there are some so good it's worthwhile.


Chess Pwn wrote:

adamantine armor DR does not stack with barb DR. DR does not stack unless it specifically says it does.

"If a creature has damage reduction from more than one source, the two forms of damage reduction do not stack. Instead, the creature gets the benefit of the best damage reduction in a given situation."

Oops, I was thinking of the Stalwart fighter archetype. My mistake


The Mortonator wrote:
Scythia wrote:

Right, but with the already limited casting the 'Rager gets, are extra spells to learn really that much of a benefit?

I feel like I must be missing some really awesome spells that are on the Bard or Magus list but not the Wiz/Sorc list that benefit ranged characters.

From where I stand, you don't really need to be a ranged character. Magus and Bard have awesome spell lists for combat. I know Magus gets a few spells at lower levels than Sorcerer list. Bloodrager list does have a lot of overlap, but there are some so good it's worthwhile.

If you're not going ranged, wouldn't having even some DR/- be better than a few spells you don't have the slots to cast very often? You're going to get hit, and likely often, if you're melee.

Differences in playstyle, I suppose.


Scythia wrote:
The Mortonator wrote:
Scythia wrote:

Right, but with the already limited casting the 'Rager gets, are extra spells to learn really that much of a benefit?

I feel like I must be missing some really awesome spells that are on the Bard or Magus list but not the Wiz/Sorc list that benefit ranged characters.

From where I stand, you don't really need to be a ranged character. Magus and Bard have awesome spell lists for combat. I know Magus gets a few spells at lower levels than Sorcerer list. Bloodrager list does have a lot of overlap, but there are some so good it's worthwhile.

If you're not going ranged, wouldn't having even some DR/- be better than a few spells you don't have the slots to cast very often? You're going to get hit, and likely often, if you're melee.

Differences in playstyle, I suppose.

Well, besides the trouble stacking DR there are other alternatives. For example, going with a Weapon Finesse build and using Dex to dodge attacks or just being a good Switch Hitter. Personally, I would take Dance of a Hundred Cuts as my 4th level spell all day every day.

TWF gets somewhat viable this way.


The Mortonator wrote:
Scythia wrote:
The Mortonator wrote:
Scythia wrote:

Right, but with the already limited casting the 'Rager gets, are extra spells to learn really that much of a benefit?

I feel like I must be missing some really awesome spells that are on the Bard or Magus list but not the Wiz/Sorc list that benefit ranged characters.

From where I stand, you don't really need to be a ranged character. Magus and Bard have awesome spell lists for combat. I know Magus gets a few spells at lower levels than Sorcerer list. Bloodrager list does have a lot of overlap, but there are some so good it's worthwhile.

If you're not going ranged, wouldn't having even some DR/- be better than a few spells you don't have the slots to cast very often? You're going to get hit, and likely often, if you're melee.

Differences in playstyle, I suppose.

Well, besides the trouble stacking DR there are other alternatives. For example, going with a Weapon Finesse build and using Dex to dodge attacks or just being a good Switch Hitter. Personally, I would take Dance of a Hundred Cuts as my 4th level spell all day every day.

TWF gets somewhat viable this way.

I guess I'd prefer to take less damage from every physical attack, all day every day, rather than a spell I could only use two or three times (four if you really invest in Charisma) at level twenty.

I almost always prefer always on abilities to limited use ones though.


Scythia wrote:
The Mortonator wrote:
Scythia wrote:
The Mortonator wrote:
Scythia wrote:

Right, but with the already limited casting the 'Rager gets, are extra spells to learn really that much of a benefit?

I feel like I must be missing some really awesome spells that are on the Bard or Magus list but not the Wiz/Sorc list that benefit ranged characters.

From where I stand, you don't really need to be a ranged character. Magus and Bard have awesome spell lists for combat. I know Magus gets a few spells at lower levels than Sorcerer list. Bloodrager list does have a lot of overlap, but there are some so good it's worthwhile.

If you're not going ranged, wouldn't having even some DR/- be better than a few spells you don't have the slots to cast very often? You're going to get hit, and likely often, if you're melee.

Differences in playstyle, I suppose.

Well, besides the trouble stacking DR there are other alternatives. For example, going with a Weapon Finesse build and using Dex to dodge attacks or just being a good Switch Hitter. Personally, I would take Dance of a Hundred Cuts as my 4th level spell all day every day.

TWF gets somewhat viable this way.

I guess I'd prefer to take less damage from every physical attack, all day every day, rather than a spell I could only use two or three times (four if you really invest in Charisma) at level twenty.

I almost always prefer always on abilities to limited use ones though.

If that's how you view it then any spell advantage is going to be flatly worse than a static effect. In which case I don't think I would play Bloodrager. Rage and spells, two limited resources.

But, I don't value DR that highly. There are other ways to achieve DR and it tends not to stack.


Greater Bloodrage wrote:
In addition, upon entering a bloodrage, the bloodrager can apply the effects a bloodrager spell he knows of 2nd level or lower to himself. The spell must have a range of touch or personal. If the spell's duration is greater than 1 round, it instead lasts for the duration of the bloodrage.

So you get a free casting (does not even need a swift action) or a personal or touch spell, and it's duration does not necessarily need ot be greater than 1 round.

Bladed Dash wrote:


Range personal
Target you Duration instantaneous

Enter rage, cross off a second-level spell slot. Get a free attack on an enemy within 30ft (and avoiding all attacks of opportunity) and proceed to full attack.

If you can rage-cycle, bladed dash ALONE makes the archetype worth considering.

Restrained magic vs blood sanctuary is a little more interesting. You no longer get +2 on saves vs your allies' spells, BUT, your allies (and you) get +2 AND EVASION against your AoE spells. If you have a good reflex save, go ahead and ground-zero fireball yourself.

Other spells worth looking at:
Invisibility (swap for greater invisibility later)
Primal Scream (because being helpless is really, really bad)
Dance of a hundred cuts
Siphon Might (one of my favourite spells right now)


At level 10, it's 2 DR. DR is an alright ability, but it's not amazing.

Personally, I think you're overvaluing the bloodrager's DR Sycthia. But you've already stated you prefer non-limited use abilities. I think this comes down to a difference of play styles and preferences.

Liberty's Edge

(necro)

Could the archetype be worth it for a bloodrager in a social game with a 0 Dex mod? I'm hoping to be the party face which means having Diplomacy as a class skill would be really nice, and I like the spell options and the potential bonuses to Stealth and Acrobatics while raging, but losing DR and auto-boosted Con as well as the Will save bonus seems like it'd spell disaster for a melee rager.

Also, is it just me or is restrained magic even more useless than blood sanctuary? When do bloodragers ever cast AOE spells?


Gark the Goblin wrote:

(necro)

Could the archetype be worth it for a bloodrager in a social game with a 0 Dex mod? I'm hoping to be the party face which means having Diplomacy as a class skill would be really nice, and I like the spell options and the potential bonuses to Stealth and Acrobatics while raging, but losing DR and auto-boosted Con as well as the Will save bonus seems like it'd spell disaster for a melee rager.

Also, is it just me or is restrained magic even more useless than blood sanctuary? When do bloodragers ever cast AOE spells?

If it's a social game, with less insistence on combat, then it could be alright. If you're going to use it to boost Dex anyway, you might want to consider building the character with more of a Dex focus than a Str focus to begin with, and using ranged combat when you do have to fight.

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