Finding the surface in dark water.


Rules Questions


I have a session coming up (as DM) wherein the players will be dragged through an underwater current into a magically-murky lake of death (yes, THE Lake of Death for other Dragonlance nerds).

The only rule I'm having trouble ironing out is this one: once they're dumped out of the current about 30 feet down into a lake which only allows them to see 10 feet without total concealment affecting their vision, how do they realize which way is UP?

Wisdom check? Survival check? And either way, what is the DC? At this point, these 9th-level characters have been through the current for enough time that they are about to have to start making Con checks to hold their breaths, so I want this to be stressful and claustrophobia-inducing without wiping the party.

If you've ever taken a big dive (especially one in which you tumble around) into murky water, you know what I mean when you get that nearly overwhelming sense of panic and as you have to ascertain which way to swim and live.

Thanks for any advice!


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I don't think the rules cover this exact case. I would use a Survival Check, DC 10. You then modify it for any circumstance bonus.

At DC 15 you don't get lost. If you stay calm, knowing which way is up underwater is much easier than that. Just follow the bubbles. Thus my estimate of DC 10.


i will do something similar.
Will save for stay "calm"

then Survival check or

"Luck check"/instinct (pure Charisma + character lvl or something like that )


As BretI says, this situation is not explicitly covered in the rules. I would certainly say a survival check. Depending on the depth of the lake, the light level, the current strength, I would go anywhere from DC 10 to 25. The different between finding the surface of a calm pond only a dozen feet deep during daylight to raging rapids that are over 30 feet deep during complete darkness.


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It's as simple as watch the bubbles. If the players can see at all they should probably be able to get it with a DC 10 survival check.


I would make it a swim check not a survival check.

Basically it would be a standard swim check with an additional circumstance penalty. I would probably have not being able to see where up is -2, but I could probably see as much as -5 being appropriate.

Bottom line is, no one is going to be happy if they die cause they couldn't tell what way is up while swimming, so I would avoid making this too difficult. At the minimum if I made it relatively difficult (-5) I would probably have it get easier with subsequent checks.


Thanks all, this is about what I was thinking. :)


Its actually an inherent ability to tell which way is up while in water. Not sure exactly why or how it happens but they covered it in mythbusters if you want to check it out. Obviously though this is a fantasy world so whatever works for you :)


If you're lungs are full of air and you're not carrying too much, you usually somewhat float.


Goddity wrote:
If you're lungs are full of air and you're not carrying too much, you usually somewhat float.

And if not then you usually sink... which is just as good for figuring out which way is up.


Also, people are able to do it on instinct, with blindfold on. Go watch mythbusters, they have something on this.

Maybe if you panic real hard, you might be a little confused. Maybe. Regardless, it's probably not a 'skill' in the sense that you get better at it by having training, so survival wouldn't apply here. An (easy) will save where fear bonuses apply, maybe. That's a nice way to make the fighter feel good about his Bravery class feature too, so that's good.

It's certainly nowhere near the dc 25 that campingcarl set as the upper boundary.


The Dragon wrote:
It's certainly nowhere near the dc 25 that campingcarl set as the upper boundary.

Under very extreme circumstances may I reiterate.

But yes, it's all subject to opinion because there are no rules for this.


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
The Dragon wrote:

Also, people are able to do it on instinct, with blindfold on. Go watch mythbusters, they have something on this.

Maybe if you panic real hard, you might be a little confused. Maybe. Regardless, it's probably not a 'skill' in the sense that you get better at it by having training, so survival wouldn't apply here. An (easy) will save where fear bonuses apply, maybe.

Research scuba salvage work. People do lose track of which way is up. Training does help, because having been in a similar situation gives your mind a pattern to fall back on rather than having to come up with a new idea. It can be quite disorienting underwater with little light, especially in rushing water where the movement of the water is likely a stronger force than your natural buoyancy.

I have no objection to making a fear will save part of it. I agree that the basic difficulty wouldn't go up that much provided you could see the bubbles. The will save to calm yourself may, but even then I doubt it would be a problem for most of a group at the level given in the original post.

The skill system isn't fine grained enough to give an exact skill. Survival is the closest match since it deals with natural hazards.


I'd say Survival Check DC 10. Let some air out and follow the bubbles. I'd use a similar mechanism for those stuck in an avalanche attempting to determine what direction they should spend time digging in. While blowing bubbles won't work for an avalanche...spitting would.

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